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GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
I want to pick up on the concept of reasonableness when it comes to homeowners associations and communities and neighbors.

There is a near-classic commentary about reasonableness from a 1991 California case, Schild v. Rubin(1991) 232 Cal.App.3d 755. I think it ought to become the standard, and be read at every homeowner association board meeting as an invocation.
"A reasonable person must realize that complete emotional tranquility is seldom attainable, and some degree of transitory emotional distress is the natural consequence of living among other people in an urban or suburban environment. (Fletcher v. Western National Life Ins. Co., supra, 10 Cal.App.3d at p. 397.) A reasonable person must expect to suffer and submit to some inconveniences and annoyances from the reasonable use of property by neighbors, particularly in the sometimes close living of a suburban residential neighborhood.

"[T]he resolution of the issue of a private nuisance involves the conflicting interests of landowners. 'The right of one to make such lawful use of his property as he may desire must be applied with due regard to the correlative right of the other to be protected in the reasonable enjoyment of his property.' Each case must be decided upon its own facts, ... '[E]very annoyance or disturbance of a landowner from the use made of property by a neighbor does not constitute a nuisance. The question is not whether the plaintiffs have been annoyed or disturbed ... but whether there has been an injury to their legal rights. People who live in organized communities must of necessity suffer some inconvenience and annoyance from their neighbors and must submit to annoyances consequent upon the reasonable use of property by others.'"


Amen.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
George,
I think the little line in you post speaks volumes.
"Each case must be decided upon it's own facts...." To me that seem to be reasonable. Who decides may not be reasonable. It makes it more complicated and reason may take a back seat. The commentary about reasonableness seems to me to raise as many questions as it answers. Also, some might contend that what is reasonable for California won't fly in Alaska (let's make that Utah). Of course it can be argued that you can't define reasonableness between dissenting parties. This is a big chunk to swallow and personally, I'd rather call the cops and let them sort it out. I do agree we must expect that our neighbors are going to impinge upon our lives and we all make adjustments daily and in different circumstances.
I recall being in China in 84 (I think)and the streets teemed with people, especially in the evenings in the shopping districts. Cars were minimal and bicycles typical transportation. But the sheer numbers of people out walking the streets just to see the sights of lighted neon and brightly lite stores was overwhelming. But the crowd moved like countless schooling fish, back and forth and heither and yon. Now that was reasonableness manifested by the desire to see and be seen and it seemed to work. No doubt each stroller had to accomodate the other or the whole thing would have ground to a stop. Maybe we should be trying to indentify unreasonableness.

How about the topic of reasonableness when we elect new board members of the board and offer them no proof that the financial status of association is correct. That to me is; unreasonable to expect a new member to be welcomed to the Board, and "Bam" they have fiduciary responsibility of the finances. Ever hear of some sort of insurance to new board members that all is well financially? Some statement of financial stability?

Some one said if you don't know anything about the conversation, change the subject.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
George, I went looking for the case you cited to see just what it was about and while I never did find the actual case, I did see that it was often quoted in many other decisions. I did however find a citation to another Schild v. Rubin which if it is the same paring could explain a lot; it seems that both of the parties are attorneys.

Schild v. Rubin, 283 Cal. Rep. 533 (1991) Dispute among neighbors over kids basketball playing in the back yard. When spraying the offending players with a garden hose didn't work they wound up in court, with expert testimony from an acoustical engineer. The neighbors were both lawyers.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Indeed! Lawyers can be among the most petty and unreasonable people. That is why it pains me to see how much involvement they have in homeowners association affairs. Far too often, we become unreasonable when we see our role as serving the law, rather than serving other people.

The law is one thing. Justice and fairness is something else entirely.

Reasonableness means asking if the fight is really worth the cost. It means being flexible, not taking a hard, unyielding stand on matters that are unimportant or insignificant in the long run. It means patience.

Sometimes, perhaps more often than not, being reasonable means forbearance. It means being neighborly even when the law and rules on your side. It means looking past the strict terms of the law and rules.

It means thoughtfulness and tolerance of people and actions you don't particularly like.

It means not holding grudges.

It means doing a bit more, going a bit farther than is necessary or required.

For board members it means being a servant leader. It means balancing the needs of the community with individual rights.

Sometimes reasonableness means sacrificing a bit of yourself even when you are on the right side.

It means asking the same question Rodney King asked.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all,
I have great hope that none will argue with George's synopsis. But if they do I will take his advice.
JonathanS2 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Well said, George. May all members of all BODs share your sentiments.

Of course, I live in the real world so I know that isn't the case...the ACC head on my board is a "rules are the rules" type.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JonathanS2 on 09/24/2008 6:07 AM
Well said, George. May all members of all BODs share your sentiments.

Of course, I live in the real world so I know that isn't the case...the ACC head on my board is a "rules are the rules" type.

Johnathan,

I agree with George also, but I don't believe he meant bending the rules is a sign of being reasonable. At least I hope he didn't! I'm also a firm believer that if there are rules to follow they must be followed whether you agree with them or not. It appears your ACC head believes the same thing, right? Frankly, you should be happy he does; it means he's doing his job.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
here i am sitting in my own little corner of the internet, and suddenly, George comes along with all this reasonableness garbage, and spouting off on how some inconvenience is a price we pay for social living, and that one person's use of property may impinge slightly on another's enjoyment, etc..

I hate that! All i wanted to do was sit here and enjoy the peace and quiet of HOATalk, and george starts hounding me. Have you noticed that he continually posts in threads after I do? I post, and then he posts. Sometimes, he even posts in threads before me, knowing that I wanted to post in them. Then, when things are all nice and quiet, he starts up some new thread, raising cain and making problems all over about how we are supposed to put up with minor tribbles and foibles. Well not me! I bought a spot here at HOATalk specifically to keep away from George and others like him, those kind of people who always post and contribute. I want my internet to be quiet, to go back the way it was before his kind moved into this place, where i could sit back and enjoy the peace and quiet, and didn't have to read his threads and ideas and constantly have to worry and wonder where he was going to post next, and what "great idea" he was going to have.

It's too much, and i plan to send a strongly worded letter to the directors of HOATalk, and ask them to enforce the no posting rule on George, and make him sit quietly and not enjoy his time in the neighborhood for a bit. I know there's a rule somewhere about it, and once i find my HOATalk rule book, i am going to request someone else throw it at him. It's my internet, and I want to enjoy it the way I want, without all the George's in the world!

JonathanS2 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 09/24/2008 7:41 AM
Posted By JonathanS2 on 09/24/2008 6:07 AM
Well said, George. May all members of all BODs share your sentiments.

Of course, I live in the real world so I know that isn't the case...the ACC head on my board is a "rules are the rules" type.


Johnathan,

I agree with George also, but I don't believe he meant bending the rules is a sign of being reasonable. At least I hope he didn't! I'm also a firm believer that if there are rules to follow they must be followed whether you agree with them or not. It appears your ACC head believes the same thing, right? Frankly, you should be happy he does; it means he's doing his job.

I'm sure he didn't. Perhaps I misstated. The ACC Chair believes that there is only one type of violation: Major

He suggested fining a homeowner because, in his opinion, their lawn was "more weeds than grass" and he wanted to fine them on a daily basis until the lawn was "fit". I see this as excessive because it can take a very long time to turn a neglected lawn around...possibly years depending on the condition of the lawn.

His reply: "We've taken care of the major issues, now its time to go after the minor ones."

I'm not saying we should bend the rules but that the rules themselves need to be reasonable.

If a homeowner's tree died and they did nothing about it for several months I can see fining them for not. If a homeowner's lawn died due to the drought or improper care but they were working to restore it I can't see fining them as long as they are working on it. That's what I meant by being reasonable.

Hope that makes sense.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Johnathon,

Yes it does. This is an example of an over-zealous board member exerting his power, just because he can! The other board members need to step in and put some common sense into play. Unless weeds are sticking up 1 foot or more, they should be overlooked, especially if in the grass. We only have a small patch of grass in our back yard. If we got rid of all the weeds, we wouldn't have much grass! And, I'm sure that's the case with many, many lawns!
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Georger writes:

>>>Indeed! Lawyers can be among the most petty and unreasonable people.<<<

Really? This based on some new study you've found? Or rather, as my colleagues would put it, is this instead an "ipsi dixit" statement?

Any other broad groups of folks who "can" be among the most petty and unreasonable people come to mind?

Here's the deal: attorneys are advocates. They represent their client's interests to the bsst of their abilities, and within the ground rules.

Substitute Detailed for Petty, and Persistent for Unreasonable, and you might be on to something - what attorneys are supposed to be.

Not that I was asked to opine!
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
But opine you did, and lawyer or not, you do have a seat at the table. And you do make sense.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:

To all,
I have great hope that none will argue with Brians' synopsis. But if they do I will take his advice.

JonathanS2 (Georgia)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Mary,

Thanks.

As for weeds and lawns...I'm from the concrete jungle originally so I can't really tell the difference between Bermuda, Fescue, Zoysia or weeds. To me, if it is green it is a lawn. These suburbanites who can instantly tell you what type of grass you have, what weeds you have, how to get rid of them and what type of trees dropped every single leaf you have on your lawn amaze me.

I think the whole idea of ornamental lawns is a bit outdated in this day of water shortages anyway. I once heard a quote, from someone in Nevada's government when they were asking residents to replace grass with stone in their front yards, "if the only time you walk on it is to mow it, it isn't functional"

I'd love to put in artificial turf but I'm sure that wouldn't fly.

J.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Jonathan,

Perhaps you should start a new trend in GA. Here in AZ, xeriscaping is very popular and grass has been replaced with stone. The stones come in all sizes and colors and really makes for a quite interesting landscape. IMO, much nicer than turf! Xeriscape uses native plants that take very little or no water. We have a 400-500 sq. ft. area that's grass in the back yard, everywhere else, front and back, is stone.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK3 on 09/24/2008 9:00 AM
Georger writes:

>>>Indeed! Lawyers can be among the most petty and unreasonable people.<<<

Really? This based on some new study you've found? Or rather, as my colleagues would put it, is this instead an "ipsi dixit" statement?

No, it's based on being one and working with them for the past 30 plus years, albeit not in the court room, but in the legislative hearing rooms. I have seen the gamut from the incredibly incompetent to the powerfully persuasive. But, I won't disagree with the ipsi dixit label.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnK3 on 09/24/2008 9:00 AM
Georger writes:

>>>Indeed! Lawyers can be among the most petty and unreasonable people.<<<

Really? This based on some new study you've found? Or rather, as my colleagues would put it, is this instead an "ipsi dixit" statement?

Any other broad groups of folks who "can" be among the most petty and unreasonable people come to mind?

Here's the deal: attorneys are advocates. They represent their client's interests to the bsst of their abilities, and within the ground rules.

Substitute Detailed for Petty, and Persistent for Unreasonable, and you might be on to something - what attorneys are supposed to be.

Not that I was asked to opine!

While I'll admit it only anecdotal evidence but could it be something like this behind George's statement.

Lawyer sues drycleaners for $67 million for lost pants

Two years ago, a man in Washington DC took a pair of pants to his local drycleaners to be tailored, but the cleaners lost them. Now he is suing them for $67 million, and here's the kicker, the man is a lawyer.

It is a 2 year court battle between a drycleaner and a very dissatisfied customer suing a mom and pop store owned by the Chueng family for $67 million dollars because he says they lost his favorite pair of pants.

The Chuengs say they offered the owner of the pants $3,000, then $4,600 and finally $12,000 to settle the case.

Roy Pearson is in fact a lawyer and representing himself. So how did he reach that $67 million figure? He says it is about more than just pants, it is consumer fraud. His drycleaner promised satisfaction guaranteed and did not deliver.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
It would be nice if reasonableness and common sense ruled the world but unfortunately what is reasonable for one person is totally unconscionable for another so we have to rely on rules and laws to get along. Are there some that carry it too far? Yes absolutely, just as there are homeowners that look for every little loophole to try and get around honoring the documents they agreed to abide by.

But to somehow think that these problems are limited to HOA living is ridiculous in the extreme. From the boss that insists that things be done just so, according to the company manual written in 1970 even though you know how it could be done better if s/he would just listen to you. To the elected politicians who somehow magically are supposed to be experts on this or that simply by being elected. You want unreasonable rules go online and look at the ridiculous laws that so called professionals have passed and which everyone is supposed to obey or risk being fined for disobeying them.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Where have our sensibilities and reasonableness gone:

    Judge fumes over shrubbery dispute

    A fight over shrubbery in Beacon Woods East has landed in court.

    Friday, 26 Sep 2008, 4:32 PM EDT

    NEW PORT RICHEY - A Pasco County judge is furious about a bizarre foreclosure fight that has become physical.

    The case involves the Beacon Woods East Homeowners' Association and a resident of the neighborhood, George Weber.

    "They have totally run-a-muck, these homeowners' associations," Weber said outside the Pasco County Courthouse Friday.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?c7523161&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1
DonN (Michigan)
Posts: 357
Posted:
Let's face it. Reasonable is a cop-out word used when a person is unable to describe the situation in objective terms. Maybe that is why lawyers like the word. Appropriate is another of those cop-out words. What is reasonable and or appropriate for one person isn't necessarily so for another. Reasonable and appropriate are words in the same category as "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." Robert Pursig wrote about book about the philosophy of "i know it when I see it.": "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance."

The words are also used when one wants to be equivocal while appearing to be reasonable. Check the CAI documents concerning members' rights as examples.

So the next time you use the word reasonable, think about just describing what you want. Just be reasonable about it.

But my favorite is "Be reasonable. Do it my way."

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Don,
You are laying some heavy stuff on us. Hurts my head to try and think this through. However, topics come and go so fast on this site, you really don't even get five minutes of fame around here. Post something in the evening, by morning it is half way down the Board and next day it might be out of sight. I was struck last night with "Obama's" ability to tapdance with words around uncomfortable subjects. I thought McCain did alright but lacked the debating ability of Obama. Not referring to content, just the use of words to dance around and look good. There is a Column writer for the Washington Post named Ellen Goodman, she really has a mastered the art of using words to convey her meanings. Anyway, as they are say of late,"It is was it is."
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Don, you are way out in left field when it comes to your thinking. In legal terms reasonable and appropriate are key to thousands of very important judicial decisions over the years. And what is reasonable today, according to judicial decisions, may not be what is reasonable tomorrow.

People think somehow that law and contracts are black and white. That ain't so, folks. If it were, we wouldn't need judges, and association board would simply be robots. If you live you make judgments, and some of us make better judgments than others. Reasonableness is all about making good discriminatory judgments. There is such a thing as "beyond a reasonable doubt," and a "preponderance of evidence." Neither lives up to absolute certainty.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DonN on 09/27/2008 3:45 PM
Reasonable and appropriate are words in the same category as "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." Robert Pursig wrote about book about the philosophy of "i know it when I see it.": "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance."

Don,
Thanks for reminding me! One of my favorite books
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Brian,

Just in case some of us forgot the rules as to WHO should be posting here, I copied it for all of us as a reminder.

Rules for Posting Messages

Welcome to HOATalk.com!

This is a positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn. This forum is for community association Boards, Committees, Volunteers & HOA Professionals to discuss topics concerning their association duties.

Topics from individual homeowners, who are not acting as association volunteers, are not addressed here & may be removed.

We have only a few other rules:

(1) Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, helpful, positive and friendly.

(2) No Selling: No solicitation, advertising, or selling of any kind is allowed here, except for occasional announcements from official site sponsors.

(3) No Mention of Company/Person Names: In order to fairly enforce (2) and prevent liability, we do not allow the mentioning of any company name or product. Please also do not post the full name of any person.

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Donna,

You noted:

>>>Topics from individual homeowners, who are not acting as association volunteers, are not addressed here & may be removed.<<<

I'm guessing this would include an awful lot of posts here, if it were enforced, as much of the traffic comes from folks who are "simply" members of HOAs with questions. That's how I started out before becoming a volunteer Board member.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

John,
Yes it would include quite a few posters.

I just would like to remind a person or two that they become agressive in many posts. That's not what we do to each other, or at least, not supposed to do. We get called idiots and idiotic answers. Again--not supposed to deal with that. I started to save all of this smart butt answering but I decided to delete it and post this. This poster is smart and there is no debate about that but being treated as having less brain power than the poster, is condescending and belittles people who answer the O.P. I am not sure of their H.O status but I have not seen any evidence of having a Board position. Therefore, I would kindly request that this answer behavior please "LIGHTEN UP!!!
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Donna,

In my limited experience with Internet message boards, I’ve found they universally contain their share of know-it-alls, folks with an excess of time on their hands, attention seekers, sad sacks, chronic complainers, whatever. But they also, as here, include intelligent, un-agended souls simply offering assistance on topics they enjoy and have experience with.

I now consider myself a “regular” here, as I’m sure you do (I mean about yourself, not me). I agree that name-calling and other “unfriendly” behavior has no place, and should be discouraged. But offenders just diminish themselves, and thus their opinions. However, HOATalk is just an Internet message board. Someone taking personal offense to a post? A waste of time, if you ask me. Sticks and stones.

RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all,
Just want to add one thing, and really don't know if it is apropo's here or not. So in general, we all seem to get along, tha's a fact, and maybe that some some effect of how we view some comments. No to defend or dinigrate anyone's post but the above is true.

So I would be very much inclined to accept Donna's comment and Brian's as well within reason and not offensive to anyone. I have the greatest confidence in Donna's words as I do with a lot of posters, but Donna has been around for a long time, and she has earned the respect to be listened to. I am not picking sides as the event will quickly fade into dust. I am just glad when we don't turn this into some kind of esoteric mix of words.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
It has been fascinating to sit quietly for the past couple of days to see how this thread has developed. One of the things I have learned in 30 years of working in public policy is not to take anything said in any forum personally. It is a bit of wisdom that is applicable to all. The person who challenges and castigates your position one day may be your staunchest ally the next. Far from depreciating the discussion, it is a process that strengthens, clarifies and focuses the discussion.

I come back to the inescapable observation that a not insignificant amount of information posted here is inaccurate at best, particularly information that can be fact checked relatively simply. Clearly, there is a great deal of misinformation parading about as fact in the governance of homeowners associations. Unfortunately, when incorrect information is challenged the result can be an ad hominem response. This may be a important factor in the increasing demands for regulation of homeowners associations via legislation. It may be that as Pogo noted in 1971, "we have met the enemy and he is us."
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
I have tyo agree with Brian and Donna. IMO, the guidelines for membership here are far too loose, so there's much too much anti-HOA rhetoric on this website.. So much so you'd have to wonder if someone has a redirect link configured from AHRC. Although I've picked up some great resources in the past and have enjoyed talking with everyone, I'm a little bored with the postings that all seem to come from non-involved HOA members that never have enough information in their first posting, but they in fact DO get an answer to their question, even if there's not enough information in the posting for someone to actualy formulate a corect response, so in that respect, I have to agree with George. Too many assumptions and supositions based on limited information! I'm really not interested in hearing from Harry HOA member. Good luck to everyone!
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Okay,
I am going to stand up and say this because it is IMHO, getting to a point where I am not even interested in opening up or responding to any of your posts. You are a Lawyer--yes we know that. You are intellegent, yes we know that too. But the condescending tones are more than I want to deal with. You are not a Board or Officer in your HOA and your opinions are just that--opinions--just like the rest of us. Thank you for posting. Take over for some of the rest of us.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Donna,
This don't sound like you. Almost sounds like you are sort of admitting we din't do a goodjob. And certainly you were a are a ring leader, which I mean in a complimentary fashion. I also know what I say is nothing but an opinion and wonder if this is somehow realated to listening to the dire prediction by the news service, and then we have this sticky mess with a new administration and saying good bye to George W. and co. It does want to make you throw your hands up and declare, you brought this on yourself you Ninnies, when you get time to die you are just going to be like the rest of us. just you and your belief...........money won't matter.

So Donna, I prescribe a good deep breath and a kind look at your self, you are worthy and worth far more that you seem to want to admit. Besides, if you go, who will defend me when I step in the crap and what then, am I to do. George is ok, and smart but I wouldn't want to lay my head on his shoulder.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Mr Robert.
I am always glad to have you to perk us up and always with your infinite wisdom, to make us aware that ther are mulitple sides to every issue. I am not quitting but will be more selective as to who I will respond to. It is not fun, which this always has been, to now read always from one poster, that most of us do not know what we are talking about, I am suprised that more have not taken this attitude to task. If you read the bold print on the sponsors line, it says that these are opinions, not meant to be legal advice. Therefore, I will not answer any posts except from Florida, where I know the Statutes and what they mean.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Donna,
No argument there about you knowing you stuff. Now, I guess I let it slip because a lot of time I really don't know my stuff. Honestly, I couldn't count the of times I have been wrong, wrong state, wrong fact about HOA when it should be condo, information I have at hand wrong, all kinds of stuff. On the other hand I don't think we can aim for right, I think we all qualify our advice and how the advice is taken and what is done with it, we have no idea, so seldom do we get the begining and end.

An opinion given on this site should not be taken lightly, it could well turn out to be right. Ignore it at your own peril.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Mr Robert,

I know of no one person who is right all of the time. I have been corrected numerous times on this site and those who do it usually do it with copy of or proof of the correctness but they almost always do it without the "attitude" I accept corrections gladly and always will. It's all in the way it's done and that is my last word on this.
How's your wife? Okay we all hope.

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