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DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Our CC&Rs includes a section on outbuildings (sheds) that states in part:
"All outbuildings shall be constructed of quality building material, completely finished with the same shingles, including color, that were applied on the house and painted on the outside to match the body color of the house, and shall be of quality and character that will be in harmony with the house on said Lot."

Recently a homeowner submitted a request to put a shed on their property. The request included photos and brochures from the store where they intended to purchase the shed. After reviewing the request, the ACC approved it.

Turns out that the shed is a resin shed with a solid resin roof - no shingles. The color of the shed is pretty close to the color of the stucco house, and the black roof does match the black roof shingles that are on the house. Most of the sheds in the neighborhood have wood siding to match the siding of the house and the same shingles as were used on the house. Since this house is stucco though, IMO the use of the resin shed was about as close as they could get to matching the house without building a stucco shed. I think it would be silly to require the homeowner to put shingles on the roof of this shed.

There are a couple of homeowners though (former BOD members who chose not to run in the last election) who feel that the shed is in violation. They sent me a message pointing out the shed, and I responded that the homeowner had received approval from the ACC. These two are now demanding to see all ACC requests/approvals back to Jan 1.

I guess technically the ACC goofed in allowing the shed since the roof doesn't have shingles. But I feel that this was an acceptable compromise anyway. I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish by reviewing all the requests (there haven't really been that many), but these two have been known for being sticklers in the past. I'm not about to go back and try to tell the homeowner that the shed isn't allowed after he got approval, but should I be concerned about this "second guessing"?
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
If the shed approved by the ACC did not meet the CCRs, the approval is invalid. No one is allowed to violate the CCRs, not even the ACC. There is no such thing as an acceptable compromise. If you want to change the CCRs to allow the type of shed that can be used, then follow the procedure to amend your CCRs and do that. Until that happens, there can be no exceptions. (Besides, once you start to make exceptions for one, you have to make them for all; the precedent has been established).

The ACC should have known beforehand from the brochure supplied that the shed would not meet the requirement of the CCRs. The problem is, now, how do you get out of it?

IMO, the homeowner should be informed that the approval is invalid because the CCRs cannot be violated. If it is a prefab shed and the homeowner can return it with no loss, then good. If it can be sold so the homeowner can get his money back, good. Otherwise, the association may have to make up any loss to the homeowner since it was their mistake (the ACC's mistake) that resulted in him buying the shed.

Be more careful the next time.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
I would disagree with BruceF1 that the ACC approval is invalid. The homeowner followed procedure and the request was approved and there is probably nothing in the CCR's that address anything beyond that. There is nothing obligating the homeowner to remove it whether they are reimbursed for costs or not. It's approved. It is the ACC/Boards problem not the homeowner who has gotten approval. They can ask but there is nothing compelling the homeowner to go along, other than perhaps goodwill. If it was me, I'd only agree to the removal/replacement if the HOA want to pick up any cost difference for a shed with shingles!
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
A Committee can NOT make any ruling that is in conflict with higher authority rules. The poster who said this Board may have to eat crow is right.

Now . . . someone needs to go over those CCRs and see if they are restrictive in a silly sense, i.e. outdated. Since resin roofs were probably not even invented when those CCRs were written, it may be time for some updating.

That's the problem with putting iron-glad rules in CCRs or Articles, instead of passing the authorization on to the judgment of the next generation of Board members or AC.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Susan..."A Committee can NOT make any ruling that is in conflict with higher authority rules."

Sure they can make a ruling. They did, of course they shouldn't have but they did. The HO followed the procedure and was approved so it still falls back to the ARC and Board as their problem not the HO's.

They may be forced to allow this to remain unless the HO wants to voluntarily replace it and be compensated for ALL his costs, time, etc.

Good news is the Shed should only last a thousand years or so before it starts to disintegrate!
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
I have to agree with DJ.

Our Architectural Committee approved, in writing, a metal roof on an outbuilding (a copper roof on a pool house).

In signing off on the approval, the Arch Committee chair wrote, "We acknowledge that metal roofs are not allowed per our community guidelines, however because this roof is expensive and is nice looking, we are approving on waiver this roof."

We've had homeowners throw all kinds of fits over this, and even have had one try to do the same thing, and it was rejected.

The problem is, once the Arch Comm approved the individual construction of this outbuilding, we, as the board, cannot UN-approve it and make him replace the roof.

We MAY, however, if push comes to shove, have to allow metal roofs on other outbuildings. We will just have to wait and see what happens on that.

But that Arch Committee person is no longer on the board or the committee.

We had to get rid of him because he WAS, in fact, inconsistent with approvals and waivers, granting them to his friends and denying them to people he thinks dissed him.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Well, this is news to me that a Committee can overrule the Board and the CCRs!!
LisaS11 (California)
Posts: 38
Posted:
Our Master Architectural Committee approved the use of a polymer corrugated material to be put over an open courtyard to turn it into more of a "sun room" The sun room is in plain view of the street. Our CC&Rs forbid corrugated roofing materials of any kind.

That was mistake #1

Mistake #2 is that it took the CC&R Inspectors and their Boss SIX YEARS to notice the unauthorized materials, which were, I'll repeat in plain sight from the street.

Mistake #3...instead of realizing that after six years and a MAC approval, what can you really do, the CC&R folks decided to start fining the guy. It went to the Hearing Board, they said he needed to replace the roof, and he appealed to the Board. Aside from making us look like fools for our staff missing this eyesore of a violation for six years, we could have been sued by the homeowner- isn't it past the statute of limitations?

We voted to allow him to keep the roof with the stipulation that when it comes time to replace it, it be with approved materials, or should he sell the home he either replace the roof or provide a replacement allowance to the buyer.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
It's called a Screw-up! But it isn't the HO that has to pay for it. How would anyone who follows a legal process, HOA or otherwise, and then has an approving authority reverse their decision AFTER they've given approval and a HO has incurred expenses/time? The whole system goes up in smoke if that is tolerated. What kind of confidence could anyone have if approvals can be taken back after given? Kind of makes the case for not bothering to get approval in the first place. Only exception I could see is if the HO intentionally deceived.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Thanks for the feedback everyone. We had our Board meeting and these two showed up. Turns out they are partly just mad at ME. When they first sent an email message to us to inform us of the problem, I was the one who responded and told them that the shed had been approved. For some reason, in their minds that meant that I had personally given the homeowner the approval. There are some other personal issues going on there, but I had nothing to do with the original approval of the shed. While I was part of the ACC for about a month earlier this year, I quit the ACC when the Board asked me to come back onto the Board.

They were also miffed because they weren't notified about the shed request. As I mentioned before, they are former Board members but did not run for office in the last election. One of them also ran the ACC while he was on the Board and had assumed that he was still on the ACC even though he didn't sign up for it or otherwise give the Board notice. While our CC&Rs don't prohibit a Board member from being on the ACC, it doesn't seem like a very good idea to me, which is why I quit the ACC when I rejoined the Board.

FWIW: Our CC&Rs do include a clause that gives the ACC fairly broad powers:
"Discretion of Committee" ­ The decision to approve or disapprove proposed plans rests entirely with the Architectural Control Committee, and shall be authorized to issue rules relating to the implementation of these Declarations, including governing the design, construction, location, and appearance of all Improvements and landscaping on the Property.

That clause has been used in the past to grant variances. Typically these variances dealt with Satellite dish placement and trailer parking, but I see no reason why a variance can't also be granted in this case. As I mentioned, the shed looks fairly decent and the only thing that is strictly out of compliance is that the roof material is not shingles. Maybe we'll ask him to glue some shingles onto the roof. I may even have some extras from my shed.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DwightT on 05/22/2008 7:08 AM

FWIW: Our CC&Rs do include a clause that gives the ACC fairly broad powers:
"Discretion of Committee" ­ The decision to approve or disapprove proposed plans rests entirely with the Architectural Control Committee, and shall be authorized to issue rules relating to the implementation of these Declarations, including governing the design, construction, location, and appearance of all Improvements and landscaping on the Property.

And an additional "FWIW" is that this particular clause allows for the homeowner with the shed to ignore any request at all that comes now asking him to put shingles on his resin shed.

The ACC approved his shed. It did not conditionally approve the shed, meaning that it was approved as submitted.

With this clause in your CC&Rs, the board can no more go back and order changes to the shed now, nor can they make him take it down

Lessons learned, is how you need to communicate it to the complaining former board members.

"We won't do that again," is the only reply you can offer.

Also, we have no restriction on board members also being on the ACC. I don't know why that would necessarily be an issue anyway. But if your docs don't address, it's perfectly acceptable.

This year was the first year in our 10 years as the governing board that the Arc Committee did NOT consist of board members.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MicheleD on 05/20/2008 7:36 PM
In signing off on the approval, the Arch Committee chair wrote, "We acknowledge that metal roofs are not allowed per our community guidelines, however because this roof is expensive and is nice looking, we are approving on waiver this roof."

"Michele,

If this is what your AC actually said, and I interpret "communtiy guidelines" in the literal sense, then I would agree, the AC can make any decision it wants. Guidelines are not requirements, and generally are within a board's or committee's power to create, change, modify, grant exceptions to, etc. at will.

But CCRs are requirements, generally requiring a large number of homeowners to amend or change, and are not within a board's or committee's power to change, modify, or grant exceptions to. If that were true, then the CCRs are just guidelines as well, as some board members have suggested and as we've sometimes seen posted in this forum.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
A brief history: Our CC&Rs originally did not allow sheds at all.

They were later amended to allow some outbuildings, and very detailed specifications were listed, which many residents felt were too restrictive and would cost them thousands of dollars more than a decent shed reasonably should cost.

One person put up a tiny shed per the first amended CC&R specifications and it cost him roughly $17,000. And that was something like 5 years ago.

Then the residents amended the CC&Rs again to relax some of the specifications listed in the CC&Rs and allowed for "specification guidelines" to be developed that would only require the board to alter or amend going forward. That was because the first amendment dictated materials to be the same regardless of structure (i.e., a gazebo would have had to have been brick if the main structure were brick), and if a gazebo were erected, you could not then also have a shed or poolhouse.

The new amendment read:

"c) A choice of any one of the following, in addition to any gazebos, shall be allowed per lot: storage structure, pool house or playhouse.

Any such structure shall have the materials approved by the Architectural Committee in terms of quality, design, colors and material. Architectural Guidelines (drafted and approved by the board) in existence at the time of request for the building shall apply. Footings shall be concrete. Total square footage shall not exceed 144 square feet. No metal structures shall be allowed.

The Architectural Committee shall have final approval on plans and placement of any such structure on the lot. All utilities to be underground per Jefferson County Codes."

The Outbuilding Guidelines that existed at the time the poolhouse was approved were this, concerning roofing materials:

"Roof: The exterior roofing material must be similar in composition and color as that of your house, or of some other generally accepted high-quality material as approved by the Architectural Committee, and must be of gabled style with a pitch no less than 4/12. No barnshaped roofs will be allowed. Metal, including corrugated metal, wood shingles, or corrugate fiberglass will not be acceptable."

Not only was the metal roof approved, but it is also copper, and the shingled roof of the main structure is black. So even the color-matching did not coincide.

However, once the approval was give, the waiver of the guidelines, our hands were tied.

KathrynM3 (California)
Posts: 18
Posted:
I am considering running for a seat on the BOD. What would the benefits be and why would someone want to run for this position other than a vested interest? I am also on the arc committe and have had problems as the previous people on the committee allowed for buildings and corrals that are clearly contrary to the CCR's.
KathrynM3 (California)
Posts: 18
Posted:
So what is being said here is that if one person was allowed to build an exterior building NOT conforming to the CCR's that anyone else who submits for an exterior building not conforming to ccr's can?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Not necessarily, Kathryn, but you water down your case, as a board, if you grant "special" waivers that can't be supported by things like the layout of the lot doesn't allow for strict compliance, and so forth.

In our case, for example, the sheds must all be place within 10 feet of the main structure and in such a way as not to be seen from the front of the house if one were to stand directly in front of the main structure.

What does one do if the shape of their house and/or lot doesn't allow for that? Well, you'd have to grant a waiver and explain that as the reason why.

If the waiver is just capricious or arbitrary or doesn't have some solid reason why it is a waiver or variance (such as the roof in my previous case above simply "looking nice"), or if the waivers given aren't consistent in their reasons, then you have some problems.

If someone were to take you to court, you would have a difficult time proving, or even explaining, why the CC&R against doing it the way they want it IS, in fact, a problem.

If your CC&Rs say "no metal roofs," and you have already allowed a copper one, and the only reason for the waiver given is written down and it says "because it's going to be pretty," then, if I felt strongly enough about MY copper roof, I could take you to court to force you to give an approval/waiver, just as you did for the other guy.

The judge, while maybe keen on governing docs, would still have to look at us and say, "why?" "Tell me why this one is going to be any worse for your subdivision than the ones you've already allowed?"

We simply couldn't do it.

If you start down the road of inconsistency or ignoring or "waiving" your CC&Rs in some cases, and not others, then you are going down a slippery slope that will make it tougher to enforce against.

Those types of inconsistencies with enforcing CC&Rs are much harder to survive than inconsistencies in enforcing CC&Rs where the homeowner is actually VIOLATING them. In these types of cases, you, as a board, are saying, "In these cases, it's OKAY to violate because X, Y, and Z."

Well, you better have some solid, explainable "X, Y and Zs" then!
KathrynM3 (California)
Posts: 18
Posted:
The problem with this HOA is it was the FORMER arc committee that made allowances just because so now it is in the current arc committee to staned by the CCR's so there are no further variances, with the exception as you said, lot topography, size, shape, etc. I still am unsure if we can say no to a metal building if one has already been constructed WITH approval from the previous arc members.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
You can still disapprove it. And you SHOULD still disapprove it.

You shouldn't just throw up your hands and say, "Oh well. Docs are bird cage liners now."

And our board would go by the letter/intent of the CC&Rs from a certain point forward, too. (which we did have to do, in fact.)

The homeowner wanting to get a similar variance approval would be taking a roll of the dice, too, if she were to fight it.

Especially if the CURRENT board can show that it does not provide arbitrary variances.

What you might want to do is look at sending letters to the other "approved" projects to let them know that they are not in line with the CC&Rs and their approvals are in conflict with the documents. However, due to their previous approval, their project will be "grandfathered." When the time comes to repair or replace the project (fence, shed, whatever it is), then the renovated building/fence must come into strict compliance with the CC&Rs.

That way, if you ARE challenged going forward trying to enforce against something that was "approved by variance," then you have something to show that will strengthen your position.

KathrynM3 (California)
Posts: 18
Posted:
Excellent idea Michele. We, on the arc committee, are not permitting people to do as they pleae just because the Jones' have done it. The letter idea is awesome and I shall let my fellow members know. Appreciate your time.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
As I have said before, neither the board nor the ACC, has the authority to grant waivers or exceptions to the restrictions that are in the CCRs. The CCRs can only be amended or changed by a vote of a specified percentage of homeowners, and in many states, that is even spelled out by law. By granting an exception or a waiver to a provision in the CCRs, the board or the ACC is, in effect, changing the CCRs to suit a single homeowner. They do not have the power to do that.

So, if they do go ahead and grant an exception, what should be done about it? Nothing? I don’t think so. I have said that I believe that the ACC could rescind their approval (or the board could overturn it), and I believe they have the authority and justification to do that. As we have seen, there are others who disagree with this. Yes, it is a mean, low-down thing to do, and I would be extremely upset if I were the homeowner that it happened to. But, let’s leave this issue aside for now, and explore a little further.

Suppose we DO decide that the only, or the right, or the best thing to do is to let the decision stand. Have we opened up a potential can of worms in that at some future time another homeowner may want a similar exception and use this example as justification that he or she is entitled that it be granted? Not necessarily.

I think that, at the very least, the board should pass a resolution censuring the ACC for having violated the CCRs in approving an exception. The resolution should further state that future violations of this nature will not be tolerated and that sterner measures could be taken. This should be followed up with a letter to the chairperson of the ACC, directed by the board and signed by the president, informing the ACC of the censure action, the nature of the violation and a copy of the relevant provision of the CCRs that has been violated. This places it on record, in the minutes, that there has been a violation and that other homeowners should not expect to be granted a similar exception in the future. This may help to ward off any claim of “well, they were allowed to do it” by a homeowner, since it has been established and acknowledged that this was clearly an error and that it will not be permitted to happen again.

In the extreme, or if a similar violation happens again, the board could vote to demand the resignation of the ACC members. If the members of the ACC are appointed by the board, the board could vote to remove and replace them. If they are appointed by the president, the board could pass a resolution demanding that the president remove them and appoint replacements. (However, to be practical, if your HOA has trouble getting volunteers to serve on the ACC, you may want make sure you have replacements who are willing to serve first.)

So, while we may not exactly agree on what should be done, I believe that to simply throw up your hands or shrug your shoulders and say, “oh, well,” would be a mistake. I think that the board must take decisive action and do SOMETHING immediately, and by so doing, they will strengthen their position to say “no” the next time
IreneC (North Carolina)
Posts: 111
Posted:
And.... if they wish too.. the board can ammend, change or reedit the rules. It depends on how much this is going to cause friction? issues and concerns flying
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
You may have hit on the real problems here Bruce. I think that I'm reluctant to make too much of it because if I do, I'll probably lose the ACC people that I do have and I won't be able to get anybody to replace them. I've been on the Board for three years (since turnover from the developer) and one of my goals has been to get homeowner committees established. Unfortunately when the two making the complaint were on the Board, they blocked my attempts to get homeowner committees going, claiming that the Board is responsible for everything. But then they didn't run in the last election because they said that being on the Board was too much work. To be fair, I didn't run either, but when one of the new members had to resign, I was asked to come back.

Frankly, this whole blow-up couldn't have come at a worse time for me. I'm also involved with some other organizations that are having events right now. Between working on those events and my regular job, I haven't been able to put the time into this that it needs. On the other hand, I think the timeline has been unreasonably accelerated by those two. The first message that brought it to our attention was sent last Friday, and on Monday they started demanding to review all ACC requests since the first of the year. They wanted the requests to be delivered to them before the Board meeting on Wednesday, and were royally P.O.d when they weren't ready. I told them that they were free to go in to the M.C. office and review them.

I think the idea of the letter to the owner may be the way to go. Inform them that the shed in not in compliance and let them know what would be needed to bring it into compliance (in this case, just add shingles to the roof). Since they did get approval (even though it was incorrect), we can't really force them to bring it into compliance, but we can tell them that if any changes are done in the future that it must be brought into compliance at that time. In addition, if they sell the property, the shed must go with them.
JohnO6 (Georgia)
Posts: 424
Posted:
You may want to carefully scrutinize your covenants for a variances clause that would/could put this discussion to bed. Our covenants state:

"the Board of Directors or its designee shall be authorized to grant individual variances from any of the provisions of this Declaration, By-laws, and any Rule, Regulation or Use Restriction promulgated pursuant thereto if it determines that the waiver of application or enforcement of the provision in a particular case would not be inconsistent with the overall scheme of development of the community"

This provision essentially grants broad powers for the Board or, if the Board agrees, assigned committees to make individual exceptions.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Dwight, unfortunately such things happen with volunteer help and even sometimes with professional guidance. I would handle this by:
1) thank the complaintants for bringing this matter to the attention of the Board;
2) advise them that the ACC approved the request and therefore no further action will be taken;
3) have the Board and ACC members review all ACC policies and procedures to prevent similar occurances in the future.

Variances are normally allowed by the CC&Rs when justified.
Plus the Board needs to use good business judgement in making their decisions; for this case no action is the best decision IMO.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
John,

Except that would not fly in Connecticut. The state's Common Interest Ownership Act (or law governing HOAs) specifically prohibits the board from making any changes or deviating from the Declaration (or CCRs) and invests that authority strictly with the homeowners. The reasoning for this is that when the HOA is first formed, the HOA, the board, and any committees are under the control of the developer. Such a clause would permit the developer to run amok with the CCRs and do anything he or she chooses at any time.

Furthermore, such broad powers of interpretation, in my opinion, reduce the CCRs to a mere set of guidelines and not deed restrictions.

Can you imagine what would happen to our country if our Constitution contained such a clause allowing Congress to grant waivers and make exceptions? I shudder to think of it.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Bruce,
What can the Board do once the homeowner has proper approval and the shed is in place?

The options I envision are:
1) Request the owner change the shed to comply with the CC&R restrictions;
and if they say no (odds are near 100% IMO)

2) Ask permission for the HOA to replace with a compliant shed with the cost paid by the HOA;
and if they say no

3) Take the case to arbitration;
and if they say no

4) Take the case to court (their insurance company may not agree).
and what are the chances of the HOA losing in court? High probability IMO; and in CO probably pay all legal expenses for both parties.

5) The Board is responsible for making sound business decisions. If this case lost at court, what if a homeowner sued those Board members who made the poor decision? If the homeowner prevailed at court those Board members approving going to court may be held liable to pay all legal costs if their D&O insurance did not cover them. Would you take the risk of the potential of having to paying out of your own pocket?

So, as a Board member what action would you recommend? I stand by my answer to do nothing.

With regard to variances, they are allowed in many CC&Rs. With regard to our government, and particularly our courts, I shudder at some of the exceptions they have made. But to discuss this would take years.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
If a Board/ACC can rescind an approval then that puts the integrity of the whole process into question. What homeowner in their right mind would subject themselves to a process that can be reversed at any point in the future. imo there is no doubt the courts would be very busy and HOA would be incurring huge legal bills if they attempted such a ludicrous action. This wasn't about a waiver or intentionally ignoring the CCR's, rather it was something (no shingles) that was missed in the ACC review. It isn't even the HO problem if the ACC decided to ignor the CCR's...if they give approval then the HO has fulfilled all obligations required and can go ahead.
BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Roger,

I do not agree that the board should do nothing. If you will read my later post, in it I said:

"I think that, at the very least, the board should pass a resolution censuring the ACC for having violated the CCRs in approving an exception. The resolution should further state that future violations of this nature will not be tolerated and that sterner measures could be taken. This should be followed up with a letter to the chairperson of the ACC, directed by the board and signed by the president, informing the ACC of the censure action, the nature of the violation and a copy of the relevant provision of the CCRs that has been violated. This places it on record, in the minutes, that there has been a violation and that other homeowners should not expect to be granted a similar exception in the future. This may help to ward off any claim of “well, they were allowed to do it” by a homeowner, since it has been established and acknowledged that this was clearly an error and that it will not be permitted to happen again."

Who is going to sue over doing that?
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Bruce:

I have to disagree with your viewpoint on this. Most homeowners look to the ACC or the board to make decisions and interpret rules for them. The homeowners followed procedure and their request was approved. They did nothing wrong, but yet you want them at their expense to correct what amounts to an HOA error. I don't see how any court would side with the HOA in this situation...I really don't.

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BruceF1 on 05/23/2008 8:00 AM
John,
Can you imagine what would happen to our country if our Constitution contained such a clause allowing Congress to grant waivers and make exceptions? I shudder to think of it.

I would imagine it to be a world where Congress exempted themselves from complying with the laws they write for all other people, where you had to have the permission of the "board" in order to sue the board or redress a grievance, and where the president of the board could seize people and property without a warrant, by use of his own "security force", despite any laws to the contrary, and hold them indefinately without charges of any kind, or access to any legal aid or representation, and try them in a mock court where they had none of the rights granted to others by the rules of law that the board tossed out. I would imagine it the very same world where this board voted on issues and laws without bothering to read them.

I would say it is a world very much like we live in today.
DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798
Posted:
Brian, maybe the difference is that under the one system the defendent (HO) has recourse to the courts (where the laws can't be rewritten by the authority being challenged - HOA) whereas under the other system even with recourse to the courts the defendent (Government) but can rewrite the laws to suit themselves?
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Brian,

You said: "I would imagine it the very same world where this board voted on issues and laws without bothering to read them." Not only boards do this, our very own legislators do too. AZ had one of it's biggest fiascos when legislators voted for the alternative fuel bill several years ago. This legislation was sneaked thru by a strike-everything amendment and many of the legislators who voted in favor didn't even bother to read the new bill!! A strike-everything amendment strikes everything written in the original bill and replaces it with new language, oftentimes of a totally different subject than the original bill. This tactic is often used at the end of the session when the legislators are more concerned with shutting down and will oftentimes vote for anything just to be done with it.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaryA1 on 05/26/2008 7:14 AM
Brian,

You said: "I would imagine it the very same world where this board voted on issues and laws without bothering to read them." Not only boards do this, our very own legislators do too. AZ had one of it's biggest fiascos when legislators voted for the alternative fuel bill several years ago. This legislation was sneaked thru by a strike-everything amendment and many of the legislators who voted in favor didn't even bother to read the new bill!! A strike-everything amendment strikes everything written in the original bill and replaces it with new language, oftentimes of a totally different subject than the original bill. This tactic is often used at the end of the session when the legislators are more concerned with shutting down and will oftentimes vote for anything just to be done with it.


Yes, I've seen that, too. An amendment that strikes everything after the enacting clause and replaces it with totally new language; sometimes having nothing at all to do with the title of the bill. I remember the first time I saw that. I said, what?

Cute trick.

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