AlesiaS (California)
Posts: 6
Posts: 6
Posted:
Has anyone experienced an HOA homeowner putting a webcam in his window and presenting live feed of his neighbor's activities and children at play on his private website?
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webcam live feed of neighborhood without consent
Started by AlesiaS • 29 replies • 2475 views
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SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Absolutely! He is "publishing" activities of others without their permission. There is an invasion of privacy thing going on here - and because it involves children, he could be in real do-do.
Have your lawyer send him a letter or get a restraining order ASAP.
Can I ask WHY he is filming a certain household? Is it proof that this person is running a day care center?
Have your lawyer send him a letter or get a restraining order ASAP.
Can I ask WHY he is filming a certain household? Is it proof that this person is running a day care center?
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
You may want to clarify if he is doing this to ONE person as has been interpreted by Susan, or if he is doing it of say the street where his neighbour's and children are being filmed. May not be an invasion of privacy as one can't really expect 'privacy' on a public street.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Since when is it the HOA's job to police the activities of all the property owners in the commuity? If anyone thinks this guy is breaking the law, call the local P.D., plain and simple. The HOA shouldn't be involved in issues they have no jurisdiction over.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
In addition to Mary's great comment (+++++++), there are several unanswered questions:
If it is a private website, how exactly do you have access and know what he is doing? How did you get a password?
WHere is he filming? In many states, there is a difference between filming his own property, someone else's property, and public property. Who owns the streets in front of the houses, for example, in your HOA? What is he filming?
In California, it is illegal to SOUND RECORD any conversation that has a reasonable presumption of privacy unless both parties are aware of it. However, the courts have ruled that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public areas, like streets, outdoor cafes, etc.. However, that only applies to sound recording of conversations.
The law is very vague on video recordings without sound, and video recordings where conversations are not happening (or are not to be considered private). In general, the california courts are pretty liberal about videotaping intrusion (what many people would call peeping), tending to side with the "if you are doing something you don't want seen by the public, don't do it where it can be seen by the public".
In general, i would say there is little you can do about it, and Mary's advice is TOP NOTCH! why would the HOA even care?
If it is a private website, how exactly do you have access and know what he is doing? How did you get a password?
WHere is he filming? In many states, there is a difference between filming his own property, someone else's property, and public property. Who owns the streets in front of the houses, for example, in your HOA? What is he filming?
In California, it is illegal to SOUND RECORD any conversation that has a reasonable presumption of privacy unless both parties are aware of it. However, the courts have ruled that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in public areas, like streets, outdoor cafes, etc.. However, that only applies to sound recording of conversations.
The law is very vague on video recordings without sound, and video recordings where conversations are not happening (or are not to be considered private). In general, the california courts are pretty liberal about videotaping intrusion (what many people would call peeping), tending to side with the "if you are doing something you don't want seen by the public, don't do it where it can be seen by the public".
In general, i would say there is little you can do about it, and Mary's advice is TOP NOTCH! why would the HOA even care?
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanW1 on 06/06/2008 5:13 AM
Absolutely! He is "publishing" activities of others without their permission. There is an invasion of privacy thing going on here - and because it involves children, he could be in real do-do.
Have your lawyer send him a letter or get a restraining order ASAP.
Can I ask WHY he is filming a certain household? Is it proof that this person is running a day care center?
Absolutely! He is "publishing" activities of others without their permission. There is an invasion of privacy thing going on here - and because it involves children, he could be in real do-do.
Have your lawyer send him a letter or get a restraining order ASAP.
Can I ask WHY he is filming a certain household? Is it proof that this person is running a day care center?
I wouldn't be so quick to throw them in jail...a lot of unanswered questions. Probably the biggest question is where the filming is taking place? IF they are filming outside the home where anyone walking by can see then there is no invasion of privacy and I really see nothing wrong with it. I can't understand why anyone would do it or want to see it but I don't see anything wrong with it.
If he is filming inside their home then release the hounds and go get em.
StevenW3 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 64
Posts: 64
Posted:
Brad;
I video tape outside my home but the cameras mostly aimed at my property. Why? Because I've had a number of incidents of vandalism, trespass, and one incident that could be described as less than acceptable all of which were on my property proper. The local cops have used my video to go after the purps and have never questioned my use of video taping. I do NOT broadcast the feeds and only hand copies of the vids out to law enforcement for prosecution.
My software allows me to view the feeds via the web but I prefer to use the email option when the software detects any movement in on the property and I only use this option when I'm away for an extended timeframe (days to a week).
So this guy may have another reason for using cameras that an HOA may not be aware of. Anyway it would depend upon your state laws but as mentioned previously, if you are in a public place, there is usually no right to privacy. Every time you go into any store or even their parking lot you give up that right.
I agree it's NONE of the HOA's business and should be handled by local officials.
I video tape outside my home but the cameras mostly aimed at my property. Why? Because I've had a number of incidents of vandalism, trespass, and one incident that could be described as less than acceptable all of which were on my property proper. The local cops have used my video to go after the purps and have never questioned my use of video taping. I do NOT broadcast the feeds and only hand copies of the vids out to law enforcement for prosecution.
My software allows me to view the feeds via the web but I prefer to use the email option when the software detects any movement in on the property and I only use this option when I'm away for an extended timeframe (days to a week).
So this guy may have another reason for using cameras that an HOA may not be aware of. Anyway it would depend upon your state laws but as mentioned previously, if you are in a public place, there is usually no right to privacy. Every time you go into any store or even their parking lot you give up that right.
I agree it's NONE of the HOA's business and should be handled by local officials.
AlesiaS (California)
Posts: 6
Posts: 6
Posted:
Here is what I failed to mention....the guy WAS the volunteer webmaster for the HOA and put the live feed up on the HOA website..without permission...I think it presents tremendous liability to the membership. The neighbors on his street are about to riot. He is streaming children at play -- military personnel leaving there homes.....you can even watch children get off the school bus. Sure there is a lot of positive use for this technology... but this application of the technology ... I can't see any positive objective.
AlesiaS (California)
Posts: 6
Posts: 6
Posted:
Now that the webmaster lost access to the HOA domain, he moved the site to his private site, added password protection and continues to video the activities of his neighbors. Now that it is on a private site, I agree that there is probably nothing the HOA can do for the members on his street....my concern is he is just a hack that doesn't know what he is doing. I bet the site will not be secure and the neighbors privacy will be violated. I cannot begin to understand the state of mind of someone that would risk alienating ALL of his neighbors, safety of children and potentially our property values if this wackjob's activities continue down this path....for what? We are all scratching our heads on this one.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlesiaS on 06/08/2008 9:47 PM
Here is what I failed to mention....the guy WAS the volunteer webmaster for the HOA and put the live feed up on the HOA website..without permission...I think it presents tremendous liability to the membership. The neighbors on his street are about to riot. He is streaming children at play -- military personnel leaving there homes.....you can even watch children get off the school bus. Sure there is a lot of positive use for this technology... but this application of the technology ... I can't see any positive objective.
Here is what I failed to mention....the guy WAS the volunteer webmaster for the HOA and put the live feed up on the HOA website..without permission...I think it presents tremendous liability to the membership. The neighbors on his street are about to riot. He is streaming children at play -- military personnel leaving there homes.....you can even watch children get off the school bus. Sure there is a lot of positive use for this technology... but this application of the technology ... I can't see any positive objective.
well, IF the street he is filming on is public, and the camera is aimed at front yards visible from public streets, then there really is no crime. Until someone can demonstrate actual damages for a civil suit, he can film public areas all he wants.
AlesiaS (California)
Posts: 6
Posts: 6
Posted:
Well, the local police always suggest that our streets are private except for the main road.....there is a neigborhood advocacy group in our town that has gotten involved....but I doubt they will be able to do anything with this guy....it sickens me to be neighbors with people that simply want to upset the neighborhood for kicks. It is this kind of stuff that makes me want to sell and by a house where there is NO HOA.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
I can understand your frustration but these types of nuts exist everywhere, not just in HOA's.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
DarylF (Washington)
Posts: 157
Posts: 157
Posted:
So people can't have a security camera in front of their house now?
Posting it on a public website isn't cool, but sorry, nothing illegal about it. If you don't want people seeing your kids play, don't let them out of the house.
Posting it on a public website isn't cool, but sorry, nothing illegal about it. If you don't want people seeing your kids play, don't let them out of the house.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posts: 664
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AlesiaS on 06/08/2008 10:16 PM
Well, the local police always suggest that our streets are private except for the main road.....there is a neigborhood advocacy group in our town that has gotten involved....but I doubt they will be able to do anything with this guy....it sickens me to be neighbors with people that simply want to upset the neighborhood for kicks. It is this kind of stuff that makes me want to sell and by a house where there is NO HOA.
Well, the local police always suggest that our streets are private except for the main road.....there is a neigborhood advocacy group in our town that has gotten involved....but I doubt they will be able to do anything with this guy....it sickens me to be neighbors with people that simply want to upset the neighborhood for kicks. It is this kind of stuff that makes me want to sell and by a house where there is NO HOA.
Alesia - Your last statement is confusing. What does the HOA have to do with it? He may have been the HOA webmaster at one time, but as you say he no longer has control over that and is now streaming the video through his private web site. Sounds like the HOA did what they could be removing him as webmaster, but now the matter is beyond their control. You buying a house where there is no HOA wouldn't do anything about this type of problem. You'll run into whack-jobs like this in and out of HOAs.
AlesiaS (California)
Posts: 6
Posts: 6
Posted:
For sure this new board is far better than we have had for about 4 years prior. No doubt, the last board would probably have promoted this as a good idea. This board has done all the right things. I don't care who videos their own front door. I am just frustrated because I think our community is probably a microcosm of our city\state\country\world ... where decency and respect for one another seem to be a low priority.
DarylF (Washington)
Posts: 157
Posts: 157
Posted:
We have had prowlers going through and breaking into cars in driveways. Since then people have added security cams that look out over their driveway, not just at the front door. Obviously a cam pointed down a drveway catches the street and the house on the other side of the road as well.
AlesiaS (California)
Posts: 6
Posts: 6
Posted:
of course, there are numerous positive applications for the webcam, but, our nut job isn't broadcasting his own walkway, driveway or anything related to him....except his neighbors activities.
MargaretF1
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
Well, I happen to live on the street with the webcam, and he turned it on without the board's permission nor were any of the neighbors informed. The board immediately disassociated themselves with him because he refused to take the camera out of the window. It is situated in an upstairs window and covers the whole street, was recording people driving in and out, walking, and children playing, even saw a special needs child get off the school bus delivering the child home and was displayed on a website that a relative actually entered the website from another state. Meanwhile, he is stating that the webcam is off, but it is still in his window so the street is now deserted because of the fact the camera is still in the window. He is advocating someone on each street install a webcam in a window. I can tell you this is not security as we now feel our comfort, safety and privacy are completely invaded, and even though it is no longer shown on a website, we are wondering why the camera is still in the window and who else it hooked up to this invasive webcam! A professional security turned on at night is one thing, but this is the most invasive thing we have encountered and the discomfort level is very high to think you are under surveillance 24 hours a day by some guy who thinks this is right! I can assure you that we will pursue this problem, but I think the courts have to look at this problem and not wait until something happens and then address the rights of this individual. Whose rights are being walked upon, the many people living on a private street within a community or some jerk with a webcam???
EricM6 (Maryland)
Posts: 7
Posts: 7
Posted:
As BrianB mentioned, as long as no sound is being recorded, there is no crime here.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
is the street public or private? there is a difference in the eyes of the law.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posts: 798
Posted:
Go to Google maps to see your neighbours backyard! 
But seriously it sounds like you are over reacting. What the heck are you doing on your streets that you don't want people to see you doing? At least you know the camera is there so you might think twice about doing something inappropriate...now just imagine all those cameras that film you in other places that you might not know exist. Cameras are everywhere. Act accordingly. If people can see you in your front yard I don't see how a camera is any different.
But seriously it sounds like you are over reacting. What the heck are you doing on your streets that you don't want people to see you doing? At least you know the camera is there so you might think twice about doing something inappropriate...now just imagine all those cameras that film you in other places that you might not know exist. Cameras are everywhere. Act accordingly. If people can see you in your front yard I don't see how a camera is any different.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I have to agree with you on this one, DJ.
Plus there's the "Rotten Neighbor" website that not only shows your neighbor's back yard, but also any snarky comments the other neighbors feel like posting about him!
The only expectation of privacy I have is when I'm behind my front door. and given my husband's penchant for hiding cameras in the house, even that is questionable at time! 0.0
Plus there's the "Rotten Neighbor" website that not only shows your neighbor's back yard, but also any snarky comments the other neighbors feel like posting about him!
The only expectation of privacy I have is when I'm behind my front door. and given my husband's penchant for hiding cameras in the house, even that is questionable at time! 0.0
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Once you step outside your home you have zero expectation of privacy, even if it is on your own property. I am not saying I agree at all with streaming this video to a website, however, I don't see any legal recourse to make him take the camera down. You would be surprised at how many cameras watch us on a daily basis no matter where you go.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Our beloved retired Red Wings player, Gordie Howe's, home was being videotaped by a neighbor. He claimed Howe was running a business out of the home; Howe claimed that his wife needed 24/7 help for the Alzheimer's, plus therapy, and homecare workers.
The neighbor was trying to prove that the car traffic was really vendors, customers, etc. There were quite a few headlines about it; it went to court, then there was an out of court settlement, results not disclosed. Howe claimed that the "spying" was a violation of his privacy rights, causing emotional pain, in the suit.
The neighbor was trying to prove that the car traffic was really vendors, customers, etc. There were quite a few headlines about it; it went to court, then there was an out of court settlement, results not disclosed. Howe claimed that the "spying" was a violation of his privacy rights, causing emotional pain, in the suit.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Susan:
I think in this case it was more how the information was used rather than the fact that is was gathered. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits us from filming the open air, even it if is private property.
However, there are rules against making untrue allegations and causing emotional distress...
I think in this case it was more how the information was used rather than the fact that is was gathered. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits us from filming the open air, even it if is private property.
However, there are rules against making untrue allegations and causing emotional distress...
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Good point, intent is the issue . . .
Original poster did not explain WHY this person was taping his neighbors, PLUS broadcasting it on his website. What is his intent?
Original poster did not explain WHY this person was taping his neighbors, PLUS broadcasting it on his website. What is his intent?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BradP on 06/10/2008 11:41 AM
Susan:
I think in this case it was more how the information was used rather than the fact that is was gathered. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits us from filming the open air, even it if is private property.
However, there are rules against making untrue allegations and causing emotional distress...
Susan:
I think in this case it was more how the information was used rather than the fact that is was gathered. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits us from filming the open air, even it if is private property.
However, there are rules against making untrue allegations and causing emotional distress...
FYI Brad, my favorite rights removal law, the Patriot Act, can/does make it illegal to film "open air" in some places, if the president decides so.
hoatalk (California)
Posts: 603
Posts: 603
Posted:
One caveat: 'peeping' is not legal and if the camera is pointed at other home's windows, this may be against the law.....MAYBE....it's just an idea, not sure if it's right.
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KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I personally think a lot of people have way over-reacted and now the person is having a back reaction. Come on, the street is abandoned because of the camera?? Do you really think anyone cares?
My reality (which I choose to believe is reasonable) is that the only people who probably care are those in the area. Nobody else really cares to try and find the pictures of a kid going inside from the school bus. I know that the common thing is to believe that perverts are using such things to hunt down their victims, but look at an alternative reality. It is much easier to simply drive by a school. It is much easier to simply drive by any neighborhood near a school shortly after it lets out.
There are people who have a legitimate concern about such a camera. For instance those who can't seem to go anywhere without having a group of photographers trying to take their picture. And those who are hiding from someone who wishes them harm.
Most likely the guy thought it would be pretty neat to be able to look in on the neighborhood and see what was happening. It is entirely possible that he meant no harm to anyone. And now that people have made him out to be such an ogre he is fighting back the best he knows how. By advocating everyone get a camera.
The best advice I can give you is to ignore him and wait for him to go away.
My reality (which I choose to believe is reasonable) is that the only people who probably care are those in the area. Nobody else really cares to try and find the pictures of a kid going inside from the school bus. I know that the common thing is to believe that perverts are using such things to hunt down their victims, but look at an alternative reality. It is much easier to simply drive by a school. It is much easier to simply drive by any neighborhood near a school shortly after it lets out.
There are people who have a legitimate concern about such a camera. For instance those who can't seem to go anywhere without having a group of photographers trying to take their picture. And those who are hiding from someone who wishes them harm.
Most likely the guy thought it would be pretty neat to be able to look in on the neighborhood and see what was happening. It is entirely possible that he meant no harm to anyone. And now that people have made him out to be such an ogre he is fighting back the best he knows how. By advocating everyone get a camera.
The best advice I can give you is to ignore him and wait for him to go away.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KirkW1 on 06/10/2008 5:08 PM
The best advice I can give you is to ignore him and wait for him to go away.
The best advice I can give you is to ignore him and wait for him to go away.
*golf clap* excellent advice.
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