💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

LarryJ1 (North Dakota)
Posts: 1
Posted:
We have one owner of our association that is legally licensed to conduct day care operations, but the association wants to limit these business in the future if possible. Would any statute or law prevent us from doing this?
Our main concern is insurance coverage. We have spoken to the day care provider to get additional insurance that would cover the association in case they have a claim against them, but they have yet to do so.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You might try checking with whoever issues business permits in your area. I know in Indiana, there are certain state and, I believe, local requirements for day care centers, depending on the type being run. For example, if the center is designated for infant care, there's a limit on how many babies can be enrolled at a time. There may also be rules regarding how the building is set up (e.g. a minimum number of restrooms.

If the homes aren't configurated for that, this could be a way to write a rule limiting them (according to the process your CCRs have laid out).

Also check with local authorities on insurance requirements - if this homeowner doesn't have what's necessary, maybe the city or county could step in and compel him/her to do so

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
So what you are saying is currently your governing documents allow for businesses to be run out of the homes?

Our governing documents do not allow businesses to be run out of the home.

We have discovered within the last month a resident who is running a day care center, even to the point of being certified to operate with 6 or fewer kids (which most home-based day cares locally are).

However, not only do our governing documents not allow businesses to be run out of the home, our NEIGHBORHOOD ZONING REGULATIONS, set by the Zoning Code enforcement of our city/county/Metro area, do not allow for home-based day care centers (among many other home businesses) in our area.

We simply turned the address into the local enforcement branch and they have inspected and issued a violation notice, and a fine, and have given them 30 days to cease day-care operations there.

In addition, our attorney has prepared a cease and desist letter, based on our CC&Rs.

So, first, check your governing documents, and, second, check your local zoning laws.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
not to nit pick too much Michele, but do your rules really allow no businesses to be operated, or just some business?

WE had a similar rule: "No businesses may be operated from or within the home." However, we couldn't enforce it very well, because we had a hard time enforcing it fairly/as written. We could try to stop someone who operated a day care, and they would question why we never went after the neighbors who did web design, or the couple who sold antiques on ebay, etc..

As to the original question: I could be wrong, but i can think of no laws that would stop an HOA from properly implementing such a ban on home based day care, (if done correctly, legally, etc.). There is no inherent right to day care in the law, i believe.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
I think the "no business can be run in the home" rule is common in the majority of HOAs. However, I also believe many HOAs interpret that rule to mean any business that is a nuisance to the community (a welding shop) or creates undue traffic in the neighborhood.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Brian, that is truly nitpicking and it doesn't really apply.

We don't have to police each and every person's home for whether they are running accounting services or call centers.

We do have a duty, however, to investigate and enforce against each and every complaint we get.

If a business is operating within a home to the extent that the increased traffic and/or parking or external indications of a business, such as a sign, or similar, becomes evident within the neighbor to a casual viewer, then we can, and have successfully, enforced against it.

Even the homeowner's own attorney in this case didn't go that route, "but you didn't/haven't enforced against other businesses . . .yada yada yada"

Why didn't they?

First because it's an extremely weak defense.

Because we, in fact, HAVE enforced against any home-based business that has created enough visibility to make the neighbors aware that it existed.

And it doesn't even have to be a "nuisance," because our CC&Rs don't say "not allowed, except if they don't become a nuisance."

We had another homeowner try to run a Landscaping company out of his home. How did we know about it?

He parked 2.5 ton trucks in his drive full of mulch and he stored 15 or more wheelbarrows on his front porch.

We had another owner try to run a Yard Sale business out of her home. How did we know? She had yard sales every weekend.

A judge determined that yard sales occasionally do not rise to the level of running a business. Having one every weekend does, even if it shows a loss, which she claimed hers did.

I'm pretty tired of HOAs failing to enforce valid, enforceable CC&Rs because they cower to the mere implication that someone will question obscure and tenuous connections. If you've got spotty, inconsistent enforcement of ANY CC&R, then you'll have trouble, regardless of which on you suddenly try to enforce against. But not doing so because someone might claim that an Unknown Jonny Doe MIGHT be doing accounting work from a room in his home he refers to as his "office," is just silly.

Is a couple running an antique business on ebay? Really? Can you prove that they are? I can't. I can, however, prove that you have 10 to 12 cars come to your house in the morning and in the evening every weekday and drop kids off at your house. I can also prove that you are listed in the State Database as a Home-based Day Care Center, complete with certification dates. And the file also shows that you re-certify EVERY year.

I can also prove that you advertise in local print media as XXXXX Christian Day Care center, complete with name, phone number and address.

Where is the "unfair" aspect?

How hard was that to enforce?

Just saying. . .
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I respect your side of the arguement Michele, i truly do. I just know from experience that our board was pilloried because of our badly worded "rule" that prevented "Any owner from operating a business from the home".

I tried to practice the "don't ask/don't tell" policy, and luckily, had very few complaints. When we did have a day care/baby sitting service open their doors, a simple chat from us to the owner was enough. However, IF she had wanted to, she could have made our life difficult, by simply pointing out that we were NOT enforcing the rule against others in the HOA, just her. She didn't, and the sleeping dog stayed still.

However, if you have a rule that states "no business", how can a board tell one homeowner "yours is a business because it has traffic but their business isn't a business because it doesn't." with a straight face? If the real rule is "traffic" or "external advertising", then why doesn't the board change the rule to mean what they mean? How can you pick and choose and remain consistent? Is one truck parked outside okay? Two trucks Not okay? a truck less than 2 tons okay, but a truck with a derrick on it not okay? If i advertise on the internet, that's okay, but advertise in a paper is not okay? When the next board comes in power, is three kids in daycare okay, but 4 is not anymore?

If the board has guidelines (like your board seems to have had), that helps ensure consistency, and that's great. Such guidelines add meat to the bones of the rule, and flesh it out (nice bio analogy, eh?).

As for how I know who runs a business out of their home, in most cases, it was easy. We talked to our neighbors, noticed when UPS came to the door twice a day, signed for packages for "Dolly's Candles" when Dolly wasn't home, talked to the website designer about his roadblocks, went to a tupperware party for the fourth time as a (fill the hole, make the party look bigger) guest, saw the bumper stickers on the cars, etc.. Usually, a simple "How's work?" conversation in the driveway or at the mailbox was enough to get a litany of how bad business was, the problems they had with internet connections, phone lines messing up, not enough room in the garage to store items, increasing or declining sales, etc..

Honestly, i am not against people running a "home based business"... i wrote a novel from my kitchen table, which technically is a home based business (well, it would have been a business, had it actually sold). I just wish that HOA's would write the rules better to ensure enforcement from board to board, year to year, instead of just ignoring parts they don't like, favoring people they do, etc.. I think it is unfair to people entering a contract to have very ambiguous, undefined terms that can come back and bite them later. It's too much like "bring me a rock management" in reverse, when you say "No businesses!", and then say later "well, that one is okay." "So is that one" "And that one" "and that's okay, right now" "Not that one, of course. No home based business are allowed, can't you read?"

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Better watch out Brian, just because your book didn't sell doesn't mean it isn't a business, afterall, Michele's yard sale lady didn't make a profit but apparently was still a business!

Kidding aside, I'm with you on the flawed argument about something is a business if it increases traffic or is somehow noticeable in a HOA vs a web designer/call centre or whatever that isn't noticeable....UNLESS the CCR's differentiate and say something other than 'no home based business' to distinguish only ones that can be noticed or have an impact. It may be harder for Michele to determine whether a business exists but it doesn't mean she wouldn't have to go thru the motions if someone made the complaint....unless she wants to open up a claim of selective enforcment.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryJ1 on 06/02/2008 7:14 PM
We have one owner of our association that is legally licensed to conduct day care operations, but the association wants to limit these business in the future if possible. Would any statute or law prevent us from doing this?
Our main concern is insurance coverage. We have spoken to the day care provider to get additional insurance that would cover the association in case they have a claim against them, but they have yet to do so.


Larry just because the daycare is "legally licensed" does not mean you have to allow it if it violates the CC&R's. Do your documents allow a daycare or business to be operated in your HOA, if so then you probably cannot require them to have more insurance unless the covenant requires it? To do so you would need to change the covenants. Our documents do allow a home occupation but put restrictions on them and a daycare would not be allowed.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Ours simply states:

Section 8. Business: Home Occupations. No trade or business of any kind (and no practice of medicine, dentistry, chiropody, osteopathy and other like endeavors) shall be conducted on any lot, nor shall anything be done thereon which may become a nuisance to the neighborhood. Notwithstanding the provisions hereof or of Section 1 of the Article II, a new house may be used by a builder thereon as a model home for display or for the builders own office provided said use terminates within eighteen months from the completion of the house or such additional period of time as may be expressly agreed to in writing by Developer.

Now, again, I don't know how many times I can state this, we do NOT police the neighborhood.

We do, however, pursue enforcement against any notification that we can subsequently verify and substantiate.

If UPS or FedEx shows up a couple times a day to a house, and it's just coming to John Doe, we cannot verify/prove he is running a home business, IF we get a complaint about him.

However, IF the UPS FedEx guy leaves them with neighbors and it's address to Joe's Candle shop, then we can AND WILL require that he cease operations IF WE'VE RECEIVED A COMPLAINT ABOUT HIM.

I only mentioned the size of the Mulch truck because I couldn't believe he would be so stupid as to leave the truck there. It just made our job of verifying that a business was being run out of the house ONCE WE GOT THE NOTIFICATION for a neighbor that it was happening.

The Weekly Yard Sale is clearly a business, at least a judge felt so and made the distinction between someone getting rid of junk once or twice a year and someone setting up a permanent "store front" by selling junk out of the house every weekend.

We could very easily look someone in the eye, with no degree of qualm whatsoever, if they say, "Why are you going after me and not so-and-so?"

We get that same comment on 90% of the notices of violation we send out on almost every infraction of the CC&Rs.

To which we ALWAYS reply, "If you believe So-and-So is doing XXXXX, then please submit a formal notification and we'd be happy to pursue it."

We don't sweat it in the least, and we don't let it intimidate us from enforcing against the violations we CAN prove.

Oh, and the day care center was also advertising online at local craigslist-type sites, so, yes, any advertising would have further supplemented our proof, so of course we would use it.

In fact, funny story, when we first heard that she was running a day care we sent her a letter requesting that she cease operations.

She called our president and cried and cried, "Why would some one tell us that? She's just watching some kids for her friends who need help FREE OF CHARGE! She swore up and down she was just being a "good neighbor" and was not running a day care."

The Prez gave her the benefit of the doubt.

A week later, another board member was looking for some nearby day cares because she wanted to start leaving her son in a Parent's Day Out program.

She searched the local Day Care Database that is maintained by a clearing house type place that reviews centers to make sure they are safe and comply with all local laws, etc.

Lo and behold, up pops the address and the resident's name beside the XXXXX Christian Day Care. With a little ad explaining how long they have been in operation. "Providing quality in-home child care since 2003." The only way you can get on that database is to provide your certification as a valid operating child care center from the commonwealth of Kentucky.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
I am a staunch advocate of the board enforcing the restrictions set forth in the CCRs. However, I think a little common sense needs to come into play at times. First of all, the CCRs are boiler plate documents that developers/builders pick and choose from depending upon the type community they are developing. Many of these "restrictions" were written many, many years ago and no one has bothered to update them. The parking restrictions for pickup trucks are a good example as is the "no business" restriction. Since this thread deals with the "no business" restriction, I'll elaborate on that. I'm sure this restriction was written at a time when home businesses were not very common. I doubt that a developer is concerned with most of the type "businesses" people operate from their homes these days. IMO, the main concern was to not allow any type of manufacturing business. A business that would create noxious fumes, debris, loud noises, alot of traffic, etc., etc. Anything that would be a nuisance or a disturbance to the neighborhood. Many businesses being operated from home these days are not visible, don't impose any hardships on the residents of the neighborhood, certainly don't detract from property values; so of what harm are they!

I'm not sure that Brian's concerns are a valid reason to restrict a realtor from maintaining a home office or a homemaker from running an online candle shop from home. There was a case adjudicated by the OAH last year that found in favor of the HOA. The plaintiff was fighting a CCR violation with the defense that others in the community with the same "violation" were not being sent violation notices. The OAH ruled that because the HOA did not send violation notices to everyone did not mean they couldn't send one to him. There can be many justifiable reasons why one person receives a violation notice and another does not -- for the same "percieved" violation.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
While we're getting a little off from John's original question and I think Michele's HOA is taking the right tact on enforcing when there is a complaint. Mary while I applaud your common sense approach do you just apply it here? What about other sections of your documents are they open to common sense or do you enforce to the letter? What may be "common sense" to you or me is not necessarily "common sense" to anyone else. Either enforce it or change it. Our documents which were written in 1992 before telecommuting was popular still work for us:

The restriction above to the use of any unit as a single residence shall not prohibit the conduct of a “home occupation” or profession carried on by residents permitted to reside on the premises under Section 7.1 of this Declaration and in connection with which (a) there is used no sign or display that will indicate from the exterior that the building is being utilized in whole or in part
for any purpose other than that of a residential dwelling, (b) there is no commodity sold, or service dispensed upon the premises, (c) no person is employed other than residents permitted to reside in the unit under Section 7.1.A (1) above, and (d) no mechanical or electrical equipment is used except such as is permissible for and is customarily found in purely domestic or household
premises for the family residing therein. A professional person may use his residence for infrequent consultation, emergency treatment, or performance of occasional or emergency religious rites, but not for the general practice of his profession. Permitted home occupations shall not include barber shops, beauty shops, shoe or hat repair shops, tailoring shops or any type of pick-up station or similar commercial activities but the recitation of these particular
exclusions shall not be deemed to constitute authorization for conduct of other businesses or enterprises which are precluded by this or other sections of this Declaration.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
KathyT2 (Florida)
Posts: 22
Posted:
We changed our docs years ago that business can be home based as long as it has no walk in customers or commercial deliverys. This eliminates day care, hairdressers and freight forwarders but doesn't eliminate web designers, bookkeepers, and greeting card writers.

Selling stuff on ebay is okay because it has UPS and Fedex but so do homes. Its working out just fine.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
for the record, i like Michele's approach too: the rule has a "nuisance clause" which allows some decision making and leniency (whereas ours simply said "none". I also believe emphatically in her other comments regarding answering a complaint versus sticking a nose into the situation out of curiosity, reminding complainers that if they want action, they need to follow the process, etc.. That's the way it SHOULD be handled. I think they are 99.99999% dead on!

and FYI, my novel can't be a business, it had zero income. I think you have to have some income to be a business. I could be wrong, and eagerly await someone to show me a business model without income.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
That's easy.

Any business model where you enter into a partnership with your children.

No matter the trade or industry!

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Brian, income isn't necessary, just that the expectation was to have income. Did you write the book with the expectation? Where can I get a copy.

Kathy, Does it eliminate day-cares? So as long as I go pickup the customers kids (the kids aren't the customer) outside the hoa my daycare would be ok. They aren't 'walk-in customers'. Guess a dog sitting business would also be ok so long as I pickup and deliver them back to my customer?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
I see where you are headed with those arguements... The intent/desire to make money is enough to declare it a business, whether you actually ever make a sale or not. Buying 800 candles with the intent to resell them is a business. Selling a single candle is income, and selling all 800 for more than you paid is gross profit/income.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
So, would the reverse be true?

If i operated a day care in an HOA, but didn't charge for it, could it exist? All the traffic, all the kids, but no money/income occurs, then the "home based business" rule would not apply, correct?

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 06/04/2008 9:39 AM
I see where you are headed with those arguements... The intent/desire to make money is enough to declare it a business, whether you actually ever make a sale or not. Buying 800 candles with the intent to resell them is a business. Selling a single candle is income, and selling all 800 for more than you paid is gross profit/income.


Brian,

If you are charging for your services or your product (your book), then it's a business. Many businesses are such that some years you realize a profit and some years you realize a loss. I doubt the IRS will allow you to operate a business that is a loss year after year after year. That becomes a good tax write-off which I'm sure they would frown on!
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 06/03/2008 3:01 PM
While we're getting a little off from John's original question and I think Michele's HOA is taking the right tact on enforcing when there is a complaint. Mary while I applaud your common sense approach do you just apply it here? What about other sections of your documents are they open to common sense or do you enforce to the letter? What may be "common sense" to you or me is not necessarily "common sense" to anyone else. Either enforce it or change it. Our documents which were written in 1992 before telecommuting was popular still work for us:

The restriction above to the use of any unit as a single residence shall not prohibit the conduct of a “home occupation” or profession carried on by residents permitted to reside on the premises under Section 7.1 of this Declaration and in connection with which (a) there is used no sign or display that will indicate from the exterior that the building is being utilized in whole or in part
for any purpose other than that of a residential dwelling, (b) there is no commodity sold, or service dispensed upon the premises, (c) no person is employed other than residents permitted to reside in the unit under Section 7.1.A (1) above, and (d) no mechanical or electrical equipment is used except such as is permissible for and is customarily found in purely domestic or household
premises for the family residing therein. A professional person may use his residence for infrequent consultation, emergency treatment, or performance of occasional or emergency religious rites, but not for the general practice of his profession. Permitted home occupations shall not include barber shops, beauty shops, shoe or hat repair shops, tailoring shops or any type of pick-up station or similar commercial activities but the recitation of these particular
exclusions shall not be deemed to constitute authorization for conduct of other businesses or enterprises which are precluded by this or other sections of this Declaration.

Glen,

Your "home occupation" restriction is rather comprehensive. Many are not as detailed leaving the board no other recourse but to interpret. This is where common sense comes into play. However, I do not advocate the board changing the intent of a restriction in their quest to interpret or to use common sense to rule. And, while it's fine to say "either enforce it or change it", that isn't always a practical solution. We all know how hard it is to get the required number of votes to amend the CCRs!
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 06/04/2008 7:17 PM
Brian,

If you are charging for your services or your product (your book), then it's a business. Many businesses are such that some years you realize a profit and some years you realize a loss. I doubt the IRS will allow you to operate a business that is a loss year after year after year. That becomes a good tax write-off which I'm sure they would frown on!

So, since i never charged anyone to write my book, and i never received a dime from it, it's not a business? Even though my intent was to sell it? SO you are back to my argument, that to be a business, some income must occur...

As for the IRS, THIS law i know: There is no requirement in the law, IRS rules, etc. that requires a business makes a profit. You can run a business for 25 years, and never make a profit. The IRS requires that you demonstrate good faith in running the business, but they do not (and cannot legally) require your business to ever make a profit. They can frown all they want, but they can't legally penalize you for being a bad businessperson, just a bad recordkeeper, bad accountant, etc.. There is due diligence on your part, and there are things that will get you audited, continually, but it is not illegal to never turn a profit in a business.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here