TAMPERING OF DOCUMENT

Started by LindaB5 • 27 replies • 1428 views

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LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

Would love your input. Our Property Mgmt. Co. took the Division of Corp. Document that was originally filed and signed by me in Oct. 2007...... altered the document, made changes to the positon of the officers, etc. and submitted it to Tallahassee as an original document, changing the date to reflect Jan. 2008, without my consent or knowledge of said being done. I only found out when it was sent back because payment was not enclosed. The Property Mgmt. Co. denies any wrong doing and the other board members would never comment on this issue. I feel it is not only fraud but bordering on forgery and possibly counterfeiting. I am wondering where I stand on this issue and whether or not the other board members are negligent in not pursing this matter.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LindaB5 on 04/20/2008 8:41 AM
Would love your input. Our Property Mgmt. Co. took the Division of Corp. Document that was originally filed and signed by me in Oct. 2007...... altered the document, made changes to the positon of the officers, etc. and submitted it to Tallahassee as an original document, changing the date to reflect Jan. 2008, without my consent or knowledge of said being done. I only found out when it was sent back because payment was not enclosed. The Property Mgmt. Co. denies any wrong doing and the other board members would never comment on this issue. I feel it is not only fraud but bordering on forgery and possibly counterfeiting. I am wondering where I stand on this issue and whether or not the other board members are negligent in not pursing this matter.

Do you have a copy of the original document that was signed? If not you are going to have a hard time with anything...if you do confront the MC and ask what the intentions were...I would serious consider turning them in to whoever in the state supervises them, as they say where there is smoke there is fire.

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

I have a copy of the report that was filed in Oct. 2007 which reflected the old Registered Agent.......She tried to submit this old form as the current one for 2008 which still shows some of the old Officers and Directors, crossed out the date of the form and changed it to the current year. My signature is on this form and changed the date to Jan. 2008. Also she crossed out the word Amended Form and made it Annual Form.

When you go on the website it shows entirely different info which is more up to date then what she sent in. Everything contradicts itself......

The Property Mgmt.'s explanation is that she was saving us extra work by sending this form in.......Claims she never changed anything, which is apparent that she did. This application has a filing date of May 2008 so we were not pressed for time......

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Linda,

Are you still on the board? If so, what position? It really appears to me the prop mgr was only filing the current year report using last years form and changed applicable information. What would be her motive for doing anything other than that? Why do you think there was something sinister in what she did?

SueW1 (Texas)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Whether or not filing this was deliberate, why leave yourself open for trouble.

In a court of law, think about it.....

It's the same as if nothing was never filed. So, a falsified document cannot be enforced.

Which makes me wonder, if this is allowed to go on without addressing this immediately, what next!!!

Boards must never let each other do something they would not like the homeowner doing.

Keep your integrity by upholding it.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

Here's a thought: she forgot to send the Annual Report in Oct.07, and changed the date to Jan. 2008.

KarenS11 (Florida)
Posts: 148

Posted:

I think it should be reported. Our former PM made a mistake on our annual report and electronically signed my name to it. I brought it to their attention and the CAM and the district manager insisted that we must pay for the amended (corrected) filing! When I told them that they needed to get an opinion from their corporate office in Longwood, as we would not pay for their mistake, they finally saw the light.

It sounds as though your PM was lazy and now doesn't want to pay to correct their mistake.

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

Yes I am still on the board.....When the first report was filed it was an amended report for the year 2007.... Reason for this is that we took over our village from the builder..... At that time I was the President......The form that was submitted indicated that I was the President and still showed the old officers, directors, etc....
If you go on the website for the Divison of Corporations it showed the updated info...... In Jan. 2008 the mgmt. co. istead of printing out a new form with the updated info, she took the old form, crossed out the year and changed it to 2008 and crossed out the word "amended form" and changed it to annual report.... This old form once again had the names of the previous officers...... Since then my position changed from President to VP and she whited out the form, made the changes and submitted it as an Original with my signature on it indicating that I signed it in Jan. 2008 when I originally signed it in 2007.......
Altering or tampering with an existing document is forgery.... If anything she is guilty of being lazy and when I approached her regarding this document, she insisted that she made no changes...Apparently this is false......

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

And the part that I love is that I am signing this and swearing that everything is on the up and up.........

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

Good thought but she did submit the report in 2007.......I have seen it on their website plus I signed the check in 2007 for the Division of Corps.......

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

Karen........You pegged her correctly.......She is lazy but she also twists around the truth and has been caught in many inconsistencies......

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Linda,

OK so we really know what happened and why! My question is: how important is this report? In AZ the annual report is just a formality. The Corp Comm doesn't even look at them. They only require it to collect the $10 annual fee. If this is the case in FL why make such a big deal about it? But, even if the report isn't a big deal the underhanded nature of this prop mgr is. So, just demand the Prop. Mgmt Co assign a new prop mgr or else find another company to contract with. IMO, that is the best solution to this problem -- and the least costly.

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

Mary said..."even if the report isn't a big deal"

The "Big Deal" to Linda is that the offical file was sent in with her signsture....this is a "Big Deal"

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Sidney,
I agree with you wholeheartidly,
I am guessing that what the Document was is the change to the Articles of Inc, removing the Developer as the listed agent to the Homeowners agent. Also if this is the Aaual report, these are important papers for the State and I would be very unhappy with the unprofessional way that she handled it. She supposidly has a license to understand her useage of her responsibilities to the HOA and the State.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Sydney & Donna,

I agree it is a big deal if this is an important report. However, I explained how unimportant the AZ annual report is and said if that was the case with FL, then it wouldn't be worth the effort and expense to do anything about it. But, the PM should definitely be let go.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Mary,
It really depends on which document this actually was as for it's importance. But NO P.M. of ours would keep her job for one second if they signed their own name on anything that was not for her to sign. None.

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

MaryA1----the importance of the doc has no play in this at all...it makes no difference how important or not important a file may be...The only thing that is wrong, is that it is my signature that was on that paper..I am the only one who can legally use my signature on any paper/doc/contract.

I even got very upset when the Board President sent an e-mail to the MC complaining about the landscaper and said all Board members agreed w/her...
#1 I was never ask or told about this complaint until after the fact
#2 I didn't agree w/her..I just happen to be there that day and even walked the grounds after he finished. The grounds looked good to me. I fould one small area that was near a runoff into the lake that had not be weed eated....I do know that this landscaper had been told two different things the week before...He was told by the President that he didn't cut the grass low enough and then a HO told the landscaper he was cutting to low and chewed him out....now go figure, the poor guy didn't know what to do.

Don't include me in a complaint that I know nothing about and don't use my signature for any reason. My signature is for my use only and so are my decisions.

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

I just want to thank each one of you for posting your thoughts......It has really helped me put things in it's proper prospective..... I have many options to consider.........All in all, it still boils down to the fact that the PM had no right to submit an outdated form without my knowledge or consent and to top it off, having my signature on it.....First and foremost I have to protect my you know what since apparently no one else on the board seems to care........Remind me why I am doing this????

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

Why not ask Tallahassee if it is appropriate. If they say no, then I'm sure they will be following up with the filing PM. If they say it if fine, you've got your answer. I suspect it is not fine.

AnnJ1 (Florida)
Posts: 122

Posted:

LindaB5,
To confirm your thoughts on this matter.... Florida allows "on-line" filing of annual corporate reports. Since it is obvious that online filing (other than faxing) precludes a written "signature" per se, please read the info below. The following is a portion of the instructions for filing online. In particular, please read the last line.

Ann
..........................................

"Payment options include: credit card (Master Card, Visa, Discover, or American Express), or your pre-established Sunbiz E-file Account.

For the purpose of filing documents online, the typed name of the individual "signing" the document is sufficient under s.15.16, Florida Statutes. Electronic signatures have the same legal effect as original signatures. Typing in someone's name/signature without their permission constitutes forgery."

Here's the link:
https://efile.sunbiz.org/ubrintro.html

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

I don't want to sound dismissive about your concerns, but THIS particular form you are talking about is a technicality that gets its importance from just being filed and the $10 check.

Is the MC the new registered agent?

It sounds like you have let her know how you feel about forms going out that contain your signature. I am sure you were heard.

In the meantime, put a letter of concern into the file of the MC about this - then let it go. Get on to governing your nice association.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it just because the significance of it appears to be low. Altering any signed document without the signator's permission and initials is forgery on any level. If you walk out of a store with a quarter pack of gum or $10,000 diamond ring without paying it is still shoplifting and you are still subject to arrest.

It shouldn't matter what significance it has, and it should tell you a lot about the character of your MC that they would do something like this. Perhaps it isn't at the level of terminating them, but I don't think sitting by and letting it go is the correct action. Maybe it is because I deal with contracts all the time at work, but I would never think of altering something without their knowledge and initials on it, it isn't right or ethical or even legal.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Brad,

I understand where you're coming from. But I also tend to agree with Susan and so much as said the same thing myself. However I also suggested asking the mgmt co to assign a new prop mgr as this one is short on scruples. If she would do this when filing a report to the state who knows what else she might do. If the prop. mgmt co. doesn't comply then I would suggest finding a new one.

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Mary:

I agree with what you said, I don't think you need the FBI there, but I also don't think it should be swept under the rug. I agree it appears it was one person who decided to take a shortcut and that person should be replaced, not necessarily the MC at this point.

LindaB5
Posts: 23

Posted:

I want to thank each one of you for replying and I have digested all of your comments...... I also spoke to a friend who is a Criminal Attorney and his advice was to contact Tallahassee Div. of Corps and explain to them what took place......Things get even more complicated.....I wish I could fire the PM.......The MC is a Mom and Pop operation that the other board members approved and because the board members don't do anything, they cannot find fault with her....So the only people working for the property mgmt. company are husband and wife......That is the team....No one else...... As long as the other Board Members don't have to get their hands dirty and exert themselves they are fine........

I have a few other people that I am consulting with but it looks like I will be filing a complaint.......

Thanks again!!!!!!!!

KarenS11 (Florida)
Posts: 148

Posted:

Linda-

I'd love to hear how it goes. I am considering filing a similar complaint, but deciding on whether or not to go through the Division of Corporations or to file it and some other issues with DBPR.

I think that it IS a big deal and from now until forever, anyone looking at the annual report with my electronic signature will wonder what kind of moron submitted an annual report that ws so screwed up.

KarenS11 (Florida)
Posts: 148

Posted:

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043

Posted:

Karen,

Perhaps in FL someone will be looking closely at it. Here in AZ, it doesn't matter what you file. The Corp. Commission is not a "policing" agency is what I was told when I called to inform them my former assn was not filing the report nor changing the statutory agent who had moved and was no longer a member (my husband!). They told me I could file the report to change the statutory agent and pay the filing fee! Like I said in an earlier post, they only care about collecting the filing fee.

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