How do you know a bad Board member is actually bad?

Started by GlenL • 24 replies • 3777 views

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GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

We've always had posts on how to get rid of a bad Board member but lately some of the examples of bad behavior have quite frankly not seemed all that bad to me. So it got me thinking just how do you know they're really bad?

If they don't do things like you think they ought to be done does that make them bad? Given that most CC&R's and even some of the laws are like the bible; look hard enough and you can justify any action. Until it's decided in a court of law, what makes one side right and the other wrong?

Now I know there are some Board members out there that make Joseph Stalin & Pol Pot look like pussycats compared to how they run an HOA but are they necessarily bad? Some of the best bosses I've ever worked for had much the same management style but you always knew where you stood with them.

If there is a "clique" that always votes together and you can't get anything you think needs to be done passed. Does that make them bad or are you the one out of touch?

If the MC doesn't do what you want done without an OK from the president, does that mean that they're in cahoots? Or if things don't get done when you think they should; does that make them bad?

If the answer you get when you ask why we do something a specific way is: "That's the way we've always done it." Does that mean it's not a valid policy or procedure? What if the BOD got it right from day one?

Is it homeowner apathy that turns a good BOD member bad? Does it come from feeling that no one cares what I do as long as I keep the assessments low?

And please I'm not trying to make fun of anyone who has posted something like this here. I am genuinely curious and am interested in everyone's responses. Even the ones I think are bad.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

(Even the ones I think are bad.) Sorry the smiley face didn't post.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MaryN (Virginia)
Posts: 125

Posted:

Consider:
5 members on the BOD..3 meet on the road..have a meeting..send out a letter to all the property owners..the Pres. and the Director receive the letter and ask the other 3 "what's this?"..no meeting..response "we make up the majority and we voted on the road..we have the power to do what we did" We lost the Pres and Director..the remaining 3 appointed a new Director and VP..in over a one year period the new BOD held several board meetings..only 1 was announced..held several closed sessions which were supposed to be announced..were not. There is NO Budget..it took a year to see the financial books..pieces of paper..copied numbers..and a 1 hour time limit and no copies permitted. VA Property Owners Act is violated in each of the above. Problem..there is no penalty..no consequence for the BOD. When we point out they have violated the law..they laugh..take us to court! just sue us! We are in the process of doing just that..not for the above problems..but for some other really bizarre things that they have done which would take too much time to list here..our complaint is a small book.
MaryN

IreneC (North Carolina)
Posts: 111

Posted:

Yes... Mary.. althought your board may not admit it, if things were done in this fashion... then yes, it is against the law. No posted agenda? Meeting in the streets? Totally against the Davis Sterling act.

One of my fellow board members recieved hate email from another. It was so bad that legal action and an announcement to the entire board had to be made about the inapporpriate emails and thier recourse. One board member took it upon himself to ( really he did ) to over see a major project on sight in the garage . He is unemployed, at home 24/7 and figured he would be the one for this. It was a nightmare for us a group. One homeowner who leaves her car in the garage monday-friday came home to a new dent on the door of her car. She notified MC and had an estimate done. IT was 1 month later after some internal scuttle with the homeowner did the member who did the oversight say.. " that was preexisting!". Our board didn't know what to say. This was not disclosed until 30days later... unfornately for us, the lady took a time dated photo showing the date of damage and alsoyou can clearly see where the work was done.. right next to her car door. The lady threatned to sue us.. and guess what we a a board opted to just pay the bill... the lady was right, our insurance adjuster said our member was not telling a believable story in regards to the dent, ,proximity of area area and that you can see where the object fell off the ceiling of the garage..

NOT all board members are like this, but yes.. this one is bad.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Remember Mary,
There is power in numbers. The sad news is that owner apathy is probably more relevant in your case as it sounds to me. Your Board is not following the laws of your State and unless someone gathers enough support to oust them from their positions, the abuse of power will continue. See if you can rally the troops and get them removed and replaced with a Board that works for all of your membership. p.s. Anyone who ever says to me "just sue me" usually will pay with my wrath. I work within the system and get the job done (never with a sue because only the lawyers benefit) As I said, there is power in numbers.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

What defines a "bad" board member? To answer that question one would need an objective definition of what "bad" means relative to a board member. All too often the definition we try to apply is subjective.

Since an HOA is supposed to be a democratic organization and the board should operate as a democracy, then I believe that is the starting point.

Perhaps I would include the following criteria for starters:

A bad board member is one who:

1. Refuses to operate within democratic principles and to yield to the will of the majority,

2. Refuses to operate within the dictates of the governing documents or the law,

3. Is unable or unwilling to operate objectively and impartially,

4. Places personal interests above the interests of the community,

5. Behaves as a "benevolent dictator," believing that he or she knows what's best for the community better than they do,

and similar criteria.

Anyway, I think those are some of the criteria I would use to judge.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Well...I think we could beat this one to death and come up with a myriad of things to define. To me it all comes down to two things:

1) Is everything they are doing legal?

2) Is the vast majority of residents happy with their performance?

If the answer to #1 is no then obviously they are not good. If the answer to #2 is no then it requires some searching as to why the members feel this way.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Mary,

When someone violates the law, you can sue, but you can also call the police!

Now, I am not saying that you actually call the police, but by this statement I am suggesting that you contact the attorney general's office. The AG is most likely powerless to enforce anything that is in your governing documents, and may not be able to do anything about violations of the law either, since the law may state that violations are civil matters and not criminal ones. But, a sufficient number of such complaints may eventually command the attention of your state legislature who may look at toughening the laws and provide homeowners with more clout.

While I am not in favor of severely restricting HOAs to the extent that their hands become tied, I am in favor of legislation that controls renegade boards whose members believe that being a board member is a position of power over others.

As an example of how such complaints can have an effect, just look at the recent law that was passed in Florida, Here, in Connecticut, a similar bill came close to passage, but died in committee only at the last minute. However, the AG, in testimony, had strongly urged it's passage, based on the complaints continually received by his office. Even the local chapter of the CAI was in favor of it. So, you see, such complaints are noticed. The bill may not be dead. There's always next year.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Glen, Brad and Bruce -- you all bring up some good points and much food for thought. I've known of a number of cases where a group of h/o's declared the board was operating outside the law, doing this and that and were successful in getting them all recalled. Guess what happened? Once the new board was in place, made up of all the "good" people; they discovered the old board wasn't doing anything wrong, illegal or otherwise. Bottom line: it's all in the "eyes of the beholder". Lack of communication is one thing that oftentimes destroys a board. Not letting the members know what is going on most often portrays the image of "they must doing something wrong". The members lack of knowing exactly what the gov docs allow or disallow and not being saavy to state law is oftentimes another reason for believing the board isn't operating as they should. I've been on a number of HOA messageboards and have heard all the stories. I will agree there are a lot of errant boards out there but there are also alot of PIA homeowners tacking that label onto board members doing a good job. It's up to every member of an HOA to do their homework and decide for themselves whether or not their board members are doing a good job.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Excellent, excellent points, Mary.

Bruce's list is somewhat okay, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the number 1 on his list:

" 1. Refuses to operate within democratic principles and to yield to the will of the majority,:

Do you mean the will of the majority of the neighborhood, informed or uninformed?

The will of the majority of the board, informed or uninformed?

There are many times a board member might be "outside" the will or desire of "the majority," simply because he or she might be right and "the majority" might be wrong. Or, even lest subjectively, he or she might be better informed and "the majority" less or totally uninformed.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

But, Michele, yielding to the will of the majority, whether it be the majority of the board or the majority of the members, will rack up a lot of brownie points!

But, seriously speaking, this is what some board members are interested in doing. Don't offend anyone; be Mr. Nice Guy! Don't know about you, but people like that make we want to call Ralph! No offense to any Ralph's out there! LOL

AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960

Posted:

Bad Board Member:

1. Thinks they are a Board of ONE

2. Ignore's other Board members request to approve items as a BOARD

3. Instructs Manager/Management Company to ONLY take direction from them.

4. Forgets that the membership elected ALL the other board members.

5. Steals association money---no vote of board on expendiatures.

6. ANYTHING they do in secrecy---with no discussion or approval of other board members.

7. Thinks they were "elected" to be the dictator/ruler/president of the entire association.

8. Is ignorant of Association Documents and State Statutes.

9. Chastizes anyone who questions them.

"Bad Board Members" are a Board of ONE> THEIR way or NO way. Anyone who is a bad board member is "poison" to any association. The list could go on and on. They got their position by "acting" as friends to the association members; then are hot-heads and ALWAYS have their own agenda to get things done THEIR way as quickly and irresponsibly as possible...and they don't care who they step on; or how they mismanage funds to get their way.

Can you tell we've had one of "those" at my place?

Thank goodness, the people on this site held my hand and walked me through a year of pure hell with ours....and now we're doing thing right!

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AnnaD2 on 05/17/2008 3:28 PM
Bad Board Member:

8. Is ignorant of Association Documents and State Statutes.

I think number 8 is the key to it all.

If the board member, especially if the board member is the president, is ignorant of the governing documents, and WILLFULLY ignorant at that, I think all the other definitions will flow from that.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Michele,

It doesn't matter, in my view, whether they are more informed or less informed. The majority is the majority, whether it's the board members or the unit owners. When it comes to voting and decisions, the majority rules and each person has to abide by it. That's what democracy is. That doesn't mean that an individual is not entitled to a dissenting opinion. If the majority of the board votes to take some action, each board member is bound to abide by it, even if he or she disagrees with it.

I did not, however, mean, by yielding to the will of the majority, to attempt to be a "nice guy" or to attempt to placate a majority of the membership. By "refusing to yield to the will of the majority" I was referring to an individual who doesn't abide by the decisions that the membership or the board has made (ie, as in voting). We've all seen examples of this type of individual in this forum; some board member (even some presidents) who goes and does his or her own thing because he or she believes the board's decision was wrong and disagrees with it. This type of individual also believes, in his or her own mind, that the majority is not as well informed, and that he or she knows better, and may wind up operating like the person in my number 5.

On the other hand, a good board member, who is better informed, attempts to educate those who are not as well informed. Not always an easy task. And, when a decision (vote) is made that such an individual knows is wrong and happens because the majority is not as well informed, that individual, although frustrated, will still abide by it.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By IreneC on 05/17/2008 8:04 AM
Yes... Mary.. althought your board may not admit it, if things were done in this fashion... then yes, it is against the law. No posted agenda? Meeting in the streets? Totally against the Davis Sterling act.

Irene DS only applies to California although other states may have similar statutes.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

It may seem obvious, but I also think it comes down to leading by example. If I don't keep the exterior of my house in order, get outdoor home improvement pre-approved by the board (if appropriate) and keep current with my own assessment fees, how on earth can I expect anyone else to do the same?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 05/17/2008 4:12 PM

I did not, however, mean, by yielding to the will of the majority, to attempt to be a "nice guy" or to attempt to placate a majority of the membership. By "refusing to yield to the will of the majority" I was referring to an individual who doesn't abide by the decisions that the membership or the board has made (ie, as in voting).

Gotcha. Because I do think it's huge difference to "yield" to majority "opinion" and "yield" to majority "vote."

In other words, yielding to the "opinion" (of a group that may or may not necessarily be properly informed, and I think that distinction IS important), and as a result basing MY vote on that "majority opinion," to me is considerably different than putting my own personal "opinion" aside once a vote has been made and therefore "yielding" to the outcome of the vote.

Yielding to opinion, then, comes before the voting action (and thereby voting a certain way JUST because the "majority" is voting that way), and Yielding to the Vote comes AFTER the vote by providing proper execution of the item voted on.

I have no problem voting my conscience on an HOA issue, even if that vote is not in the majority. It becomes a part of the record and my position, and convictions, remain intact.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleD on 05/17/2008 6:01 PM
I have no problem voting my conscience on an HOA issue, even if that vote is not in the majority. It becomes a part of the record and my position, and convictions, remain intact.

And that's as it should be.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 05/17/2008 6:07 PM

And that's as it should be.

Agreed! Having the courage of one's convictions is a most commendable attribute. I've always tried to stick to my point of view even when met with adversity. It doesn't always earn you brownie points, but that doesn't bother me.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BruceF1 on 05/17/2008 4:12 PM
Michele,
Snip

On the other hand, a good board member, who is better informed, attempts to educate those who are not as well informed. Not always an easy task. And, when a decision (vote) is made that such an individual knows is wrong and happens because the majority is not as well informed, that individual, although frustrated, will still abide by it.

Been there, done that! And, NO, it isn't always an easy task, in fact, most often almost an impossible task. I say this in reference to HOA board members. Many of whom I've met, and served with, just don't have the desire to learn. They're content to just sit in the seat. Regarding your last sentence: is there any other choice but to abide by the decisions of the majority? I've never thought it was productive to bad mouth my fellow board members for voting against my position. The only thing one can do is try harder the next time. IMO, this is not the same as voting against your convictions because you don't want to be the only one voting differently. I've never been one to "go with the flow"! Some of that has to do with the fact that, until I'm proven wrong, I will stick to my position. I'm not afraid to admit to being wrong, but you have to prove it to me first! Don't know if that's a good or bad trait, but it's mine.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

I can tell you who I think IS NOT a bad board member. The people who regularly read and post in this forum.

The board members who regularly read and post in this forum are interested in taking the extra time above and beyond what it takes to just perform their activities in their community. They're interested in helping others, exchanging ideas, and learning from the problems encountered by others and their successes and failures. All of this, and more, makes them better able to serve their community.

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

AMEN Bruce......I read this forum every day, several times a day...I have gained so much knowledge from those who know so much more than myself....I also read Realty Times at least twice a week looking for information....The CC&R's/SS-720, I have read dozens of times...When I want to express a fact to the President about a certain issue, I send the reference w/my e-mail...Her reply to me is, " The CC&R's and SS are only used as guide lines"...This is knowledgable she is.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Sidney,

And, each time you read the statutes, the CCRs, bylaws, etc., don't you see something you didn't see before? You understand them better each time.

As for your president, guidelines? Oh, the US Constitution, I suppose that's a "guidline". And our statutes, those are just guidelines too. So, it's OK to run a red light.....as long as nobody is looking; that law is only a guidline. Boy, is your president missing the boat! Those are legal documents, just as binding as statutes. Unfortunately, not following them doesn't result in criminal penalties.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SidneyP on 05/18/2008 8:23 AM
AMEN Bruce......I read this forum every day, several times a day...I have gained so much knowledge from those who know so much more than myself....I also read Realty Times at least twice a week looking for information....The CC&R's/SS-720, I have read dozens of times...When I want to express a fact to the President about a certain issue, I send the reference w/my e-mail...Her reply to me is, " The CC&R's and SS are only used as guide lines"...This is knowledgable she is.

Sidney,

I can't tell you how many times I've been told a board member has said that -- "the CCRs and state laws are only guidelines". Is there a special school for these people somewhere??? LOL

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryA1 on 05/18/2008 1:19 PM

Sidney,

I can't tell you how many times I've been told a board member has said that -- "the CCRs and state laws are only guidelines". Is there a special school for these people somewhere??? LOL

Yes there is, and a special short bus takes them to it every day, until they graduate and become board members.

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