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MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
I live in a HOA of 65 seperate homes with city owned streets and large lots. I know that I have read on this site that many HOA's allow home bsinesses as long as you can't see them, hear them, or smell them.

Does anyone agree with this and what would be the reasons for not allowing people to work out of their homes?
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Mike,

I think the general consensus is that home businesses are OK as long as they don't interfere with the peace and tranquility of the neighborhood.

Ah, but what does "interfere" mean?

That seems to be the spannard in the works.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
There could be a lot of reasons to not allow somebody to work out of their home. The typical example given is if somebody wanted to set up an automotive repair shop in his garage. The traffic from the customers, the noise from the engines, and the smell of the motor exhaust would have a negative impact on the neighbors. But it doesn't have to be a direct business like that. In my neighborhood a couple of years ago we had one person who set up a rock cutting / polishing shop in his garage (think granite counter tops). He didn't have customers coming to his shop so we didn't have the traffic impact, but he would start up the grinders/polishers/cutters at 7:00AM and often keep working until 9:00PM (or later). The noise from all of that was completely unacceptable. He got shut down fairly quickly.

On the other side there are a number of people in my neighborhood who do work out of their homes. These are typically people who do office work (accountants, computer programmers, etc) and if they didn't mention it in conversation, we would have no idea that they work out of the home. Since there is essentially no impact on the neighbors (other than having somebody home all day to keep an eye on things), there would be no reason to restrict their working out of the home.

Then there are those in the gray areas. Child care (traffic in the morning and afternoon, potentially a lot of noise), home marketing (delivery trucks), etc. These types of businesses may or may not be acceptable depending on your neighborhood. Even with large lots there may be an impact on the neighbors.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I think John hit it on the heard - interfering with tranquility. And that would have to be proven, subject to the "exposure" of the business.

The neighbor's kids are loud, but only if I knew she had a daycare business could I have a case.

The accountant is quiet, but client cars come and go all week.

MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
So what I'm hearing here is that Most HOA's are open to business's that are not disruptive to the neighborhood?

Does any anyone think that just saying no business of any kind is fair? If so why?
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Two reasons:
1. Burden of Proof
2. Enforcement

Look at the BEHAVIOR (interuption of tranquility) first, then see if it's due to a home business.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Mike,

I'll guess you have a specific situation(s) prompting your queries. Details, please.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
What do that HOA docs say? What kind of business is it? Does the business attract foot traffic? Does it attract more cars that utilize community common areas for parking? What do local zoning laws say about this business?
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
I am a Graphic Designer, I teach at the local University and I do Design work in my home. I have a client in about once every month or two. My house is the one with the fewest cars in the driveway at any given time. This isn't againest the CC&R's. Our officers are changing the CC&R's to say no Buiness of any kind. They are also changing it so that they can park their motor homes in their back or side yards. And they want to have their boats and stuff in their driveways all summer. This seems more disrubtive than most people working out of their homes. Don't you think?
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Mike,

Good answer. Our Board wouldn't have a problem with your situation at all.

But your Board wants to change the CCRs? Typically (see your docs) that will probably require a huge vote (67-75-100%) in favor, and if you don't have experience with how these things sort out, a huge vote is extremely difficult to achieve. With 65 HOs, gathering enough NO votes, esp. from your fellow HOs who might be also working at home, ought to be a walk in the park.
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
The vote is 51% to pass.

How tuff is that?

What should I do to stop it?
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
"OMG!" is the first thing that comes to mind. Re the Boats and RVs - I would dig into the docs. If this is already addressed in the bylaws, it's my understanding that they would have to have usually 2/3 vote of the entire community for this to change. It's it's not addressed in the docs already, the board may pass another rule, but in most Single Family (non-condo) communities, the docs are written so that if the community gets a petition of 10% of the owners, they can call for a special vote on this (even after the board makes the change). If the entire community votes on this and (in our case) gets a 51% majority vote to overturn the board's ruling, then the board must throw out their new rule. Criminy! Boats belong in Marinas and boataminiums and RV's belong in storage yards or out behind the barn on some farm, but please NOT in an attractive Single Family community.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
The same petition process usually would apply to the issue of them voting to ban all businesses. They're loony! What do the docs currently say about businesses?
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
This is already addressed in the bylaws, in fact according to the bylaws we have at this time we are not supposed to have anything in our drive ways at night. This might be alittle tuff for 4-5 car families. Nothing is supposed to be stored in the yard unless it can't be seen. As for the boats and other recreational stuffin the drive way, the way their new rule reads is that it can stay in the driveway up to 7 days in preporation for use. To me that means if they plan to use it every weekend then there it sits. I think 2-3 day before use makes more sence.

Any body have some good verbage I can submit?
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
The current document says that that the family residence should not be used for any commercial or business purpose other than traditional home business conducted within the home.
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Heres another question. They say that they will allow home buinesses under limited circumstanes and that it has to be approved by the board. It also says that you can not have employees of any kind. I have freelance writers and designers in my home working from time to time. Why should this be a problem if they are breaking no other rules?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeR on 10/21/2008 11:58 AM
Heres another question. They say that they will allow home buinesses under limited circumstanes and that it has to be approved by the board. It also says that you can not have employees of any kind. I have freelance writers and designers in my home working from time to time. Why should this be a problem if they are breaking no other rules?

I am not saying this is a great arguement, but it is an answer to your question:

Because you signed a contract agreeing that there would NOT be employees working from your home.

bottom line, that's one reason. You agreed to it.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Freelancers are not employees.

Doing work at home and working from home is not a home "business."

You scenario would not and should not fall under a home business.

If it is questionable, then go ahead and get a PO BOX as your business "address."

The burden of proof, then, would be on them to prove you do have a home business.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

This is what my Tennessee documents say--

"No trade or business may be conducted in or from any Unit, except that an owner or occupant residing in a unit may conduct business activities within the unit so long as: (a) the exhistance or operation of the business's activity is not apparent or detectable by sight, sound,or smell from outside of the unit. (b) the business activity conforms to all zoning requirements for the property (c) the business activity does not involve persons coming onto the property who do not reside in the property or door to door solicitation of residents of the property and (d) the business activity is consistant with the residental character and does not constitute a nuisance or a hazardous or offensive use, or threaten the safety of the other residents. WHEW!)
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Brian, I didn't agree to this. I've lived in this HOA for 12 years. The no employee part is what they are proposing.
MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Donna,

Explain what is ment under C in your outline
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Regarding the 7 day rules - Sounds excessive. We had our county create a residental parking district and as far as Large Trucks, RVs and Motorhomes were concerned, there is a 48 hour clause. " Exemptions include: vehicles used by federal, state or local public agencies to provide services; commercial vehicles discharging passengers, performing work or providing services; vehicles temporarily parked, for up to 48 hours, for the purpose of loading, unloading or preparing for a trip. See the Code of the County of Fairfax, Chapter 82, Article 5B for more on the program and exemptions. For additional information contact us via our e-mail contact form."
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Mike,

" c) the business activity does not involve persons coming onto the property who do not reside in the property or door to door solicitation of residents of the property "

The Developer intends to not have persons coming and going into a unit for the purpose of doing business there, such as customers. The second part? Your guess is as good as mine. I took it to mean vendors coming to the property. DUNNO!

MikeR (Utah)
Posts: 68
Posted:
Thank you Donna
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Mike,
Anytime. Actually my Tennessee Association Documents are pretty darn good and fair which was a suprise to me after coming from Florida and dealing with 3 different mega sets of documents from down there. Kudos Mr. Developer(so far as we are far from buildout and turnover)
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
sorry mike, misread.. i saw the present tense wording, and assumed.

as for the second part of part c, i read that to mean you can't go door to door within your HOA soliciting business for your home business.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
As I see it, writing a rule prohibiting all home business would be unenforceable because enforcement would require an invasion of privacy. And these types of rules have been completely struck down then allowing any and every business until the documents can be amended to an enforceable rule.

Also, the current rule of allowing "traditional home businesses" is not well written. I would consider daycare a traditional home business. And yet, that is often one of the more problematic businesses. For that matter, many a carpenter is home based as well as many plumbers.

Then there is the whole issue of when is it a home business and when is it simply working from home? For instance, I can do most everything that my job entails (outside dealing with the interruptions) from home. Currently I don't do so much because of kids. But when I do work from home is that a "home business?"

Some people see the difference as coming down to a tax deduction. But that is certainly an invasion of privacy.

I think a better means of defining acceptable business is to look at sight, sound, smell, and traffic. And a couple visits a month is not distinguishable from other visitors. My neighborhood defines one car a day as permissible traffic. The thing is that this is measurable. It also happens that at this level nobody will typically notice.

I would look again at your documents. These restrictions should be in the covenants, not the bylaws. And typically (though not always) the covenants have a higher level to change then the bylaws.

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