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MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
It's reports like these that fan the flames of bad attitude for HOAs!!

http://tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article847365.ece

Here's the first few graphs:

BAYONET POINT — On Friday morning, Joseph Prudente put on a pair of shorts and his "Grandpa Gone Wild" T-shirt. He took off his wedding band and put his heart medication in a plastic Wal-Mart bag.

Then his daughter drove him to jail. Grandpa had time to do.

His crime? He had disobeyed a court order that he sod the lawn at his Beacon Woods home.

His bail? Zero.

Prudente, 66, must stay in the Pasco County jail in Land O'Lakes until the required sod work is completed, under a September court order signed by Circuit Judge W. Lowell Bray.

"He's in prison for God knows how long because we can't afford to sod the lawn," said his sobbing daughter, Jennifer Lehr.

Prudente has owned a home in the deed restricted community since 1998. The covenants require homeowners to keep their lawns covered with grass.

Earlier this year, the Beacon Woods Civic Association took Prudente to court after he failed to install new sod on his browning lawn, which had withered after his sprinklers broke. The association had already sent letters telling him to resod his front and back yards by certain dates.

In an interview at the jail Friday evening, Prudente said he thought he had made a good financial hardship case to the association: His adjustable rate mortgage went up an extra $600 a month. Wachovia repossessed his Toyota Scion. His daughter and her two young children, who had fallen on hard times, moved in with him and his wife, Pat.

"To me, keeping the house is more important than the grass," said Prudente, a retired registered nurse from New York. "I just ignored them."

He ignored them, too, after the association filed a complaint in court. He ignored a court order in May, signed by Bray, giving Prudente 30 days to sod the yard.

In June, the court also awarded the association $795 in fees, which included a $645 attorney's fees and a $150 fee for "an expert witness."

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

Sigh.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
He's out now. Others in the area heard about it and tons of people all chipped in and resodded his entire yard for him. They did other landscaping, too. They also repaired a busted sprinkler. While he sat in jail he had no idea this was going on.

When his ride came to pick him up from the jail he asked if they could give a ride to another inmate who was also just released because she had no one to take her home. They did.

They pulled up in front of his house, he got out, looked at what had been done....and he wept.

Thank God there are still some good people out there.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
True.

But I'm still of the opinion that he brought this on himself by IGNORING ALL THE NOTICES, including the one from the court.

Could the HOA have been more lenient? Maybe. But they would have had to have him meet them halfway to even get that conversation going.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
although it's not as good a headline, the truth is, grandpa didn't go to jail for not doing his lawn, he went to jail because HE IGNORED A JUDGES DIRECT ORDER.

not only did he fail to appear in court, once a judgement was determined, he failed to abide by it, and even then, once the judge gave him one more chance, he failed to do anything about that.

Unless you are a member of the executive branch, you better not try ignoring a judge's directives. it doesn't work too well for the average guy on main street.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

I was also going to point out about there are two sides to every story. And Grandpa decided to follow his own beat and not do the right thing and straighten this out the right way. So he paid the concequences for his stubborness. There are always ways to get help when you are in dire need.
BryanG1 (Florida)
Posts: 43
Posted:
Beacon Woods is one of the most stringent HOA's in Pasco County. They are anal about EVERYTHING. You couldn't even get me to live there if you bought ten houses in there for me.

Granted, as others have said, this guy should have followed the orders of the court, but when you're just trying to keep your house and having trouble doing that, I can't see how you're going to get the money to fix your lawn.

I'd have to check case rule, but I think there have been cases where HOA's in Florida have been told by SWIFTMUD that there's not a whole lot they can do about brown lawns because homeowners are only allowed to water once a week as homes in Pasco are still under watering restrictions.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
in another story, the judge semi-admitted that had the defendant even bothered to show up to court, the outcome would have been much different (ie, more in favor of him, less to the HOA), but when the defense is silent, there's not much choice for a judge than rule in favor of the plaintiff.

I will admit to being a bit of a hard nose about all these "poor people" but here's a list of things the guy could have done to change his situation:

bothered to go to court
asked for help
had his daughter/son-in-law pitch in with either money or labor, since they were living there
asked his neighbor to borrow a garden hose to water the lawn he had
asked someone if they had spare sprinkler parts, and could help him fix his sprinkler
made an effort to fix his sprinkler in any way
bought a home he could afford, without an ARM

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I completely agree, Brian.

These sections of the story are particularly telling for me:

"It is clear to the Court that the ability to avoid incarceration is well within the Defendant's grasp," Bray wrote.

And --

"Many orders and judgements … would be absolutely meaningless if they could not be enforced by a judge's contempt power," he said. "This case is an example of what happens when someone defies an order entered by a judge in our country."

And --

Prudente's family said the case had gone too far. Pat Prudente said she and her husband knew they had chosen to live in a community with restrictions. "But they shouldn't have this much power," she said.

The point is, the Prudente's wanted to show THEIR power, too. They believed, wrongly, that even though they had chosen to live in such a community, they didn't need to pay attention to the rules. They also believed, wrongly, that they also did not need to regard a judge's orders.

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
This is actually happening all over down here in Florida. We're restricted to watering ONE day per week. Whether we have a well, (reclaimed water) in some areas or city water.

HOA's are coming down on people with brown lawns; even though the people can't water. People try to use different types of lawns---plants; rock gardens; anything but grass or sod and the HOA's restrict that, too.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
That's going to be an issue, I'm sure.

But this isn't about a "cracking" down like that.

This case went on for upwards of a year, where the man simply REFUSED to attempt any efforts to "fix" his lawn.

He took the position, "my sprinkler is broke; I'm broke; so sue me."

So they did.

The point here is his repeated ignoring of the problem and his willful disregard that ANYONE, including a judge, had any "power" over him.

In effect, he blew this into a control issue. And he lost.

HOAs in Florida and elsewhere will definitely have to face this issue and they would be well advised to work with their communities (their residents) to come up with an answer that the community feels is appropriate.

In the meantime, the message here is, if you get a notice, DON'T IGNORE IT.

This is true regarding creditor notices, violation notices, doctor's report notices, ANY notice you get.

It's always in your best interest to at a minimum RESPOND. It's the first step toward resolution.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
While there are plenty of HOA abuse cases, I don't feel this is a legitimate one. It appeared to me that they tried to work with the guy. And then when that failed they filed a court case. It isn't the HOA's fault the guy decided to ignore the summons to court. It isn't their fault the judge ordered him jailed for contempt.

One thing people don't often realize is that in many a court case, the outcome is completely out of the hands of the person initiating the action. The HOA simply want and asked the judge to do something. The judge was understandably upset when grandpa decided he needn't be bothered with that stuff.

It would not have cost the guy but a little gas to show up and plead his case. I think there are many more deserving people of the efforts put forth to get this guy out of jail.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
It's cases like this that give HOAs a bad name. The press never tells the whole story; they're in the business of sensationalizing an issue. All most people see is "Grampa Goes To Jail for Brown Lawn".
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Anna,

Reading about Grandpa and his brown lawn and then you noted that HOAs restrict people trying to use the rocks and other types of plants and lawns is now covered by the 2007 Statute changes on Xeriscapeing. There is an ongoing case near Parrish , on the west coast of a homeowner going Xeriscape and his HOA taking him to court.

Not knowing all of the details but did they or did they not apply and get denied by their ACC for the change? That might be the difference but I think that they were denied to go Xeriscape and they did it anyhow. I would hope that the State steps in and protects the H.Os on this one. Water will be the next major issue that Florida will face down the road.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

I am bored today so I copied the Statute re: my above post. It's as simple as it gets so why do people have a hard time understanding it? The glitch is that the date for enforcement is after 2001.

Fl. Statute 720:3075 PROHIBITED CLAUSES IN ASSOCIATION DOCUMENTS

4) Homeowners' association documents, including declarations of covenants, articles of incorporation, or bylaws, entered after October 1, 2001, may not prohibit any property owner from implementing Xeriscape or Florida-friendly landscape, as defined in s. 373.185(1), on his or her land.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Donna, don't worry. Once the polar icecap melts from global warming and the oceans rise; most of Florida won't have to worry about watering. (:>)

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
donna points out that florida is leading many states in requiring xeniscaping be allowed even if contrary to CC&R's, and that's great.

however, xeniscaping is not simply letting everything go to pot or die. It is an active landscape technique that minimizes water usage by replacement and/or use of low water native/non-native plants.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

And it includes using rock gardens, succulants and water storage like rain barrels and cisterns.

As a Master Gardener for my County up here, I am very involved in the Xeriscaping. There is a HOA here that took a resident to court because she did just what you said, let the yard got to pot.

Our County AG Agent went to court by suppeona from the woman but he did not help her case because the photos of her property showed yard havoc amongst the plants. YES!!! there is the right way to do this without upsetting the neighborhood.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Usually things come down to money. It is easy to judge and say the guy should do this or that, or not have ignored the HOA but if he is using up his income for food, mortgage, meds and has none left, but also is embarassed to admit he didn't have the money what the .....
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DJ1 on 10/14/2008 4:18 PM
Usually things come down to money. It is easy to judge and say the guy should do this or that, or not have ignored the HOA but if he is using up his income for food, mortgage, meds and has none left, but also is embarassed to admit he didn't have the money what the .....

I'm throwing the B.S. flag.

This guy just didn't "ignore" the HOA, he ignored every single notice, every single hearing, including the judge and the judge's order.

This isn't just a case of a man who was "oh woe is me, I have no $$$, what shall I ever do?!"

This was a case where the guy figured "I'm broke, these guys have no power over me. F'em."

Basically.

Again, this didn't happen overnight and this wasn't a surprise out of left field. This took months and months and months and notice after notice and hearing ad nauseum.

At what point wouldn't a rational person think to himself, "Gee, maybe I better at least stand up in front of the judge and give my side of the story."

Instead, he gave the judge the finger. And ignored the judge's order. And thought, I guess, he would just continue throwing away letters and notices until....when, I wonder?

By the way, I notice that there was the remnants of a child's pool or yard toy of some kind in the yard.

My guess, if he had enough $$$ for toys, he could probably spring for a hose and $5.00 sprinkler from Home Depot.

If he really WAS that "destitute" my guess is a simple handing over of his tax returns and his bank account balances would have been relevant to the judge. . ..

Oh wait. That's right. He didn't bother to show up!!
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Yeah, this guy is certainly NOT the poster child for HOA abusive boards! However, the press will play this up as though he is. Most people will never know the true story even if some it does get into the press at a later date. They only remember what they first read or heard and, of course, the caption: "Grampa Goes to Jail for Brown Lawn"!!!!
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Michele,

Sure he should have shown up but IF he doesn't have the money (just because there are toys in the yard doesn't mean HE bought them) showing up probably won't make a difference. If he ain't got the bucks he can't pay. It took neighbours/friends to accomplish the task the HOA wanted.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
DJ,

I would think the judge may have ruled differently if he had shown up and pled his case. By not showing up, he gave the impression that he just didn't care. Most judges have any use for a defendent who doesn't have the courtesy to show up in court.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
DJ, talk of HOA's being pseudo governments that some have posed in recent threads aside; the HOA simply does not have the power to put someone in jail for not following the rules. Judges however do have the power when they are ignored to incarcerate someone, which is what happened in this case. And Mr. Prudente as a retired professional person should have been very aware of it. He simply took the tack of ignoring not only the trial but the judge's order and paid the price.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I realize that toys in the yard doesn't necessarily mean he bought them.

Then again, it doesn't mean he didn't, either, and, if there are people there capable of playing on the lawn, there are people there capable of whipping out a hose and watering it from time to time.

My point is that they found a way to ensure the kids were entertained. How much harder was it to find a way to water your yard every once in a while?

The answer is: Not.

To make the case that you are somehow too destitute to water your yard from time to time, well, that dog won't hunt, and I think THAT'S the reason he never showed up. He had NO VALID reason.

After all, it only became an issue of money when he couldn't afford to re-sod. And he only needed to re-sod because he LET the grass wither to begin with:

"he failed to install new sod on his browning lawn, which had withered after his sprinklers broke."

So even before it got so bad that the yard had to be completely re-sodded, he was ignoring the maintenance. Because his "sprinklers broke."

It didn't say his hose broke. And even if it did, he could have borrowed a hose from a neighbor and, since his daughter and her kids had nothing better to do, one of them could have stood there with a hose from time to time to give the yard a little water.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
The whole thing is that he didn't bother talking to the judge and that is what got him in trouble. Regardless of the rest. If he had talked to the judge, he quite possibly could have gotten away with reseeding his lawn and using a normal sprinkler to water.

But Michele you might also have pointed out that one need not actually stand there the entire time the yard is being watered. One can set the sprinkler and go do something else for awhile.

My parents had a nice lawn and their system was a sprinkler on a hose.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Can't afford water, pray for rain!
MagdaS (Florida)
Posts: 32
Posted:
Re: Grandpa's broken sprinkler...

Our monthly maintenance fee includes sprinkler maintenance and repairs. However, we have many people in their upper 70s and 80s who do not know that their watering system needs checking. The HOA does not have a program to check those on an ongoing basis. They will come and repair the sprinklers of specifically called to do it.

As someone pointed out, with the ongoing water shortages and restricted watering schedules it is important to keep an eye out for cases like Grandpa and be an "interfering neighbor" and report to management. All ours takes is a work order. Grandpa might not like it at the time but seems to me in the long run it would help.

How about it, neighbors?

MagdaS
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Magda,

Is this a service to single family residences or do you live in a condo? I can't see the justification for such a service in my 1,702 member single-family home HOA.
AbelP (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Seems like another owner didn't bother to read or understand the terms of his mortgage. If you sign up for an ARM and can't afford to pay more than what you are already paying. Then you shouldn't have bought the home to begin with. Seems like a bad financial situation that will eventually end up in forclosure. The daughter should either step in and pay the bills or sell the home because if he can't afford to pay for sod then it's just a matter of time before they forclose.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Quote:
Seems like another owner didn't bother to read or understand the terms of his mortgage. If you sign up for an ARM and can't afford to pay more than what you are already paying. Then you shouldn't have bought the home to begin with.

Unfortunately many people are in This boat. There were many mortgage brokers selling this. The prevailing thought being that by the time The ARM would reset the owner could refinance. The owner was supposed to pay on time and increase their credit rating. Also in some areas PMI would not be needed as the property values were sky rocketing. In some insane cases a property would actually go from 100% finance to 20% equity in Three years.

Of course now the mortgage money isn't flowing freely. And while some people did work to improve their credit, many kept to their old ways and even accumulated more debt. And They didn't pay on time like they should. So they were sold junk.

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