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NancyM2 (California)
Posts: 249
Posted:
We are 97% funded in our replacement reserve fund with 10K taken out of the budget each month adding to that reserve fund. We have a reserve study done every year.

However we are negative each month on the operating fund. Upside down by several thousand dollars. I think the figure was 119K by the year end FY2009 in figureing the new budget. Therefore we are advised by our Mgmt Co to increase our dues for FY2009 by 18%.

Is it possible to allocate some of that 10K into the operating fund each month without causing a problem.

we are a single family home community with no amenities other than greenbelt.

NancyM2
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Are you mandated by the bylaws to deposit 10K every month into Reserves or is this the budgeted.

Your budget seems to be unbelievably distorted. WHY are you SO upside down?
NancyM2 (California)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Susan (you are up early it's 5:30 in Calif)

The reserve study recommended the 10K to be budgeted ~ Not the bylaws

IMHO Overspending and keeping an Ombudsmn and attorney on the payroll, as well as a Mgmt Co for about double the cost of what they should be. The board refuses to cut these items.

I am a "X" board member, that happens to be on the budget committee.
NancyM2
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
8:48 AM in Michigan!!

Well, what would you do if your household finances were in such a state?

CUT expenses!!!

Call an emergency Budget Committee meeting and look at all your finances.

Sounds like the tag is wagging the dog, here.
NancyM2 (California)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Thats what our treasurer has done ~~ Call a budget committee meeting. However he is the board member (with a vote)and he refuses to cut the attorney. He feels to change the Mgmt Co would be too disruptive. Also feels the other board members won't want to cut the Ombudsman. The Mgmt Co feels we need a Ombudsman, as he is taking some of their workload with owner disputes. However we seem to have more "hearings" for the BOD to handle since we have had an Ombudsman.

This hand to mouth way of handleing finances is what my grandchildren do. I have lived long enough to not do that anymore.
NancyM2
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Nancy,

It's great to fund the reserves by the amount recommended in the reserve study; but ONLY if your financial condition allows it! Apparently your doesn't. I say amend this year's budget to reduce your reserve fund contribution. Next year may warrant an assessment increase in order to meet the suggested amount for the reserve account as specified in the reserve study. Although, it is very important to make regular contributions to the reserve fund; if doing so creates a shortfall in operating funds then it is definitely not an appropriate financial transaction.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
If an association's financial condition is not adequate to fund both reserves and operating than reducing the contribution of either is a stop-gap measure, not advisable, and exposes the association to a lack of fiduciary duty. Instead, all unnecessary expenses must be reduced, and if that is not adequate than a maintenance fee increase to offset the difference is necessary, and perhaps mandatory. In other words, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is not the way to go.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/29/2008 6:42 AM
If an association's financial condition is not adequate to fund both reserves and operating than reducing the contribution of either is a stop-gap measure, not advisable, and exposes the association to a lack of fiduciary duty. Instead, all unnecessary expenses must be reduced, and if that is not adequate than a maintenance fee increase to offset the difference is necessary, and perhaps mandatory. In other words, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul is not the way to go.

Gerald,

I agree with what you say, however, not all assn's are able to increase their fees mid-year. That's why I suggested amending the budget to decrease the reserve fund contribution this year. Next year when the budget is being worked on a determination will be made whether or not a fee incr is warranted. Just because the reserve study calls for a certain amount to be contributed each month doesn't mean it's feasible -- even with a fee increase!
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MaryA1 - What prevents an association from increasing fees at any point during a year?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/29/2008 7:34 AM
MaryA1 - What prevents an association from increasing fees at any point during a year?

Their documents! The CCRs of my former assn stated the board could levy an "annual" assessment -- period. My current CCRs state the board has the authority to increase the annual assessment if the funds budgeted become inadequate. IMO, if the CCRs do not give the board the authority to increase the annual assessment w/i that assessment period, then they cannot do it. That's why it's called an "annual" assessment.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MaryA1 - As quoted, your ccr's permit an annual assessment but don't specifically prohibit a mid-term increase, do they? Waiting until budget time to correct a deficit is not wise, nor good business judgment. Don't you think?
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Nancy - what do your homwowners say about this idea that their assessments MAY get increased because of Board spending? For what you have described, I'd be livid!!
NancyM2 (California)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Susan ~ Our owners don't know yet The board tresurer is taking about raising the dues for FY2009 just a little bit, just to squeeze by and then increasing it again in FY2010. They don't want to take the heat right now. I told him I think that's dishonest, as most people want to know what the bottom line is especally people on fixed incomes.

NancyM2
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/29/2008 8:17 AM
MaryA1 - As quoted, your ccr's permit an annual assessment but don't specifically prohibit a mid-term increase, do they? Waiting until budget time to correct a deficit is not wise, nor good business judgment. Don't you think?

Gerald,

My CCRs DO permit the board to increase the assessment during the year if need be. If the assn has this authority, I agree, it's wise to do it when the shortfall is noticed. However, as I said, not all assn's have this authority. That is why I suggested amending the budget to lower the amount being placed into the reserve account, thus freeing up extra funds to be used for operating expenses. Then, when preparing the budget for the next year, the board can make the determination as to whether or not assessment need to be increased so the reserve funding can be increased or whether the reserve fund can stand to have a lower amount set aside each month. Just because the reserve study states a certain amount doesn't mean that amount is feasible.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
If you have some savings, then it is not always the best policy to raise dues mid stream in the budget year. Sometimes it is best to allow the year to run its course. Of course this assumes you can afford to do so.

Quite honestly, I don't see why the association has someone for hearing owner disputes. From what I have read I get the impression you are resolving disputes between two owners. (I think I read where you mentioned trees growing into the view of another owner.) I don't see that as a good function of the HOA. Let the owners pay for their own dispute resolution and stay out of it. That is what small claims court is for.

If you are going to keep the Ombudsman on staff, then you should start charging a fee to bring the case before the Ombudsman. Simply take the cost per year and divide by the average cases seen in the last couple years. (Or if the number keeps growing simply choose last year's figures.) From what you have said that should free up nearly $100k. For that matter, ask how many hours were actually used by the attorney.

I would take all of this to the membership if the BOD doesn't seem to get it. Point out that this is going to cost every member. Most HOAs don't have a staff attorney. They call their attorney when needed.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 08/29/2008 1:50 PM
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/29/2008 8:17 AM
MaryA1 - As quoted, your ccr's permit an annual assessment but don't specifically prohibit a mid-term increase, do they? Waiting until budget time to correct a deficit is not wise, nor good business judgment. Don't you think?


Gerald,

My CCRs DO permit the board to increase the assessment during the year if need be. If the assn has this authority, I agree, it's wise to do it when the shortfall is noticed. However, as I said, not all assn's have this authority. That is why I suggested amending the budget to lower the amount being placed into the reserve account, thus freeing up extra funds to be used for operating expenses. Then, when preparing the budget for the next year, the board can make the determination as to whether or not assessment need to be increased so the reserve funding can be increased or whether the reserve fund can stand to have a lower amount set aside each month. Just because the reserve study states a certain amount doesn't mean that amount is feasible.

MaryA1 - I do understand what you are saying BUT if an association BOD is going to borrow from Peter to pay Paul (reduce transfer to reserves temporarily to free money for use elsewhere) it is CRITICAL that the amount to budget for reserves in the next budget year INCLUDES the amount that was not collected during the time of the reduced reserve transfer.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Gerald,

You may feel it's critical to do this, however, it may not be feasible. The Board can only raise the assessments so much. In AZ there is a limit of 20% over the last years assessment, otherwise a vote of the members is required. If the board is unable to cut expenses and raise the assessments to make up the difference then it is not feasible. It may take several years to get to the point where there is enough $$ to fund the reserves for the amount recommended in the reserve study.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MaryA1 - A reserve fund is not a negotiating matter. It's very simple math and necessary to do in order to replace the elements when the time comes. An association has a duty to fund the reserves adequate enough so the money is there when needed. Seems to me that in AZ it's better to just call for an assessment rather than not fund the proper amount to reserves, not be able to fund what was not funded in the time period nothing was transferred, and then be hampered in raising maintenance to cover the necessary expenses. Ridiculous conundrum.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Gerald,

There is more then one theory in reserve funding. And while I prefer the idea that each line item is 100% funded at 100% all the time, it is not always realistic.

And while dues may need to be increased, this should be done as smoothly as possible. The hard truth is that what is best for the neighborhood is not always a cut and dried easy recipe. They may need to look to cut some expenses (and services). And they may defer some items. And it could even be a legitimate option to decide that when the service life of an amenity is up the amenity will go away reducing the amount of reserves needed.

But the residents do need to be updated on the situation at hand.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Kirk,

How should we look at individual line items in a reserve fund? Should we look at each item as a "mini-reserve" that cannot be touched except for the particular project? Or should we look at the reserve fund in sum, such that an unexpected major expense, or an overage in one line item, does not require a special assessment, or increase in dues?

For instance, if a roof is conservatively estimated to have a 20 year life span, but looks like it will easily last 30 years, can some of the reserve funding set aside for roofing be allocated to, say, stream rip rap that was not included in the original reserve study?

Or, must a special assessment be made to handle the unanticipated repair/replacement expense?

Each approach is valid, depending on how one looks at the reserve funding strategy.

As you know that is a real issue. I am not sure what the best (not, "correct") answer is.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Good point, George - and that's why every 3 - 5 years, the Reserve Fund Plan needs to be updated.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/30/2008 4:16 PM
MaryA1 - A reserve fund is not a negotiating matter. It's very simple math and necessary to do in order to replace the elements when the time comes. An association has a duty to fund the reserves adequate enough so the money is there when needed. Seems to me that in AZ it's better to just call for an assessment rather than not fund the proper amount to reserves, not be able to fund what was not funded in the time period nothing was transferred, and then be hampered in raising maintenance to cover the necessary expenses. Ridiculous conundrum.

Gerald,

I agree, it IS critical to fund the reserves. But, if the money isn't there, what is a board to do? THis board chose to fund the reserves and didn't have enough $$$ left over to cover the operating expenses. Do you find this wise financial planning? Not every assn can just raise the dues during the year. But, even if they could, they may not be able to raise them high enough to cover the shortfall. That's why I made the suggestions I did -- which I won't outline again. My suggestions have nothing to do with what is law in AZ. In fact, AZ has no laws regarding funding reserves. My suggestions have only to do with common sense. Reserve studies are great but the fundng recommendations may not be feasible for the assn to undertake. If that's the case the board has some tough decisions to make. Bottom line: What is more important -- fund the reserves as recommended in the reserve study or pay the bills? BTW, a special assessment only corrects the problem for one year, so IMO that is not a valid option.
GrahamO (Ontario)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Nancy—
I want to go back to your original question and make a point or two

POINT ONE.
The Operating Budget (i.e., the unit-owners’ fees coming in, and operating expenses going out) and the Reserve Fund dollars (i.e., unit-owners’ contributions coming in and reserves-related expenditures going out) should be thought of a two distinctly separate exercises.

The amounts required for the Operating Budget should be calculated for the coming fiscal year in such a way that bank balances throughout the coming year will be sufficient to pay the operating costs, with enough of a cushion built in, for the unexpected. (“The unexpected” is usually not much since you’re only looking at the next 12 months which are largely quite predictable).

The amounts required for the Reserve Fund should be calculated for the coming 30 years in such a way that reserve balances throughout the 30-year period will be adequate for the predicted expenditures, plus including a substantial cushion built in, for the unexpected. (“The unexpected” with reserves can be quite large as you’re predicting costs way into the future — not a precise piece of work at all).

POINT TWO
It you’re doing the above two things right, and keeping the tasks separate from each other, there should never be a time when you’re transferring money from one account to the other. If you do, it’s a clear indication that the planning for Operating Balances or the planning for Reserves is mot being done well.

EdieL (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
I can't understand a single family community with NO amenities
needing $10,000.00 a month reserve. What amenities are the reserve
budgeting for?
Edie
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Edie,

Very good question!

I live in a planned community of 1,700 single family homes. We have no amenities either. But, we do have extensive common area (greenbelts, parks, etc) and a number of lakes that are quite expensive to maintain. Our reserve funding is $4,000/month and we are fully funded. By no amenities I think what is meant is no clubhouse, swimming pool, tennis court, etc.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MaryA1 - If the money isn't there, the Board is obligated to raise fees such that the money will be there, plus as Graham so wisely pointed out, with cushion. His post is spot on by the way, none other than Graham to provide great insight into Reserves.
NancyM2 (California)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Edie

We have v ditches ((to drain water) several park areas with just grass. We have some steps made out of rail road ties. Some benches, a monument ~ walking trails ~ Thats all I can think of.

NancyM2
NancyM2 (California)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Edie ~ That's correct ~ NO clubhouses, gate, swimming pool, tennis court etc. Just small parks and a few benches, a walking trai mostly the "V" ditches to mantain, and a monument.

NancyM2
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
George,

In my opinion, if times are good the best option is to consider each line its own fund at least for contributions. I would never say this should be held to if something comes up sooner then expected though.

But when times are tough it is a valid option to switch to another method of looking at the funds. It is a valid option to consider it a single fund the needs to have enough money for the next project.

What I think about is that some neighborhoods already struggle with the effects of foreclosures. They have a high number of people who are barely hanging on to their mortgages. And if this describes your neighborhood now is the time to avoid raising dues if at all possible.

I would not presume to decide how another neighborhood funds their reserves. (Other then to say they do need to be looking at the future expenses now. Things may not get better for awhile.) I wish all associations were in a situation like ours. (We are funded at more then 1000%.) But that is simply not reality. Our developer set things up such that we had a budget surplus and dumped said surplus into the reserves for several years. Few others seem to do this.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/31/2008 3:29 PM
MaryA1 - If the money isn't there, the Board is obligated to raise fees such that the money will be there, plus as Graham so wisely pointed out, with cushion. His post is spot on by the way, none other than Graham to provide great insight into Reserves.

Gerald,

In the best of worlds, Graham's advice might be feasible. It's not always the "best of worlds", but my point seems to be lost on you. I'm not discounting what Graham has to say, but reserves is his business. He's not going to advise reducing the amount specified in the reserve study. Note he stated what should be done, he didn't offer any suggestions on how to correct the dilemna Nancy's HOA is in.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 08/31/2008 7:09 PM
George,

In my opinion, if times are good the best option is to consider each line its own fund at least for contributions. I would never say this should be held to if something comes up sooner then expected though.

But when times are tough it is a valid option to switch to another method of looking at the funds. It is a valid option to consider it a single fund the needs to have enough money for the next project.

What I think about is that some neighborhoods already struggle with the effects of foreclosures. They have a high number of people who are barely hanging on to their mortgages. And if this describes your neighborhood now is the time to avoid raising dues if at all possible.

I would not presume to decide how another neighborhood funds their reserves. (Other then to say they do need to be looking at the future expenses now. Things may not get better for awhile.) I wish all associations were in a situation like ours. (We are funded at more then 1000%.) But that is simply not reality. Our developer set things up such that we had a budget surplus and dumped said surplus into the reserves for several years. Few others seem to do this.
I tend to agree with you on all points.

Isn't a reserve fund at 1000% of the need excessive?

Our budget surplus also goes into to the reserve fund, rather than into an operating reserve. (The reserve is funded well over 100% based on the reserve study. Except for upcoming stream bank rip rap we have not had the need for any major repair/refurbishments.)

Yet, my sensibilities suggest that in rough economic times like these, we should be building operating reserves as a "rainy day" fund. If assessment payments fall short due to bankruptcies and foreclosures, we need to have some sort of operating fund that we can draw on to tide the association over. I would like to see our operating reserves at 6 months of expenditures, funded by budget surpluses.

I have made the argument, as yet unsuccessful, that the board can withdraw reserve funds that were placed there from budget surpluses, and use those withdrawals for operating expenses. They are, in effect, "funds functioning as reserves."

Our neighborhood has had its share of foreclosures and bankruptcies (but nothing as compared to adjoining neighborhoods. New purchasers received some incredibly great deals as a result.

Most of our foreclosures were in our "high rent district." People over bought and over extended themselves. Foreclosures on "the other side of the tracks" have been few and far between.

What we have seen, as a result, is the decline in market value of the "high rent district" homes, and the continued, albeit slow, appreciation on the "other side of the tracks."
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgerwilliamsW on 09/01/2008 7:33 AM

Isn't a reserve fund at 1000% of the need excessive?

Our budget surplus also goes into to the reserve fund, rather than into an operating reserve. (The reserve is funded well over 100% based on the reserve study. Except for upcoming stream bank rip rap we have not had the need for any major repair/refurbishments.)

I have made the argument, as yet unsuccessful, that the board can withdraw reserve funds that were placed there from budget surpluses, and use those withdrawals for operating expenses. They are, in effect, "funds functioning as reserves."


George, just curious but do your documents/state laws allow this? Most of the CC&R's I've seen mandate that any surplus of the yearly operating budget be returned to the H/O's as either a cash payout or reduced assessments. Ohio changed the law for condominiums specifically allowing this and further mandated that each COA must fund the reserves with a minimum of 10% of the operating budget or a majority of the H/O's must vote each year to allow for the possibility of special assessments. While documents may allow the use of reserve funds to cover a shortfall the money should be returned.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Good question. Statutory law is silent on the issue for homeowners associations. I have to check if the condo law is different.. And there is nothing in the declaration of covenants that specifies how to handle surpluses. So the board is at liberty to do what they want, and that has been to put the funds into the reserve fund.

The surplus is a result of a reduced need for snow removal in the past several winters. The problem is that there is no operating reserve to handle a super snowy winter. The strategy has been to budget for an above average winter, but not a super snowy winter.

By the way, Fannie Mae is now taking a very hard look at condo associations. Some tightened requirements include

  • The community association has an “adequate” budget.
  • The budget contains a line item allocating 10 percent of annual revenues for the association’s reserves
  • The association has available funds equaling the deductible under the association’s master insurance policy.
  • No more than 15 percent of the common area fees are delinquent by more than one month.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
George,

You said: "Good question. Statutory law is silent on the issue for homeowners associations. I have to check if the condo law is different.. And there is nothing in the declaration of covenants that specifies how to handle surpluses. So the board is at liberty to do what they want, and that has been to put the funds into the reserve fund."

Statutory law may be silent but the IRS is not! Section 528, which most HOAs fall under (those that file the 1120 or the 1120H), specifically states: "no part of the net earnings of such organization inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual", meaning the excess assessments cannot be paid back to the members. Putting the excess into the reserve fund would appear to be the best thing to do.

But there is a small minority of HOAs that are tax exempt under a 501(c) category. These HOAs must be very careful that the members vote each year to decide whether to return the excess to themselves or have it applied against the following year's assessments. No mention of applying it to the reserves. Ref Rev. Ruling 70-604.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
As for the question about 1000% funding being excessive, yes it is. We got there bacuse the developer set the dues to an arbitrary figure. They felt that if you could afford a house in the association's neighborhoods you could afford $200 a year. And all money above the actual expenses were put into the reserve fund early on. Then they had a reserve study done and changed to simply place the excess funds into "unrestricted investments."

Currently only 2/3 of our income is being spent. And yes, I know this needs to be fixed.

As for IRS rules, they only affect the tax consequence of your choices on spending money. They do not make you spend or not spend in a particular way.
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 09/01/2008 3:46 PM
Statutory law may be silent but the IRS is not! Section 528, which most HOAs fall under (those that file the 1120 or the 1120H), specifically states: "no part of the net earnings of such organization inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual", meaning the excess assessments cannot be paid back to the members. Putting the excess into the reserve fund would appear to be the best thing to do.

But there is a small minority of HOAs that are tax exempt under a 501(c) category. These HOAs must be very careful that the members vote each year to decide whether to return the excess to themselves or have it applied against the following year's assessments. No mention of applying it to the reserves. Ref Rev. Ruling 70-604.
Whoa! Wait a minute here! You have got to be kidding. That interpretation of Section 528 of the Internal Revenue Code is way off base. It makes no sense at all. In no way does it mean that excess assessments cannot be paid back to members. A return of money I paid into the association is simply that--a return of my money. It is not private inurement. By returning the money I paid into the association over and above what it needs, in no way benefits me.

It doesn't matter if the association is a 528 or a 501(c)(4) organization. The transaction is simply a refund of an excess amount paid. There is no inurement or private benefit whatsoever in the transaction.(If I overpay at the grocery store, there is no benefit to me when the cashier returns the excess amount to me.)

You did not quote fully from section 528. Here is the full text of the paragraph you quoted:
    "no part of the net earnings of such organization inures (other than by acquiring, constructing, or providing management, maintenance, and care of association property, and other than by a rebate of excess membership dues, fees, or assessments) to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual..."
Also, Revenue Ruling 70-604 has nothing to do with private inurement. It only impacts the tax treatment of returned assessments by the corporation, not by the individual member. Quoting from the IRS headnote for 70-604:
    "Excess assessments by a condominium management corporation, over and above the amounts used for the operation of condominium property, that are returned to the stockholder-owners or applied to the following year's assessments are not taxable income to the corporation."
Where does it discuss private inurement?

Further, Revenue Ruling 75-371 states:
    "Special assessments for the replacement of personal property, collected by a nonexempt condominium management corporation from its unit owner-stockholders and accumulated in a separate bank account, are contributions to capital."
Contributions to capital are not income.

Your understanding and interpretation of the nature of the transaction and of the tax code is way off target here.
GrahamO (Ontario)
Posts: 55
Posted:
As my earlier postings explain, I am hugely devoted to keeping Reserve Fund matters and Operating Budget matters entirely separate. That includes ... planning, funding, maintaining, spending, banking, and whatever else is necessary.

So, with that position in mind, may I suggest an extremely simple policy for surpluses that may arise in the Operations account. CARRY THEM OVER to the next period! Depending on how fat or thin you like to run your operating balances, you may then decide that monthly fees can be adjusted downwards as a result of the carry-over, or you nmay decide to run with fatter operating account balances for a while.

Simple, but totally workable.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Good idea in theory Graham, however as I stated above it may not be allowed by either the CC&R's or applicable law. Our original Declarations required that excess monies be returned to the H/O in proportion to the % of their ownership. In 2004 Ohio allowed BOD's to make this change to the CC&R's however neither the CC&R's nor the law allows the corporation to retain the excess monies in the operating fund.

5311.21 Common profits and expenses distributed.
Unless retained by the board of directors as reserves, the common profits of a condominium property shall be distributed among, and, except as provided in division (B) of section 5311.041 of the Revised Code, the common expenses shall be charged to the unit owners according to the undivided interests in the common elements appurtenant to their respective units.

Effective Date: 07-20-2004

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:

In any case, the OP's (original poster) Board should be required to give a complete financial report to the Members at a special meeting.

They should explain HOW they got into this mess and have the paperwork to prove it.

Raising assessments is the LAST thing that should be considered.

GrahamO (Ontario)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Glen -- I have never been one to particularly enjoy the machinations and complications of legal matters so I contribute this only "for what it's worth". (Not much, perhaps!). It's the question of "excess monies" in your paragraph, and "common profits" in the legal paragraph. Who's to say, at the end of the year when you find that your Operating Account balances look quite healthy, that they are indeed "excess monies" and not simply healthy balances that the Board feels insulates them nicely from Operating Expense fluctuations? Healthy (or even super-healthy) balances can be defended quite easily, and if the defense is logical then they become, in effect, a carry-over. A welcoem carry-over that just may have the effect of allowing the fees to be adjusted downwards for the upcoming period. N'est pas?
GeorgerwilliamsW (Indiana)
Posts: 975
Posted:
Mais oui. Graham, you previous posts have exhibited both astuteness and common sense. I agree with your thinking. Healthy, but not excessive, reserves are important for the well-being and efficient functioning of the association.

One of the judgments that the board makes is just how much cushion the association needs. A monthly cash flow analysis is a good tool to use.

I would think that a 6-month operating reserve would be sufficient, but some may opt for a 3-month reserve, while others may opt for a 12-month reserve. Some jurisdictions may have mandatory minimum/maximum limits on operating reserves set by statute or rule.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 09/01/2008 7:04 AM
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/31/2008 3:29 PM
MaryA1 - If the money isn't there, the Board is obligated to raise fees such that the money will be there, plus as Graham so wisely pointed out, with cushion. His post is spot on by the way, none other than Graham to provide great insight into Reserves.


Gerald,

In the best of worlds, Graham's advice might be feasible. It's not always the "best of worlds", but my point seems to be lost on you. I'm not discounting what Graham has to say, but reserves is his business. He's not going to advise reducing the amount specified in the reserve study. Note he stated what should be done, he didn't offer any suggestions on how to correct the dilemna Nancy's HOA is in.

MaryA1 - Your point is not lost on me, I just don't concur that stopping or reducing the amount to transfer to reserves is the way to go. Reserves are not just Graham's business, Reserves are everyone's business. Your statement that reserves is his business comes across as if he's prejudiced or influenced because of what he does for a living. Allocating funds to Reserves is not something to bargain or do only if circumstances are ideal.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 09/02/2008 8:08 AM
Posted By GeraldT4 on 08/31/2008 3:29 PM


MaryA1 - Your point is not lost on me, I just don't concur that stopping or reducing the amount to transfer to reserves is the way to go. Reserves are not just Graham's business, Reserves are everyone's business. Your statement that reserves is his business comes across as if he's prejudiced or influenced because of what he does for a living. Allocating funds to Reserves is not something to bargain or do only if circumstances are ideal.

Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 09/02/2008 8:08 AM

MaryA1 - Your point is not lost on me, I just don't concur that stopping or reducing the amount to transfer to reserves is the way to go. Reserves are not just Graham's business, Reserves are everyone's business. Your statement that reserves is his business comes across as if he's prejudiced or influenced because of what he does for a living. Allocating funds to Reserves is not something to bargain or do only if circumstances are ideal.

Gerald,

If my point was NOT lost on you then you would really understand what I've been trying to tell you. I never said reserves were NOT important. I also never said Graham was "prejudiced or influenced", just that, IMO, he's talking like a businessman who's in the business of "selling" resreve studies.

IMO, you can't seem to grasp the fact that not every assn can just fund the reserves as recommended in the reserve study. Have you read Nancy's response stating exactly what the reserves are for: "small parks, few benches, walking trail and a monument". For this, the reserve study recommends funding $10,000 PER MONTH!!! Knowing this, I'd not only stick with my initial suggestion to amend the budget but I'd also suggest getting a new reserve study from a different company.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MaryA1 - My comments to you originate from your post as follows: Gerald, You may feel it's critical to do this, however, it may not be feasible. The Board can only raise the assessments so much. In AZ there is a limit of 20% over the last years assessment, otherwise a vote of the members is required. If the board is unable to cut expenses and raise the assessments to make up the difference then it is not feasible. It may take several years to get to the point where there is enough $$ to fund the reserves for the amount recommended in the reserve study.". Yes, $10,000 transfer a month for such minimal elements is absurd and was never in dispute by me. I'm not sure what method you propose, or any association proposes, to fund the replacement of elements that they are required to budget for. Not doing so because they "can't" simply is not just not good enough. I'll end it there. : )
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Gerald,

If the money isn't there, it isn't there! Would you rather have a fully funded reserve fund and delinquent bills or be able to pay all the bills by decreasing the contribution to the reserve fund? The assn is not always able to raise the assessments to cover the shortfall for the reserve funding.

And, I'll end on that note! I think we've really beat this to death so we should just agree to disagree. :-)
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
While nobody likes to talk about it, there is something that can be done to help the reserve picture. You can kill off some of the items in the reserve study. For instance if you have 5 pools, the HOA could fill one with dirt. This will greatly improve the reserve outlook.

Before the flames come out, I do realize that the HOA can't do this willy nilly. But there have been organizations get rid of pools and other high cost items before and it does remain an option.

Mary is quite right in that sometimes there just isn't enough money to do all that you should due. This might be someone's fault. It might also be no fault of those dealing with the problem. Fortunately for me, I know what it is like to not know where the money that is needed will come from. Even better, I don't face that problem today.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Kirk,

Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, I believe we've all had that experience at some point in our lives. I, too, feel fortunate that I don't have those problems at my stage of life.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MaryA1 - You fail to recognize that you must attain both, reserves that will cover the replacements when necessary and the bills. When there is a deficit, an assessment may be necessary. But, if you are going to scheme creative financing you will always be obligated to pay the piper. And I will end it there because you my dear are wrong if you don't concur.

KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Quote:
... But, if you are going to scheme creative financing you will always be obligated to pay the piper. And I will end it there because you my dear are wrong if you don't concur.

I don't think anyone denies that creative financing will end up costing more. But the unfortunate reality is that sometimes people are stuck with a lack of reserve monies. And as they attempt to start building them, along comes problems that require creative ways to get out of them.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeraldT4 on 09/04/2008 5:41 PM
MaryA1 - You fail to recognize that you must attain both, reserves that will cover the replacements when necessary and the bills. When there is a deficit, an assessment may be necessary. But, if you are going to scheme creative financing you will always be obligated to pay the piper. And I will end it there because you my dear are wrong if you don't concur.


Gerald,

No, I am NOT wrong, my dear! I know what you are saying, but you don't seem to be grasping what I am saying. I think it's a case of "right Church, wrong pew"!

All I'm saying is this: This assn does not have enough $$$ to pay the bills; however they are contributing $10,000/mo to the reserve account. It's the middle of the year; what should they do? I suggested amending the budget to reduce the contribution to the reserve fund and use the additional money to pay the bills. When next year's budget is being prepared; if operating costs cannot be reduced then an increase in assessments should be considered so the reserve funding can be increased to the recommended amount with enough money left over to cover all the mo. expenses. However, if there are limitations on the amount that the assessment can be raised, they may not be able to contribute the recommended $10,000/mo. You cannot continue to "rob Peter to pay Paul"! What is more important; paying the bills or funding the reserves? This is not creative financing, it's common sense!

And to quote you: "I will end it there because you my dear are wrong if you don't concur." :-)

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