HOMEOWNER REFUSES TO ABIDE BY RULES.. WHAT NOW?

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Hi,
I just revewed my emails from our HOA after being on vacation and have found that one of our "violation" letters recipient had emailed the baord and actually stated she wasn't going to be coming to a violation hearing ect.

I know this is in our managment company's hands.. I have cut and pasted the email below for review. What can we do other than fine the $100 which is our next step? ALso the threat of not paying dues doesn't hurt anyone but the homeowner isn't that correct? The rule enforcement of this letter was sent out at a board majority vote of 4 out of 7 board members.... it's documented in our executive session from a few months ago... and yes, it's true that this lady may of had the inappropriate bamboo stuff up, but it was well known by the old board, the new board decided to enforce rules universally.. fyi this lady is an ex board member.

Dear Current Board...
I have received the board letters regarding my bamboo. I will not be
attending the "hearing" on whatever night was requested in the letter.
What the current board is doing is harassment and a personal vendetta
towards me. I have had the bamboo up for over two years and not a
word was said until specific board members were "elected".

I have the bamboo up for security and privacy for my condo and patio.
If the board, through it's own funds, is willing to replace the
bamboo with more "appropriate" security and privacy measures on my
patio then feel free to propose an alternative solution. Until such
time I will not remove my bamboo. In addition, if I continue to
receive harassment letters regarding the "rules", I will refuse to
pay my homeowners dues. If the board wishes to file "charges" in that
regard, feel free. I will move out of this ridiculous place before I
pay a single cent for this harassment!

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

and before anyone asks.. NO I do not have my own agenda.. I am very suprised at a this reponse as I have seen alot of people challenge the board or the HOA's rules but not like this. Our next step is to fine the homeowner... and then that doubles each month... ect.

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/07/2008 4:33 PM
and before anyone asks.. NO I do not have my own agenda.. I am very suprised at a this reponse as I have seen alot of people challenge the board or the HOA's rules but not like this. Our next step is to fine the homeowner... and then that doubles each month... ect.

Without knowing all the other steps that have been taken before this point, would it make any sense to (at least try to) have a telephone conversation with the resident before any further action is taken? I wonder if some sort of personal contact, either in person or by phone, could help the situation.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

I am thinking this is best be done by the PM...

GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/07/2008 4:48 PM
I am thinking this is best be done by the PM...

That is one of the big advantages of a property manager--neighbor to neighbor communications can get confrontational. A good decision.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

What does it mean that she has had this bamboo screen up for 2 years and no one cited her for a violation?

Just wondering . . . seems like a very long time before the board acted on this.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/07/2008 4:42 PM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/07/2008 4:33 PM
and before anyone asks.. NO I do not have my own agenda.. I am very suprised at a this reponse as I have seen alot of people challenge the board or the HOA's rules but not like this. Our next step is to fine the homeowner... and then that doubles each month... ect.

Without knowing all the other steps that have been taken before this point, would it make any sense to (at least try to) have a telephone conversation with the resident before any further action is taken? I wonder if some sort of personal contact, either in person or by phone, could help the situation.

Again, I'm not at all sure what you expect from us.

We don't have the documents regarding the violation compliance process for your HOA.

I would imagine that you have been on the board long enough to know that, regardless of the homeowner and what they "say," you process the violation the same for everyone.

If the next step is the PM, that's what it is.

I have seen much worse than that in response to violation notifications.

Do you expect us to agree that it's a lousy response?

Okay, it's a lousy response. Now let your system do it's job.

Just because someone sends a "communication" to you, doesn't mean you have to reply. Just print it out and put it in the file you have on her.

She has the notice of the violation hearing date. If she doesn't show up, it goes to the next step.

Surely this isn't the only person that has not shown up for their violation hearing?

====================================

If we're comparing scars, I just received an email today from a local police officer (our subdivision is in his patrol jurisdiction).

The woman who lives across the street from me has called him twice for a service call.

Both times she was complaining to him that I am a racist and am harassing her and her family over parking on the street.

Her son got a ticket yesterday for parking against the flow of traffic. She's convinced that I called the police to report it (I was in an all-day masters class yesterday and my husband was out of town at a football game). Apparently our police district has been increasing patrols in various areas lately. The officer said he wrote about 8 or 9 tickets in our subdivision yesterday.

Now, it's true that the board has sent her several notices over the past year for her extended parking on the street in violation of the CC&Rs. She did not comply until she got the letter from the attorney threatening the lawsuit. But she and her family will still park on the street from time to time, just not frequently enough to make it an issue. She's not heard from us for over 5 months.

The officer was not exactly sure what she expected him to do. He thinks she wanted him to arrest me for harassment and hate crime (by reporting her violations to the board simply because she is black.)

But he wanted to alert me . . . just. . . in . . . case . . .

Now that's a homeowner "response" I had never seen before!

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 09/07/2008 5:02 PM
What does it mean that she has had this bamboo screen up for 2 years and no one cited her for a violation?

Just wondering . . . seems like a very long time before the board acted on this.

yes, it's been a long time. The issue was that the other board did not do walk throughs, provide enforcement of rules. We have a new board as of May in place and the lady that sent the email was not re-elected nor was a few others. That is why she is making the comment that "the new elected". I don' think it's right that jus because someone has had a non approved item up for two years makes it right does it? There is a speciific alternative available to her and everyone else in her situation, but after serving on the board for a couple of years I had assumed she ready our rules.. alas just because someone has been over looked or not enforced for 2 years.. doesn't make it right nor does it earn the right to keep something that is not HOA approved inplace. Thats just the way it is with HOAs.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

Nichole,

Welcome to the Board!

Could be worse, in my case we have a guy who put a huge roof expansion on his house and expects that we will simply rubber stamp it if we "must" go through the hoops.

Just follow through the normal procedures. Don't sweat what she will or won't do or pay. The thing is that if she could afford to just give up her unit, she would already have sold it and moved to a nicer one. (I am not saying this to slam your place, but there is always a nicer place available. And certainly ones that have no need for bamboo put up for "security and privacy."

As a note, I don't see how a bamboo screen will increase security. It would allow for a place to duck for cover when trying to break in.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/07/2008 5:08 PM

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/07/2008 4:42 PM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/07/2008 4:33 PM
and before anyone asks.. NO I do not have my own agenda.. I am very suprised at a this reponse as I have seen alot of people challenge the board or the HOA's rules but not like this. Our next step is to fine the homeowner... and then that doubles each month... ect.

Without knowing all the other steps that have been taken before this point, would it make any sense to (at least try to) have a telephone conversation with the resident before any further action is taken? I wonder if some sort of personal contact, either in person or by phone, could help the situation.

Again, I'm not at all sure what you expect from us.

We don't have the documents regarding the violation compliance process for your HOA.

I would imagine that you have been on the board long enough to know that, regardless of the homeowner and what they "say," you process the violation the same for everyone.

If the next step is the PM, that's what it is.

I have seen much worse than that in response to violation notifications.

Do you expect us to agree that it's a lousy response?

Okay, it's a lousy response. Now let your system do it's job.

Just because someone sends a "communication" to you, doesn't mean you have to reply. Just print it out and put it in the file you have on her.

She has the notice of the violation hearing date. If she doesn't show up, it goes to the next step.

Surely this isn't the only person that has not shown up for their violation hearing?

====================================

Be careful with those who pull any kind of race card claims.. it's a shame that we too even in California a number of years ago had a board member physcially threatened due to multiple violatiions from a unit that was being "rented" by multiple family members. They claimed they were being singled out too.. because they were AA. Little did the claim not stick as our HOA president was also AA. Thank goodness for a diverse HOA Board eh?

If we're comparing scars, I just received an email today from a local police officer (our subdivision is in his patrol jurisdiction).

The woman who lives across the street from me has called him twice for a service call.

Both times she was complaining to him that I am a racist and am harassing her and her family over parking on the street.

Her son got a ticket yesterday for parking against the flow of traffic. She's convinced that I called the police to report it (I was in an all-day masters class yesterday and my husband was out of town at a football game). Apparently our police district has been increasing patrols in various areas lately. The officer said he wrote about 8 or 9 tickets in our subdivision yesterday.

Now, it's true that the board has sent her several notices over the past year for her extended parking on the street in violation of the CC&Rs. She did not comply until she got the letter from the attorney threatening the lawsuit. But she and her family will still park on the street from time to time, just not frequently enough to make it an issue. She's not heard from us for over 5 months.

The officer was not exactly sure what she expected him to do. He thinks she wanted him to arrest me for harassment and hate crime (by reporting her violations to the board simply because she is black.)

But he wanted to alert me . . . just. . . in . . . case . . .

Now that's a homeowner "response" I had never seen before!

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/07/2008 5:08 PM

Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/07/2008 4:42 PM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/07/2008 4:33 PM
and before anyone asks.. NO I do not have my own agenda.. I am very suprised at a this reponse as I have seen alot of people challenge the board or the HOA's rules but not like this. Our next step is to fine the homeowner... and then that doubles each month... ect.

Without knowing all the other steps that have been taken before this point, would it make any sense to (at least try to) have a telephone conversation with the resident before any further action is taken? I wonder if some sort of personal contact, either in person or by phone, could help the situation.

Again, I'm not at all sure what you expect from us.

We don't have the documents regarding the violation compliance process for your HOA.

I would imagine that you have been on the board long enough to know that, regardless of the homeowner and what they "say," you process the violation the same for everyone.

If the next step is the PM, that's what it is.

I have seen much worse than that in response to violation notifications.

Do you expect us to agree that it's a lousy response?

Okay, it's a lousy response. Now let your system do it's job.

Just because someone sends a "communication" to you, doesn't mean you have to reply. Just print it out and put it in the file you have on her.

She has the notice of the violation hearing date. If she doesn't show up, it goes to the next step.

Surely this isn't the only person that has not shown up for their violation hearing?

====================================

Be careful with those who pull any kind of race card claims.. it's a shame that we too even in California a number of years ago had a board member physcially threatened due to multiple violatiions from a unit that was being "rented" by multiple family members. They claimed they were being singled out too.. because they were AA. Little did the claim not stick as our HOA president was also AA. Thank goodness for a diverse HOA Board eh?

If we're comparing scars, I just received an email today from a local police officer (our subdivision is in his patrol jurisdiction).

The woman who lives across the street from me has called him twice for a service call.

Both times she was complaining to him that I am a racist and am harassing her and her family over parking on the street.

Her son got a ticket yesterday for parking against the flow of traffic. She's convinced that I called the police to report it (I was in an all-day masters class yesterday and my husband was out of town at a football game). Apparently our police district has been increasing patrols in various areas lately. The officer said he wrote about 8 or 9 tickets in our subdivision yesterday.

Now, it's true that the board has sent her several notices over the past year for her extended parking on the street in violation of the CC&Rs. She did not comply until she got the letter from the attorney threatening the lawsuit. But she and her family will still park on the street from time to time, just not frequently enough to make it an issue. She's not heard from us for over 5 months.

The officer was not exactly sure what she expected him to do. He thinks she wanted him to arrest me for harassment and hate crime (by reporting her violations to the board simply because she is black.)

But he wanted to alert me . . . just. . . in . . . case . . .

Now that's a homeowner "response" I had never seen before!

JeannieraeO (California)
Posts: 27

Posted:

Let your Property Manager handle this. It's what you pay him for. I would not try to get personal on this issue. She's obviously upset because she's not in charge any more.

As to SusanW1's comment: "What does it mean that she has had this bamboo screen up for 2 years and no one cited her for a violation?

Just wondering . . . seems like a very long time before the board acted on this."

I'm dealing with this right now in my HOA. The previous board has not been enforcing the CC&R's and now we're the bad guys for cleaning up the mess. Just because enforcement has been lax in the past, doesn't mean you shouldn't enforce the rules now. Just be sure that you follow the proceedure to the letter and don't give any appearance on any level that you are singling her out, and she will ultimately have to comply.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeannieraeO on 09/07/2008 9:19 PM
Let your Property Manager handle this. It's what you pay him for. I would not try to get personal on this issue. She's obviously upset because she's not in charge any more.

As to SusanW1's comment: "What does it mean that she has had this bamboo screen up for 2 years and no one cited her for a violation?

Just wondering . . . seems like a very long time before the board acted on this."

I'm dealing with this right now in my HOA. The previous board has not been enforcing the CC&R's and now we're the bad guys for cleaning up the mess. Just because enforcement has been lax in the past, doesn't mean you shouldn't enforce the rules now. Just be sure that you follow the proceedure to the letter and don't give any appearance on any level that you are singling her out, and she will ultimately have to comply.

You have given the best answer for sure. I't been tough enough goin through the clean up from the last boards lack of enforcement ect. Her being a prior board member she feels she is being singled out. Her letters she has received has cited the rule she has broken and where she could find the reference, but that hasn't seemed to work on this homeowner. Some people are just NOT meant to live in HOA which often have more rules than many apartment buildings and other rentals.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Nicole,

It's very true that some people are not suited for living in an HOA. SOme people just cannot abide by rules, especially rules governing the use of their own property.

I would just ignore her letter. Hold the hearing w/o her and make your decision; which, IMO, should be to send her one more letter. A demend letter from your attorney stating if she does not cure the violation w/i a certain period of time legal action shall be taken. That legal action would be to get a court injunction for removal of the bamboo screen. Being an ex-board member she should know the consequences of not paying her assessments, which leads me to believe it's just an idle threat! However, if she should stupidly follow through on that threat, the board can issue fine notices and whatever comes next if she doesn't pay the assessments. Facing foreclosure might make her see she isn't going to win!!!

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

Refresh my memory . . . this isn't the same incident where there is the woman in the corner unit that faces a motel and she was told it was OK to put up a bamboo screen, is it?

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanW1 on 09/08/2008 4:26 PM
Refresh my memory . . . this isn't the same incident where there is the woman in the corner unit that faces a motel and she was told it was OK to put up a bamboo screen, is it?

Sorry, she claims she was told it was ok, and that prior board members don't have anything in the minutes to support this.. . It' nowhere in our minutes.. and it has been researched over all the available mnutes. We have a simple rule book that clearly stated the only approved type of boundary material approved by the HOA to be a metal wire that is NOT anything like what is being seen. The baord majority as stated voted that she was definately in violatoin and that wether or not she was "told" anything it wasn't documented anywhere nor does the homeowner have a written approval from the HOA. It's a no good claim.

JaneK (California)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Somehow she got the impression that the bamboo is approved.
If someone on the board told me it was OK and no one said anything to the contrary for two years, I would say I was led to believe it was approved, even if there is nothing in writing.

From AdamsKessler:
"Deane Gardenhome v Denktas (1993). Associations may waive architectural restrictions if they lead an owner to believe that an approval has been granted and the owner acts in reliance on the approval." (www.Davis-Stirling.com > case law)

Jane

TonyM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

The letter sounds irrational, especially for a former board member. I'd be concerned what kind of damage this woman is capable of inflicting upon herself.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TonyM3 on 09/09/2008 12:20 AM
The letter sounds irrational, especially for a former board member. I'd be concerned what kind of damage this woman is capable of inflicting upon herself.

I don't think it sounds "irrational."

I think she's drawing a line in the sand, but, if she believes that her bamboo has been allowed, then it's not "irrational."

To me it reads as someone who is standing firm and not going to be "bullied." She's trying to appear a little intimidating, perhaps, but that's about it.

Now, whether she's really bullied or not is probably up for debate, and I don't think she is being bullied.

However, it's going to backfire on her.

TamaraW (Ohio)
Posts: 193

Posted:

These things can get ugly. Have the PM handle it by the book. Don't make contact with her as she already states she "feels" she is being harassed. Contacting her will only personalize the situation. She has been given an opportunity to meet with you and she does not want that. So please don't contact her, any contact should come from your PM.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TamaraW on 09/09/2008 7:18 AM
These things can get ugly. Have the PM handle it by the book. Don't make contact with her as she already states she "feels" she is being harassed. Contacting her will only personalize the situation. She has been given an opportunity to meet with you and she does not want that. So please don't contact her, any contact should come from your PM.

Yes, that is what the HOA plans on doing. It's is alot of scuttle over something so simple.

TamaraW (Ohio)
Posts: 193

Posted:

Good Luck!

JaneK (California)
Posts: 175

Posted:

Did anyone read the details of the case I mentioned above?
Unfortunately we live not by laws but by the precedents set by judges.
Jane

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

Jane,

Case law is not consistent on the issue. Some judges have ruled different board different level of enforcement - all is legal. And the fact that the person was formerly on the Board will not be in her favor. And in fact, it could well be that nobody on the Board had been willing to stand up to her while she was part.

If she were not a Board member than I might consider her case. But since she was a Board member and took advantage of her position I think they are doing the right thing.

As a last note: do not ever forget the ability of some folks to tell bold faced lies about being told what they wish they had been.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KirkW1 on 09/10/2008 5:58 AM
Jane,

Case law is not consistent on the issue. Some judges have ruled different board different level of enforcement - all is legal. And the fact that the person was formerly on the Board will not be in her favor. And in fact, it could well be that nobody on the Board had been willing to stand up to her while she was part.

If she were not a Board member than I might consider her case. But since she was a Board member and took advantage of her position I think they are doing the right thing.

As a last note: do not ever forget the ability of some folks to tell bold faced lies about being told what they wish they had been.

Kirk we all hope people are not like this, but said to say they do exist. Now because of the boards decision to go forward and send a letter to this woman she has now "let go" of her friends who are on the board.. it's like grade sshool which coincicdently is the work force for the ignorant homeowner.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/10/2008 6:41 AM

Kirk we all hope people are not like this, but said to say they do exist. Now because of the boards decision to go forward and send a letter to this woman she has now "let go" of her friends who are on the board.. it's like grade sshool which coincicdently is the work force for the ignorant homeowner.

So what?

Once again, I find your characterization of this resident offensive and not relevant.

Your personal bias IS showing.

It would be to your benefit to keep that in check as this violation moves forward.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/10/2008 9:14 AM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/10/2008 6:41 AM

Kirk we all hope people are not like this, but said to say they do exist. Now because of the boards decision to go forward and send a letter to this woman she has now "let go" of her friends who are on the board.. it's like grade sshool which coincicdently is the work force for the ignorant homeowner.

So what?

Once again, I find your characterization of this resident offensive and not relevant.

Your personal bias IS showing.

It would be to your benefit to keep that in check as this violation moves forward.

Thanks for your unsolicited opinion of my opinoin and ongoing questioning of my posts... why can't you just leave me alone Michele? There are other posters on here that have concerns and issues too.. why don't you question them.. please I have asked you before to leave me alone, pass up my posts...

TonyM3 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

That's a two way street...you can pass up hers too. It doesn't hurt to read all opinions even the ones you don't like. But if it bothers you that much just don't read 'em.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/11/2008 9:05 PM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/10/2008 9:14 AM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/10/2008 6:41 AM

Kirk we all hope people are not like this, but said to say they do exist. Now because of the boards decision to go forward and send a letter to this woman she has now "let go" of her friends who are on the board.. it's like grade sshool which coincicdently is the work force for the ignorant homeowner.

So what?

Once again, I find your characterization of this resident offensive and not relevant.

Your personal bias IS showing.

It would be to your benefit to keep that in check as this violation moves forward.

Thanks for your unsolicited opinion of my opinoin and ongoing questioning of my posts... why can't you just leave me alone Michele? There are other posters on here that have concerns and issues too.. why don't you question them.. please I have asked you before to leave me alone, pass up my posts...

But I AM giving you my measured, professional opinion regarding HOA leadership.

Instead of dismissing my suggestions and relegating them to "personal attacks," it might be in your best interest to understand what I am trying to say and WHY.

It is criticism, I realize that, but it is NOT personal criticism, it is constructive criticism.

The bigger problem (or issue) is that a resident is refusing to abide by the restrictions.

She has been noticed of violation and has chosen to reject that notice and put up a fight.

In characterizing her PERSONALLY, and calling her ignorant and alluding to other personal flaws or shortcomings, this does not help to advance gaining compliance, nor does it promote a healthy enforcement environment.

In fact, it can serve to continue an adversarial platform where the situation can devolve into power struggles, attempt to "save face," and worse.

And it can become costly.

I'm not saying to kow-tow to a reticent or obstructionist resident.

What I'm suggesting is much easier.

Treat her, even in your discussions of her, with the same respect and professional manner as you would expect her to treat or to discuss you. ESPECIALLY if she DOESN'T give that respect.

When the situation reaches the point where legal intervention may be necessary, your BOARD'S POSITION will be much stronger if there is no hint of retaliation, harassment, retribution, or disparity of treatment from any of the board members.

HOW YOU FRAME YOUR OPPONENT IS JUST AS CRITICAL A STRATEGIC MANEUVER AS HOW WELL YOU FOLLOW YOUR ENFORCEMENT OBLIGATIONS IS.

So, in short, you can ignore my sincere attempts to help or you can write me off as somehow "attacking" you or "picking" on you.

I would (and have if you have followed my posts on this board) offer the same analysis and insight to others who I felt were wandering into such a landmine.

Organizations, ultimately are comprised of PEOPLE. People bring all sorts of emotional and subjective baggage into an organization, as easily as they bring their functional skills and talents.

If we refer to our residents in such an offensive manner, even in our casual conversations about them, it can have a detrimental affect on our ability to treat them in an unbiased and fair manner.

Just sayin' . . .

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424

Posted:

Michelle - I know this is none of my business .. .. .. but be careful about throwing stones regarding posts that "categorize" other people, are "not relevant", or possibly "offensive" .. .. ..

Your latest response to Nicole is very measured and exceedingly logical, upstanding, and well constructed, but all of us can get emotional and usage verbage that can be perceived as less than professional.

For instance in a thread you and I both particpated in on 07/29/2008, when it became obvous that we disagreed about a point and it was at an impasse, you responded to me with,

"Oh that's probably the second most absurd thing I've heard in a long time. The first one was when my sister said "Batman: The Dark Knight" was boring."

In yet a different thread on 07/19/2008 you said,

"what a chickensh!t group of directors."

followed by,

"I think it's time to help these poor addled souls move along to something they can handle, like bridge or bingo. . ."

WilliamT1 (Maryland)
Posts: 12

Posted:

What do your documents say are the results of non-compliance?

My HOA can fine owners for certain things. My HOA can make corrections to "major maintenence violations" itself, and bill the owner for the costs. If the owner doe snot pay, we can put a lien on the house, and we can flrclose on a lien. We charge all court costs, lawyer fees, and 6% per annum interest to the owner. This all also applies to nonpayment of assessment fees.

I don't know what your HOA rules define to be your due process. You can't force someone to attend meetings. Last night we were expecting someone who is a constant trash nuisance in our neighborhood to come have their say our meeting, but they did not show. We have over 50 complaints from neighbors about this induvidual over the past year, they cost us quite a bit in cleanup fees and dump runs, and do not care. We expect to see them in a courtroom in the near future. Your problem person may be risking similar sanctions, but you'll have to decypher your documents to know what exactly those are in your case.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

To correct you, I did not "characterize" Nicole as being either offensive or not relevant. I pointed out that her name-calling of the resident in question was offensive and irrelevant.

I was not "throwing stones" at her character.

Big distinction.

It wasn't a personal attack, like the name-calling she was doing is. It does show her bias, and it is something of which she needs to be aware that she may be doing.

And one reason that *I* am aware of how difficult that sort of behavior can be to self-monitor, IS because I know how easy it can be to resort to it.

Calling ME out when I do it is totally appropriate. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else who posts here.

When I cross the line, I would expect to be thunked, and I have often apologized for doing it, when it happens.

The example you try to frame me with is off-target, however.

To be specific: calling out something someone says as "absurd" is not even close to the same thing as calling THEM "ignorant."

I can say something you say is stupid, and not mean you are a STUPID PERSON. I am not labeling your character by dismissing as absurd comments you make.

In addition, it may not be fair for me to pass judgment on a group of people I don't know, based on the limited information I may be given in a one-sided description, I'll give you that. But that's still a long way from painting an individual in my own neighborhood with whom I and the other board members NEED to maintain a professional demeanor, as being of particularly derogatory character.

If those board members were in my own neighborhood, I would be guilty of the same thing. And it would be appropriate for someone to flag me on it.

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING.

But thank you for providing for Nicole the fact that I don't single her out!

That's one of the other points I was trying to make!

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424

Posted:

Michelle - your points are well taken. There is indeed a difference between characterizing someone's behavior versus characterizing the person themself.

It is a distinction that in the "heat of the foum posting moment" can become subtle at best - in fact subtle enough that it would be wise for all participants who choose to use a derogatory adjective would be best served by clearly defining the adjective as applying to "behavior" rather than "person".

TamaraW (Ohio)
Posts: 193

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 10:32 AM
To correct you, I did not "characterize" Nicole as being either offensive or not relevant. I pointed out that her name-calling of the resident in question was offensive and irrelevant.

SO how is all this psycho babble relevant to Nicole's question/situation. Nichole is doing a great job in volunteering for her community and seeking further help by joining this forum. She apparently is seeking to do the best and your responses have not been productive to her situation.

JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424

Posted:

Tamara -

Admittedly, the thread got a little sidetracked (and I admit my culpability to that end), BUT Nicole herself did contribute to the diverted track by becoming distressed by Michelle commentary.

Perhaps if it's too far off track, the most appropriate person to bring it back is the original poster?

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TamaraW on 09/12/2008 11:29 AM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 10:32 AM
To correct you, I did not "characterize" Nicole as being either offensive or not relevant. I pointed out that her name-calling of the resident in question was offensive and irrelevant.

SO how is all this psycho babble relevant to Nicole's question/situation. Nichole is doing a great job in volunteering for her community and seeking further help by joining this forum. She apparently is seeking to do the best and your responses have not been productive to her situation.

I have to respectfully disagree. In my opinion, the "psycho babble" is relevant to her ability to fairly and professionally lead through her volunteer efforts in her community.

While we can provide guidance on logistics, there are sometimes serious issues with perception, resident treatment, fairness, perceived fairness, etc etc, that can be addressed as well.

It's never been a question that Nicole's efforts to assist her community through volunteering time, energy and talent on her board is not admirable.

And in "seeking to do the best" the responses I provided are productive and relevant to her situation.

If she is denigrating and bashing the resident who is being difficult, it can dilute her efforts to remain unbiased. That can impact her ability to reach a fair compromise, should it get to a level where some form of compromise is needed.

Self-editing and avoiding offensive personal attacks on the resident can also help bolster her position that she IS just trying to be fair. She will stand a better chance of being supported by her words and her actions, IF the situation escalates.

It was a fair recommendation to her.

You may not agree that it is unwise to call your HOA residents derogatory names.

And you may not agree that it won't impact a situation.

And you may not agree that my contribution to use caution and refrain from showing bias, especially with a volatile resident isn't a productive suggestion for her situation.

That's fine. I think it is. You may not, and Nicole herself may not, but we'll just have to agree to disagree, then.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 9:08 AM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/11/2008 9:05 PM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/10/2008 9:14 AM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/10/2008 6:41 AM

Kirk we all hope people are not like this, but said to say they do exist. Now because of the boards decision to go forward and send a letter to this woman she has now "let go" of her friends who are on the board.. it's like grade sshool which coincicdently is the work force for the ignorant homeowner.

So what?

Once again, I find your characterization of this resident offensive and not relevant.

Your personal bias IS showing.

It would be to your benefit to keep that in check as this violation moves forward.

Thanks for your unsolicited opinion of my opinoin and ongoing questioning of my posts... why can't you just leave me alone Michele? There are other posters on here that have concerns and issues too.. why don't you question them.. please I have asked you before to leave me alone, pass up my posts...

But I AM giving you my measured, professional opinion regarding HOA leadership.

Instead of dismissing my suggestions and relegating them to "personal attacks," it might be in your best interest to understand what I am trying to say and WHY.

It is criticism, I realize that, but it is NOT personal criticism, it is constructive criticism.

The bigger problem (or issue) is that a resident is refusing to abide by the restrictions.

She has been noticed of violation and has chosen to reject that notice and put up a fight.

In characterizing her PERSONALLY, and calling her ignorant and alluding to other personal flaws or shortcomings, this does not help to advance gaining compliance, nor does it promote a healthy enforcement environment.

In fact, it can serve to continue an adversarial platform where the situation can devolve into power struggles, attempt to "save face," and worse.

And it can become costly.

I'm not saying to kow-tow to a reticent or obstructionist resident.

What I'm suggesting is much easier.

Treat her, even in your discussions of her, with the same respect and professional manner as you would expect her to treat or to discuss you. ESPECIALLY if she DOESN'T give that respect.

When the situation reaches the point where legal intervention may be necessary, your BOARD'S POSITION will be much stronger if there is no hint of retaliation, harassment, retribution, or disparity of treatment from any of the board members.

HOW YOU FRAME YOUR OPPONENT IS JUST AS CRITICAL A STRATEGIC MANEUVER AS HOW WELL YOU FOLLOW YOUR ENFORCEMENT OBLIGATIONS IS.

So, in short, you can ignore my sincere attempts to help or you can write me off as somehow "attacking" you or "picking" on you.

I would (and have if you have followed my posts on this board) offer the same analysis and insight to others who I felt were wandering into such a landmine.

Organizations, ultimately are comprised of PEOPLE. People bring all sorts of emotional and subjective baggage into an organization, as easily as they bring their functional skills and talents.

If we refer to our residents in such an offensive manner, even in our casual conversations about them, it can have a detrimental affect on our ability to treat them in an unbiased and fair manner.

Just sayin' . . .

I feel that when I post.. asking for you NOT to respond. I am asking for anyone's input BUT yours. I have had enough of your asking me what my agenda is, why I say this or that. You post on this thing enough.. find someone else to insult. I don't like you, your response and I don't owe you an answer for asking or responding anything. EVERYTIME I post anything.. you are SO there. I must be n your favorites list. You are not on mine. I AM ASKING YOU TO JUST LEAVE YOUR QUESTIONING OF ME, MY ETHICS, MY COMMENTS ALONE YOU NEED TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE to stalk on this site.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TamaraW on 09/12/2008 11:29 AM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 10:32 AM
To correct you, I did not "characterize" Nicole as being either offensive or not relevant. I pointed out that her name-calling of the resident in question was offensive and irrelevant.

SO how is all this psycho babble relevant to Nicole's question/situation. Nichole is doing a great job in volunteering for her community and seeking further help by joining this forum. She apparently is seeking to do the best and your responses have not been productive to her situation.

TAMARA.. THANK YOU. I have been here for only a few months and this one.. is a real nuisance to me. It's almost like a stalker. She often is there askng my agenda, or about my ethics.. focusing on me as a person rather than my concerns. She is the first to insult, critisize ect. I know I can't do more than ask her t leave me alone, but if I posted a post statng.. the sky is green.. she would be there to ask me what my agenda is, or how it's releavent to this site. literally almost every post I have SHE IS THERE with psycho babble. I think she is some sort of stalker that is MY only explanation as to why she must post on every single topic I put up. and it's usually the same.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TamaraW on 09/12/2008 11:29 AM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 10:32 AM
To correct you, I did not "characterize" Nicole as being either offensive or not relevant. I pointed out that her name-calling of the resident in question was offensive and irrelevant.

SO how is all this psycho babble relevant to Nicole's question/situation. Nichole is doing a great job in volunteering for her community and seeking further help by joining this forum. She apparently is seeking to do the best and your responses have not been productive to her situation.

TAMARA.. THANK YOU. I have been here for only a few months and this one.. is a real nuisance to me. It's almost like a stalker. She often is there askng my agenda, or about my ethics.. focusing on me as a person rather than my concerns. She is the first to insult, critisize ect. I know I can't do more than ask her t leave me alone, but if I posted a post statng.. the sky is green.. she would be there to ask me what my agenda is, or how it's releavent to this site. literally almost every post I have SHE IS THERE with psycho babble. I think she is some sort of stalker that is MY only explanation as to why she must post on every single topic I put up. and it's usually the same.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnO6 on 09/12/2008 12:06 PM
Tamara -

Admittedly, the thread got a little sidetracked (and I admit my culpability to that end), BUT Nicole herself did contribute to the diverted track by becoming distressed by Michelle commentary.

Perhaps if it's too far off track, the most appropriate person to bring it back is the original poster?

Yes, back to the subject.. ( please do not ask my agnenda, ethics. Michele at least from my end I would appreciate if you could resisit the temptation and LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE )

I have seen that this homewner who was cited originally back in July has not take down her fence, has be cited with a fine and now is resistant to any meeting. It's the next step which according to our docs and atty advisement is legal action. I hope it works out. Our next meeting is this week.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/12/2008 9:51 PM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/12/2008 9:08 AM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/11/2008 9:05 PM

Posted By MicheleD on 09/10/2008 9:14 AM

Posted By NicoleO4 on 09/10/2008 6:41 AM

Kirk we all hope people are not like this, but said to say they do exist. Now because of the boards decision to go forward and send a letter to this woman she has now "let go" of her friends who are on the board.. it's like grade sshool which coincicdently is the work force for the ignorant homeowner.

So what?

Once again, I find your characterization of this resident offensive and not relevant.

Your personal bias IS showing.

It would be to your benefit to keep that in check as this violation moves forward.

Thanks for your unsolicited opinion of my opinoin and ongoing questioning of my posts... why can't you just leave me alone Michele? There are other posters on here that have concerns and issues too.. why don't you question them.. please I have asked you before to leave me alone, pass up my posts...

But I AM giving you my measured, professional opinion regarding HOA leadership.

Instead of dismissing my suggestions and relegating them to "personal attacks," it might be in your best interest to understand what I am trying to say and WHY.

It is criticism, I realize that, but it is NOT personal criticism, it is constructive criticism.

The bigger problem (or issue) is that a resident is refusing to abide by the restrictions.

She has been noticed of violation and has chosen to reject that notice and put up a fight.

In characterizing her PERSONALLY, and calling her ignorant and alluding to other personal flaws or shortcomings, this does not help to advance gaining compliance, nor does it promote a healthy enforcement environment.

In fact, it can serve to continue an adversarial platform where the situation can devolve into power struggles, attempt to "save face," and worse.

And it can become costly.

I'm not saying to kow-tow to a reticent or obstructionist resident.

What I'm suggesting is much easier.

Treat her, even in your discussions of her, with the same respect and professional manner as you would expect her to treat or to discuss you. ESPECIALLY if she DOESN'T give that respect.

When the situation reaches the point where legal intervention may be necessary, your BOARD'S POSITION will be much stronger if there is no hint of retaliation, harassment, retribution, or disparity of treatment from any of the board members.

HOW YOU FRAME YOUR OPPONENT IS JUST AS CRITICAL A STRATEGIC MANEUVER AS HOW WELL YOU FOLLOW YOUR ENFORCEMENT OBLIGATIONS IS.

So, in short, you can ignore my sincere attempts to help or you can write me off as somehow "attacking" you or "picking" on you.

I would (and have if you have followed my posts on this board) offer the same analysis and insight to others who I felt were wandering into such a landmine.

Organizations, ultimately are comprised of PEOPLE. People bring all sorts of emotional and subjective baggage into an organization, as easily as they bring their functional skills and talents.

If we refer to our residents in such an offensive manner, even in our casual conversations about them, it can have a detrimental affect on our ability to treat them in an unbiased and fair manner.

Just sayin' . . .

I feel that when I post.. asking for you NOT to respond. I am asking for anyone's input BUT yours. I have had enough of your asking me what my agenda is, why I say this or that. You post on this thing enough.. find someone else to insult. I don't like you, your response and I don't owe you an answer for asking or responding anything. EVERYTIME I post anything.. you are SO there. I must be n your favorites list. You are not on mine. I AM ASKING YOU TO JUST LEAVE YOUR QUESTIONING OF ME, MY ETHICS, MY COMMENTS ALONE YOU NEED TO FIND SOMEONE ELSE to stalk on this site.

No. I am not stalking and I take offense of that accusation. Why do you feel necessary to personally attack me, just because you don't like or agree with my perspective? By ignoring what I say simply because you take it personally, you may be overlooking some much needed advice.

You may not like my perspective, but this is an open site and even if YOU don't see value in the perfectly fair and reasonable input I give regarding your issues, someone with a similar problem may find value in them.

For the record, I am not the only poster who has probed you regarding an agenda with this particular resident. Nor are YOU the only poster who has been cautioned about an "agenda," by many posters in many different scenarios.

We can only take you at your word that there is not one.

But all HOA board members, me, you, Susan, Donna, Robert, we all have to take care that we try to keep our personal biases out of our board actions.

Believe me, it's very hard. I know this from experience. It's very easy to take it personally when a resident is behaving in a difficult and confrontational manner. Few of us are immune to the very human reaction to feel that way. And it's very easy to slip into the trap of holding a grudge.

But the reason we have to be careful is because it can color our dealings with them. When that happens it CAN contaminate our decisions and erode our position if things end up in court. We must always strive to be as fair and IMPERSONAL as possible. This is a key leadership principle and not unique to you or me or anyone else.

So, I'm sorry if what I say appears harsh to you. You are certainly free to dismiss it and ignore any of the comments. I'm not being "personal," and if someone shows me where I have done that, I will most humbly apologize. I am not addressing YOUR character, as you are me, but only certain actions or behaviors that it might be in your best interest to examine.

It's not a character assassination, as you are attempting on me above, it is legitimate leadership advice that ANYONE can benefit from.

I'm not calling YOU names (stalker?!), but I still contend that, if your posts and issues have areas where I think I can contribute constructive commentary and/or advice, I will provide it.

Again, other readers may have a similar situation and feel the commentary applicable. Others may not.

If you persist in calling me "stalker" and making baiting comments in other posts designed to attempt to intimidate me from posting, I will lodge a formal complaint to request a review of possible violation of the terms of service of use of this board.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665

Posted:

I think the two of you should either go into your corners, or start a new thread and call it a cage match.

Honestly, from where I sit both of you need to back off each other. You clearly have a personality conflict. Neither of you seem to have an outlook of the other that would match the majority of the posters here.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KirkW1 on 09/13/2008 7:41 AM
I think the two of you should either go into your corners, or start a new thread and call it a cage match.

Honestly, from where I sit both of you need to back off each other. You clearly have a personality conflict. Neither of you seem to have an outlook of the other that would match the majority of the posters here.

Kirk that is a fine idea, however.. I am still standing by that I everytime I post I get to be asked questions by this same poster about personal agenda instead of focusing on the question asking input./ I honestly don't need that kind of advice.. and I have pulled up my history.. Literally 90+% this person is there wrting books long responses about being biased, ethics ect. I wished she would just move on..I personally have asked her to leave me alone, by the internet standards... it's stalking.

NicoleO4 (California)
Posts: 160

Posted:

I am done here.. Time to move to another site... good bye

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WilliamT1 on 09/12/2008 10:31 AM
What do your documents say are the results of non-compliance?

My HOA can fine owners for certain things. My HOA can make corrections to "major maintenence violations" itself, and bill the owner for the costs. If the owner doe snot pay, we can put a lien on the house, and we can flrclose on a lien. We charge all court costs, lawyer fees, and 6% per annum interest to the owner. This all also applies to nonpayment of assessment fees.

I don't know what your HOA rules define to be your due process. You can't force someone to attend meetings. Last night we were expecting someone who is a constant trash nuisance in our neighborhood to come have their say our meeting, but they did not show. We have over 50 complaints from neighbors about this induvidual over the past year, they cost us quite a bit in cleanup fees and dump runs, and do not care. We expect to see them in a courtroom in the near future. Your problem person may be risking similar sanctions, but you'll have to decypher your documents to know what exactly those are in your case.

I have read this very long and sometimes off track thread and think that you amongst a few others have given the best advice. I also agree to read your docs, follow them to the T. I also feel that in all honesty that it's a board members responibility to not only follow rules, but to also follow them to be an example... this is a great example of a board member who may have used her title to continue to do something against rules.. knowingly is bad but he fact she may of been ignorant enough to think that it didn't apply to her is worse.

I do not view the word ignorant as a characterization it is a fact as a rule is in place, board member has had infraction for more than 2 years.. ignorant per the online dictionary would describe this behavior as lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified ......

I am new the this site and have read many great threads.. this one seems to have asked a question that got off track, and turned into a personal accuation of this or that. It's apprarant that someone's opinion is not wanted, but it's still being forced upon the poster. I hope this is not the norm. Its a recipe for disaster.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrancescaM on 09/13/2008 9:30 AM

I am new the this site and have read many great threads.. this one seems to have asked a question that got off track, and turned into a personal accuation of this or that. It's apprarant that someone's opinion is not wanted, but it's still being forced upon the poster. I hope this is not the norm. Its a recipe for disaster.

No it's not, but discussions can get heated at times when people express their views with passion.

I would always hope, though, that we remember not to devolve into name calling or intimidation tactics.

That's never happened on the board, that I'm aware.

There are many many many posters, each bringing a different perspective and lens through which he or she may operate.

All are welcome.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 09/13/2008 9:36 AM

Posted By FrancescaM on 09/13/2008 9:30 AM

I am new the this site and have read many great threads.. this one seems to have asked a question that got off track, and turned into a personal accuation of this or that. It's apprarant that someone's opinion is not wanted, but it's still being forced upon the poster. I hope this is not the norm. Its a recipe for disaster.

No it's not, but discussions can get heated at times when people express their views with passion.

I would always hope, though, that we remember not to devolve into name calling or intimidation tactics.

That's never happened on the board, that I'm aware.

There are many many many posters, each bringing a different perspective and lens through which he or she may operate.

All are welcome.

I thank you, but reading this it appears as though you were asked to not share your opinon, yet it was forced upon the poster. I can't help but focus on this as this is the only thread like this that I have seen. I know if someone asked me to leave them alone or not to share thier opinon with me, out of respect I would. I wouldn't agree that this is stalking,but it appears that there is a claim of resquested peace "to be left alone" and it wasn't respected or awknowleged. It is just an observation, but giving advice when it's clearly asked not to be giveni is in turn a recipe for conflict, by anyone. It looks like this poster left over it.

JC3
Posts: 290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By n/a on 09/07/2008 6:12 PM

Posted By SusanW1 on 09/07/2008 5:02 PM
What does it mean that she has had this bamboo screen up for 2 years and no one cited her for a violation? Just wondering . . . seems like a very long time before the board acted on this.

yes, it's been a long time. We have a new board as of May in place and the lady that sent the email was not re-elected nor was a few others. Thats just the way it is with HOAs.

though it does look like this poster left over it, I wanted to say this:
It appears that since "the lady that sent the email was not re-elected " was on the board previously and the bamboo was not questioned, there was some selective NON-ENFORCEMENT going on. And she wants that non-enforcement continued. Can't blame her...you all permitted it then, there's no reason to not now. But then you really should change the rules so that others can enjoy the same benefit.

FrancescaM (Washington)
Posts: 264

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JC3 on 09/13/2008 6:28 PM

Posted By n/a on 09/07/2008 6:12 PM

Posted By SusanW1 on 09/07/2008 5:02 PM
What does it mean that she has had this bamboo screen up for 2 years and no one cited her for a violation? Just wondering . . . seems like a very long time before the board acted on this.

yes, it's been a long time. We have a new board as of May in place and the lady that sent the email was not re-elected nor was a few others. Thats just the way it is with HOAs.

though it does look like this poster left over it, I wanted to say this:
It appears that since "the lady that sent the email was not re-elected " was on the board previously and the bamboo was not questioned, there was some selective NON-ENFORCEMENT going on. And she wants that non-enforcement continued. Can't blame her...you all permitted it then, there's no reason to not now. But then you really should change the rules so that others can enjoy the same benefit.

Sometimes it's not just that easy. Reading this it appears as though there are other options presented. The fact someone doesn't wish to honor them is NOT the reason to change rules to accomodate a past board member who is now knowingly breaking one of their basci rules. IT's a pity we can't find out what will
happen here.

JC3
Posts: 290

Posted:

FrancescaM said: " The fact someone doesn't wish to honor them is NOT the reason to change rules to accomodate a past board member who is now knowingly breaking one of their basci rules."

That board member was breaking the rules while she was on the board, and nobody did anything about it. She, while a BM, violated the rule. therefore, there was selective non-enforcement. So yes, if the rules were not enforced for her during her board time, they should not have been enforced against anyone violating the same or similar rule. If she's grandfathered, change the rule so everybody can enjoy the same benefit the board member has, former or not.