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KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Our HOA President just sent an e-mail about our next HOA meeting date. In it she said that a letter would be going out to all homeowners about washers and dryers (an issue I brought up in July). She prefaced it by saying that the issue WILL NOT be discussed at the next meeting.

My Question: Can they limit what can and can not be discussed during the homeowners open forum?

My Rant: I got a copy of the letter early (today) and it basically reads that no washers and dryers will be approved by the board to be installed (in future), any washers and dryers currently installed that do not have board approval need to be removed by December 31st, and any approved (three H/O’s- including the HOA Presidents) "the board will wrestle with the remaining issues with approved washers and dryers." To me this says: We will give everyone the pretense that we actually talked about this issues but nothing will come of it. I mean why not make a decision universally then send the letter.

So while they "wrestle" with this subject we, homeowners, can't ask any questions about it, or at least shouldn't expect a response.

Attached to this letter is a letter from a plumbing company that says our plubming is crap and can't support the water from the washers...
KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Okay, this is OT, but I had to add this...

I just got a copy of April's meeting notes and they notes 119 units as delinquinet on payments to the HOA management company, that's $26K a month that they are not getting.

Wow, and not they want to be jerks and take away ameneties from homeowners, but give special favors to the president by letting her keep her washer and dryer (at the cost to us homeowners).
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I would consider a recall of your president. If not, then she should not be elected again when her term is up.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
While I agree, once again, with Kirk, the answer to your question is, yes. Topics can be limited in an open forum. Whoever calls the meeting can set the rules for discussion. As an outside example, would you want to attend a forum if the discussion devolved into a debate about cake recipes?

Now about the plumbing. That is a huge issue in older high rises. I have first hand knowledge. When people want to remodel their apartments and add a washer or a garbage disposer, the entire waste water system situation needs to be considered. In older buildings, the waste water system is not designed to handle such loads.
KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Hi All,

Thanks for the replies. I agree that she needs to be recalled, sooner rather then later. I wouldn't have such a big issue with the removal of washers and dryers, except she and her freinds are getting special treatment by being allowed to keep their washers and dryer and at the cost to homeowners. That to me is not fair.

I think all rules should be enforced equally. Does the HOA have a responsability to enforce rules so that they are fair and consistant?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kim,

I would research the Davis-Stirling Act. I'm not sure if CA has an open meeting law. But in AZ, the Open Meeting Law gives the members the right to speak b/4 a vote is taken on all issues. The washer/dryer issue could not be discussed in a closed (executive) meeting, so at some point the members would have the ability to state their views. The board Pres cannot just say there will be no member input on this issue! Check your state laws!

But, regardless of whether or not a state law is being broken, IMO, this board pres needs to go! She appears to be self-serving and not at all interested in doing what is beneficial -- and fair -- to the community.
KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
I could not agree more with you. I am currently writing a letter and submitting the arch form which I am certain will be denied...I am asking their decision to be fair and unbiased, but we shall see what happens...this si really very sad all they are doing is creating more tension and alienation of the board from homeowners.

KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
If/When I get the letter replying to our Arch form stating we were declined approval, can I follow up with this?

Civil Code §1354. Enforcement Rights, Attorneys' Fees
(a) The covenants and restrictions in the declaration shall be enforceable equitable servitudes, unless unreasonable, and shall inure to the benefit of and bind all owners of separate interests in the development. Unless the declaration states otherwise, these servitudes may be enforced by any owner of a separate interest or by the association, or by both.
(b) A governing document other than the declaration may be enforced by the association against an owner of a separate interest or by an owner of a separate interest against the association.
(c) In an action to enforce the governing documents, the prevailing party shall be awarded reasonable attorney's fees and costs.

Political Dictionary: equity

(1) Even-handed treatment. Equity requires that relevantly similar cases be treated in similar ways. For example, two persons doing the same job in the same way with similar results for the same employer would expect the same pay. Again, it would be inequitable if two individuals committed the same crime in similar circumstances, but received quite different sentences. Equity is therefore closely connected to equality, and to the rule of law. Controversy arises from the delineation of relevant similarity: the notions of equity and precedent both raise this problem.
(2) An older meaning of equity referred to the need to modify the consequences of a strict application of the law to avoid unfair or unconscionable outcomes. From the sixteenth to the nineteenth century, some English courts were specifically designated as ‘equity’ courts in contrast to those dealing with statute and common law; since 1873 all English courts are supposed to follow the legal rules of equity.
KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
I have another question, by stating that the topic of W&D won't be discussed, isn't that an infingment on our 1st Amendment rights? I know this is far reaching, but still...
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kim,

Yes, it is far-reaching; constitutional rights do not come into play when dealing with HOAs. An HOA is a private corp; not a government entity.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
it's been said in pieces by many others, but in general:

the chairperson of the meeting sets the agenda, meaning they decide what business is done (and conversely, isn't done) in the meeting. Frequently, there are set topics/items that must be included, either by law or by the company's decision.

USUALLY, there is a time in the meeting agenda for input from the general floor (shareholders). This is usually a few minutes per person where they can speak to the board about issues/concerns, in a controlled manner. THe board almost never acts upon these comments DURING THE MEETING, but the comment period may create some action items for the future (like inclusion on the next agenda, etc.).

Absent state laws to the contrary, the board has no obligation to allow members to speak freely at a business meeting of the board, but most boards should and will allow it, if the process is value added and not abused/abusive (based on past actions).

Think of it this way: I own stock in Walmart, but I can't just pop into a Walmart Board meeting and demand to speak about whatever I want. There's a process to be heard.
KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
So even during our "open forum" they can limit topics? Well, I hope they don't limit them all the time...

I know the Pres doesn't want the topic to come up because that will lead to dicussions about her getting special treatment.

It's seems like homeowners have very little rights...
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Kim - I recall this subject matter submitted before by you.

Wasn't there was a valid reason why the Board had to stop all NEW washer and dryer applications?? It involved the idea that the complex was not able to accept ANY MORE sanitary sewer loads that would result from the additional NEW washers.

I'd feel better about your post if you printed the motion that the Board passed that states the reason for this "edict" that - according to you - has no merit.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
And yes, the president can refuse to recognize a speaker or declare the speaker out of order who starts a discussion on what he/she considers "dilatory", such as a re-hash of the same issues regarding a previously passed motion.

KimM8 (California)
Posts: 109
Posted:
Hi Susan,

It's not that they are not only not allowing NEW washers and dryers to be installed but that they are telling homeowners who have them now to remove them.

I will find and post their exact wording/letter I received in just a bit, I have to retype it all because it's a PDF so I can't copy and paste it here.

I think my questions would be better understood if I started a thread about conistant rule enforcement versus the W&D issue by it's self.

Also, I agree that the pres can decide not to respond to questions on an issue they have rehashed, but to say to homeowners that they can't bring it up is something I view as entirely different.

What would constitute their decision to be a "motion"?

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Homeowners CAN bring it up - as a motion to RECIND or AMEND a previous motion passed by the Board. But if your motion is dilatory,(not workable, or absurd) then be prepared to have it not even brought to a vote. The motion can be rules "out of order" because of a legal reason (You municipality says no???)

SOMEWHERE in the mintutes, there should be a decision (from a motion) to establish or enforce this rule that says no more new washers and all installed as of a certain date have to be removed.

Can you find that?

If not, then you CAN bring this up and ask the president how they came to the official ruling that affects some residents and not the others.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
technically, a board can indeed limit a topic during an open forum session... as noted, they can motion to ignore it, declare it null/void, fail to recognize the speaker, have the sargeant at arms remove the speaker, ask the speaker to yield the floor, or take the floor...

However, all of those are really tough to defend actions that leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Much, much , much simpler is to allow everyone their 3 minutes to present their thoughts, and while they speak, bob the head occasionally, utter a "hmmmmm", and then tell them their three minutes are up, and move on.

Note: i am not advocating the ignoring of every member's free speech> just saying that you can, as a board, give them their time and simply ignore their input, should you choose, without being confrontational. Sure, it's passive-aggressive, but if you are heading down this route frequently, you probably have a lot of other issues in the board to work out without adding to them by being harsh to your members.

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