swimming pool conflict

Started by JoanG • 17 replies • 2234 views

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JoanG (Maryland)
Posts: 29

Posted:

Help!! One homeowner wants to put an in ground pool into his backyard. His backyard backs directly onto another homeowner's lot who has a deck and screened-in sunroom which would over look the pool. The pool would occupy a large part of the backyard-- these are not large lots! -- and the second homeowner does not want to have his view filled by a pool, not to mention the likely increase in activity and noise that will accompany it. In our covenants, it reads, "Only one (1) in ground swimming pool may be constructed on each Lot provided approval is first obtained under this Article II." In another section of Article II the architectural review process is outlined and states, among other things, "The Architectural Review Committee shall consider applications for approval of plans and specifications upon conformity with this Declaration, applicable law and Design Guidelines (of which we have none) , ...including...the effect of the proposed Structure or Alteration on the use, enjoyment and value of other neighboring properties, and/or the outlook or view from adjacent or neighboring properties..."

The neighbor desiring the pool unfortunately didn't speak with his neighbors about his plans -- instead, they saw a construction company laying out a design to work up an estimate for him. We have an Architectural Review form that includes getting sign off from neighbors, but the signoff actually has no legal standing. The neighbor who wants the pool knows he has to go through the review process, as well as get county permits, before construction starts. As a Board member -- president actually -- I would see that clause about the effect on neighboring properties as a legitimate reason to reject the application. While a pool might raise the property value of the home to which it belongs, I'm thinking that it could negatively affect the other folks' property value; not to mention their "enjoyment" and "the outlook or view."

This looks like it could become a major issue. Both of these neighbors are going to fight for their position. How do we, the Board, proceed? Advice???? Please! Thanks.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

ask the offended neighbor to document the loss of value, enjoyment, etc. if the pool were to go in.

Also, ask both to propose solutions: tell the first one that the board is unlikely to approve the pool unless he offers up a couple solutions to "hiding" it or minimizing the impact on the neighbor's view, and tell the other that the board is likely to allow the pool unless he offers up some solutions to hiding or minimizing the impact etc..

make both owners put some effort into the process, don't let them shove the decision and work load onto the board. if neither one is willing to work, compromise, etc., then remember Solomon's dilemma. perhaps it's time to cut the baby in half, and see who blinks.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

To deny a pool just because a neighbor has concerns is nothing that could be won in a court case. If the pool people want a pool and follow all proper procedures and applications, there is nothing in the documents that you stated, can deny them their rights to use their property for a pool.

You have no guidelines so you will need to adopt them for pool landscaping. I can tell you that in Florida, lots are very small and many pools are installed. A perimeter of bushes that are at least 3 foot tall, act as a sound barrier. I would ask the pool applicant, agree in writting, that they will install sound barriers and follow strict hours for any type of noise restrictions coming from the pool. These folks do have rights to use of the property. As for the neighbor who does not want to look at a pool-- I say TOUGH!

JoanG (Maryland)
Posts: 29

Posted:

To me, it looks like competing rights -- the right of the one to use their property and put the pool in, and the right of the other as stated in the covenants, to have the use, enjoyment and value of their property and the outlook or view from their property. The covenants seem to me to be saying both have rights, and the Board is supposed to make the determination. Following Brian's good counsel, we're hoping that the pool-wanting neighbor will try to involve the others in creating landscaping that will make them happy -- maybe arbor vitae to create a privacy screen, and addtional plantings to please the other neighbor. Concessions on both sides...I've got my fingers crossed! But it just doesn't look as simple as Donna suggests. And one might want to consider that the whole culture of having a pool is very different in Florida than in a northern Maryland suburb...

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

Seems like ANYTHING the neighbor did would impact the other neighbor's view.

How about a screen of cedar shrubs along the lot line to screen one neighbor's view from the other?

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Joan,

How big are the lots involved? A pool is a pool, doesn't matter where it is located. Gosh, as I see it, Maryland might use this pool for 6 months of the year verses S. Florida where it is all year long. Unless the pool would block a view of water or a nature trail or something, then I can understand the other homeowner being concerned about blocking his view. But chances are that he is looking at the back of the pools guys house.

They do both have rights but there has to be a limit on neighbors controlling anothers rights to enjoy their own property. This is indeed something that has to be worked out between themselves.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

And this is the reason that we like privacy fences in Texas. Sorry, but I don't think it is legitimate to say to one owner no pool since the other doesn't want it.

Now one thing that I could go for (but doubt you could enforce) is to require the owner installing the pool to pay for a day out of the house if they are using gunite in their pool. The sound of them shooting that stuff is incredibly loud.

JeannieraeO (California)
Posts: 27

Posted:

I think BrianB has the best solution. There are situations that the Board should solve, and there are situations that the board should put back on the neighbors. This is one of them. There's also the benefit that people are more likely to follow through with solutions that they find for themselves.

By the way, if you look at the statistics, pools don't necessarily increase the value of the property. Some potential home buyers consider them a nuisance and expensive to maintain.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

As for the effect on property values, in Dallas area they are considered a "soft" benefit. They are not considered to effect the price of a house either way though they clearly appeal to some buyers (and send others away). Generally in our market a house with a pool will sell a little faster. But that is a generalization not a rule.

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

The info you cited doesn't imply the person who first does something takes precedent over any others who want to do something later. The guy with the deck has an EQUAL right of enjoyment to the guy who wants the pool, not a GREATER right of enjoyment. Just because he put in his deck doesn't now give him that greater right he seems to want.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Joan,

I think DJ has hit the nail on the head regarding members' rights. Frankly, I don't believe in asking what neighbors think when deliberating an A/C request. Neighbors come and go and everyone doesn't have the same opinions. The request should be considered only by what is allowed in the guidelines. Considering the fact that a pool should be somewhat private the board might want to consider some type of screening as a requirement of all pools, not just this one. In fact if I was constructing the pool I would want some type of screening. This is one reason to like the walls that surround our homes in AZ!

JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967

Posted:

I agree with DJ & Mary.

Refusing a valid request from Pool because Sundeck doesn't like how it looks would IMO set a bad precedent. What next? Swing sets? Patio furniture? Shrubs? Volleyball nets?

RW1 (Texas)
Posts: 149

Posted:

If your docs don't prevent pools and he can meet all construction requirements (permits, set-backs, etc.), you must approve. Period.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Joan,
You are reading alot of the same answer as to the pool question and that is IF all of the requirements for approval are met (Those that are written in your Docs) then to deny the installation of the pool would be in error. As I said in my earlier post,this cannot be something that the neighbors should be able to keep from being approved. Every property owner has rights to use of their property within limits. An inground pool is not an ugly building or unsightly structure. The neighbor will have to learn to ease up on what he feels is an obstruction of his viewing space.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

In looking over your original post, you would not be in error to expect the pool owner to screen his pool from the deck owner. But to be honest, the two owners should split the cost of screening since the pool owner may not want to look at the deck either.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quick question:

Did the homeowner who constructed the deck and the sunroom obtain "permission" from the guy who wants to put the pool in?

It would seem that he would not be pleased that, as he would be planning to add a pool later, that he would have his neighbor breathing down his neck while he's enjoying is pool. Looks to me like the neighbor's sunroom adversely impacts the pool-lover's use and enjoyment of HIS property as well.

Could the pool guy have prevented the construction of the deck and sunroom on the same grounds, then? Will you be requiring that the sunroom be removed?

I seriously doubt it.

It would seem to me the other suggestions should be considered carefully.

The Arch Appr Comm would be within their jurisdiction to require that some sort of screening, either by landscaping or other form that is allowed in your neighborhood.

I might TRY to get them BOTH to share the costs, but the reality is that they probably wont.

On the other hand, if the Sunroom guy feels that strongly about it, perhaps he can put his OWN landscaping screen on HIS property at the line.

I disagree wholeheartedly on your assessment here: "I would see that clause about the effect on neighboring properties as a legitimate reason to reject the application." I MIGHT agree, if the request were for something the CC&Rs didn't already cover. Though, as a rule, I am loathe to the "ask yer neighbor if he minds" school of thought. That's a whole 'nother topic and a pretty steep slippery slope, if you ask me.

The point is, if in-ground pools are ALREADY allowed, you would be overreaching to say that they can be DISALLOWED on a case-by-case, on the WHIM or PRESUMPTION of a neighbor who just simply does not like whatever it is that is being requested and claim "use and enjoyment" issues.

Seriously, in my opinion, that gives way more individual power over an over-arching governing document than should be allowed.

When I moved in here, I saw that in-ground pools were allowed. If I don't like them, I should not have moved here. My neighbor read that same CC&R and loves in-ground pools, so he moved here with the clear understanding that he could have one. He shouldn't then be penalized because now he finds out that I don't like them and don't want to live next to one. Should homeowners also not only READ their CC&Rs before purchasing, but then go and canvas all their neighbors to see what things they WILL or WON'T additionally agree to?

That's playing pretty dirty pool, no pun intended!

JoanG (Maryland)
Posts: 29

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 9:29 AM
Quick question:

Did the homeowner who constructed the deck and the sunroom obtain "permission" from the guy who wants to put the pool in?

It would seem that he would not be pleased that, as he would be planning to add a pool later, that he would have his neighbor breathing down his neck while he's enjoying is pool. Looks to me like the neighbor's sunroom adversely impacts the pool-lover's use and enjoyment of HIS property as well.

Could the pool guy have prevented the construction of the deck and sunroom on the same grounds, then? Will you be requiring that the sunroom be removed?

I seriously doubt it.

It would seem to me the other suggestions should be considered carefully.

The Arch Appr Comm would be within their jurisdiction to require that some sort of screening, either by landscaping or other form that is allowed in your neighborhood.

I might TRY to get them BOTH to share the costs, but the reality is that they probably wont.

On the other hand, if the Sunroom guy feels that strongly about it, perhaps he can put his OWN landscaping screen on HIS property at the line.

I disagree wholeheartedly on your assessment here: "I would see that clause about the effect on neighboring properties as a legitimate reason to reject the application." I MIGHT agree, if the request were for something the CC&Rs didn't already cover. Though, as a rule, I am loathe to the "ask yer neighbor if he minds" school of thought. That's a whole 'nother topic and a pretty steep slippery slope, if you ask me.

The point is, if in-ground pools are ALREADY allowed, you would be overreaching to say that they can be DISALLOWED on a case-by-case, on the WHIM or PRESUMPTION of a neighbor who just simply does not like whatever it is that is being requested and claim "use and enjoyment" issues.

Seriously, in my opinion, that gives way more individual power over an over-arching governing document than should be allowed.

When I moved in here, I saw that in-ground pools were allowed. If I don't like them, I should not have moved here. My neighbor read that same CC&R and loves in-ground pools, so he moved here with the clear understanding that he could have one. He shouldn't then be penalized because now he finds out that I don't like them and don't want to live next to one. Should homeowners also not only READ their CC&Rs before purchasing, but then go and canvas all their neighbors to see what things they WILL or WON'T additionally agree to?

That's playing pretty dirty pool, no pun intended!

Actually, yes, the "deck guy" did get a sign off from the "pool guy" to build his sunroom and deck. That requirement is included in our architectural review process. At the same time, I have come to realize, with input from this forum, closer reading of the covenants, and more time to ponder, that "pool guy" gets his pool. Luckily, I was able to encourage "pool guy" (he's my next door neighbor too, only the pool doesn't impact us) to approach "deck guy" with a willingness to make this work for everybody -- with an offer to help with putting in some landscaping to provide privacy and reduce the view impact, and a promise to respond to requests for keeping noise down, especially when "deck guy's" wife is working the night shift and trying to sleep during the day. I've got my fingers crossed that we've managed to avoid some serious unpleasantness. thanks to all of you for your wise counsel!
Joan

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

Things just work so much better when neighbors talk to each other.

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