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MystifieD (Texas)
Posts: 11
Posted:
QUESTION: Is it within the power of the Board of Directors to resolve that proxy votes cast for removal of board members - MUST be cast by a qualified member of the POA.

In a TEXAS NON-PROFIT Corporation Property Owners Assocation ----

a "special meeting of members" was called by a petition signed by 10% of the membership for the purpose of removing FOUR majority board members.

On the evening of "record date", a special meeting of the Board of Directors was convened on proper notice for the purpose of opening all proxies and checking them against the list of members qualified to vote. Several proxies were signed by members who were NOT paid up on their assessments and were accordingly disqualified.

HOWEVER, some proxies were signed by qualified, paid up members, but the proxy was given to a person who is NOT themselves a qualified member of the POA (ie: they did NOT own property in the subdivision on "record date", or are NOT paid up on their dues and qualified voting members, or were NOT qualified officers of corporate property owners as of the published "record date" for the special meeting of members). In other words, the member signing the proxy was a valid voting member on record date, but he had given HIS proxy vote to a person who was NOT a member of the POA at all, or who was NOT in good standing on record date and therefore NOT qualified to vote at all.

The board of directors considered and acted upon a resolution concerning the counting of these proxy votes. It was resolved that a proxy vote for the removal of directors must be cast by, and may be cast only by, a person who is otherwise qualified to vote in an election for directors.

This dicision results in a different outcome of the recall election. Specifically whether one director (The President) is removed from the board or not, and therefore is being seriously challanged by several disgruntled members.

Texas Law seems to be silent on the issue. Proxies are valid under applicable Texas Law, but it doesn't say a proxy must be a member, or may not be a member. Further, the law merely says - if the ByLaws doesn't address removal of board members, the a board member may be removed by the same process by which he can be elected - (by majority vote).

The board is of the opinion that members would NOT like board members being elected by persons who do not own property in the subdivision, or by persons who are not paid up members. Therefore, proxies for voting on removal of board members must be cast only by valid members.

What say you --- anyone?
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Do your HOA's governing documents allow for non-members of the association to vote in any manner at all?

If not, then it would be foolish for a valid member to assign a proxy vote to someone who is not qualified to vote, therefore, not qualified to "proxy" their vote?

Or am I missing something?

MystifieD (Texas)
Posts: 11
Posted:
MichaelD

NO. The ByLaws define a member with good specificity, a property owner in fee simple or by contract to acquire fee simple title. It further says each member shall have ONE vote for each director. Elsewhere the governing docs state that a members voting rights are suspended if dues are not paid by a certain date, and further if late fees are not paid by a certain date.

I, along with the majority of other board members feel that a person not meeting the above criteria CANNOT vote a proxy even if given by a person who DOES meet the above criteria.

But as you would expect, the losers at the "recall vote" are challanging this decision. They have based some of their argument on dictionary definition (for corporate proxies) stating that "Generally, a proxy need not be a shareholder". I do not know, but think the Board has the power to make binding determinations on such matters so long as it does not controvert governing law - which seems to be silent on the matter.

Your views are appreciated.
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Well, in our case, our documents give us that ability:

"Section 7. Board's Determination Binding. In the event of any dispute or disagreement between any owners relating to the property subject to this Declaration, or any questions of interpretation or application of the provisions of this Declaration or the Bylaws, the determination thereof by the Board shall be final and binding on each and all such owners."

However, since I'm not well-versed in the hair-splitting that can be involved in such a controversial vote, some of the other members of this site with greater expertise in the "proxy" area might be of better assistance.

But, again, it would seem logical that the proxy would be provided to a member who is qualified to vote.

I cannot imagine that a proxy could be carried into a meeting and acted upon by someone not otherwise eligible to participate in or vote in said meeting.

I'll be reading this thread with great interest.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
I would say it depends on the power given to the proxy: Is it giving the power to the proxy carrier to actually cast a VOTE or just to carry the Member's ballot to the meeting?

I think that anyone, including a non-member - can carry a Member's proxy ballot to a meeting and present it to the secretary.

If your recall vote was done by ballot, then you must honor those ballots, even if it was carried into the room by a member not in good standing.

MystifieD (Texas)
Posts: 11
Posted:
SusanW1:

"Ballots" were issued at signin at the special meeting of members. That is where each member (in good standing according to the record voters list) was given a ballot for _him/her self_, and one for each valid proxy received BY the "record date". There is where the rub occurred.

The Secretary would not give the proxies to the person signing in - IF they were not property owners/paid up members. (All proxies had to be received by mail addressed to the Corporation, and opened in a special meeting of board members on the eve of "record date"). This procedure of issuing ballots at signin was done because, obviously, if a proxy was received for someone who did NOT attend the meeting, they cannot be voted by anyone.

The proxies state "The undersigned hereby appoints ______, as my proxy, with full power of substitution to represent me as my attorney in fact in the manner my appointee deems appropriate in all matters properly brought before the Special Meeting of Members on April 5, 2008 or any other properly called and noticed meeting of members, either special or general, of the XXX XXXX Association, or any adjournment thereof, with full powers that the undersigned would possess if personally present"

That sounds like a power of attorney. But one person showed up with a "Power of Attorney" (for real estate transactions), executed by a valid property owner, and the Secretary likewise refused to issue that person a ballot. It seems to come down to WHO do you want choosing your board members. REAL property owners - according to the clear reading of the Bylaws? or anyone off the street - who might be carrying a proxy card?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
IMO the proxy was valid and the holder should have been allowed to vote the proxies assigned to him by any member in good standing. I do not own stock in GM, however if I contact owners of the stock and get their proxy then I can vote in their place. It's unfortunate that Texas law is silent on this however you might check Texas laws for corporations.

Ohio tackled this under their condominium code but it doesn’t apply to single family HOA's. 5311.22 (D) When any fiduciary or representative of a unit owner who is not described in division (C) of this section has furnished the unit owners association with satisfactory proof of authority, that person may vote as though a unit owner.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Yes, I am afraid that's right: So you should have accepted the absent member's proxie votes EVEN IF they were cast by a member not in good standing.

That same member, however, cannot cast his own vote because he/she is not a member in good standing.

What a mess!

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
I've never heard of a proxy having a place to vote for the candidates on the slate, nor of a proxy that only carries a members vote to the meeting. If a member is unable to attend the meeting they can mail in their ballot; this is not a proxy; it's a mail-in ballot. A proxy is a document assigning your right to vote to another individual. That individual actually votes for you. If that individual is not in good standing then they cannot vote for themself or for you regardless of whether you are in good standing or not, the same applies to a non-member, unless of course if the docs say othewise. I believe the assn's bylaws were very clear on this. I believe the board acted IAW the bylaws.
MystifieD (Texas)
Posts: 11
Posted:
MaryA1:

Thanks for your input. The majority of our board shares your view but recognizes it gets pretty involved. We think Texas law does not support "mail-in ballots" per say. Applicable law ( "Texas Non-Profit Corporation Act" Art. 1396-2.13. VOTING OF MEMBERS. subparagraph B) says in relevant part "A member may vote in person or, unless the articles of incorporation or the by-laws otherwise provide, may vote by proxy executed in writing by the member or by his duly authorized attorney-in-fact." Our bylaws do not mention proxies. Therefore, we have concluded this would not include mail in ballots, but would include votes cast by proxies.

Our problem seems to be the loose phrasing of Art. 1396-2.13(C): "At each election for directors every member entitled to vote at such election shall have the right to vote, in person or by proxy, for as many persons as there are directors to be elected and for whose election he has a right to vote, or, if expressly authorized by the articles of incorporation, to cumulate his vote by giving one candidate as many votes as the number of such directors multiplied by his vote shall equal, or by distributing such votes on the same principle among any number of such candidates." _Cumulative_ voting wasn't an issue here, but the first sentence leaves open to some subjective intrepretation as to whether a member or person NOT entitled to vote having some right to cast a proxy vote. Our ByLaws say NOTHING about proxies - merely each member is entitled to one vote for each director being elected (or in this instance UN-elected).

The Bylaws further state "management of the Corporation shall be vested in the Board of Directors", and Texas Law confirms this same wording. It is generally the boards opinion that we have acted in accordance with the bylaws and governing documents, AND FURTHER that are empowered to resolve that proxy votes may be cast ONLY by a member in good standing.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Mail-in ballots work ONLY if:
nominations are closed at some point and the ballot printed, mailed to all members
no nominations from the floor are accepted
no write-in candidates submitted for office.
deadline for the mail-in return ballot is confidential (double enveloped)
the Board has a designated "Teller" to verify and count all ballots.

MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
MystifieD,

Think this phrase in your bylaws is the key: "and for whose election he has a right to vote". IMO, this reinforces your BOD's interpretation that a person not in good standing cannot vote for himself nor for an individual giving him a proxy. "A right to vote" means you are a member and are not delinquent!!
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Mary said: "IMO, this reinforces your BOD's interpretation that a person not in good standing cannot vote for himself nor for an individual giving him a proxy."

I disagree. There are two different votes here. The proxy holder simply carried the vote to the meeting. It was not "his" vote he cast. That proxy giver is being deprived of voting rights due to something out of his control, simply because the Board determined that the proxy "carrier" had no voting rights.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Susan wrote:

04/14/2008 9:08 PM Quote Reply
Mary said: "IMO, this reinforces your BOD's interpretation that a person not in good standing cannot vote for himself nor for an individual giving him a proxy."

I disagree. There are two different votes here. The proxy holder simply carried the vote to the meeting. It was not "his" vote he cast. That proxy giver is being deprived of voting rights due to something out of his control, simply because the Board determined that the proxy "carrier" had no voting rights.

Susan,

I didn't read it that way. In fact I've never heard of a proxy being used this way. A proxy is a document giving another individual the right to vote for you. A proxy isn't a ballot.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Mary from what I understand from this post is that H/O X was a member not in good standing and could not vote his/her own ballot. Now H/O Z was a member in good standing but for whatever reason could not attend. Now H/O Z gives H/O X their proxy making them their agent, and giving them the legal right to vote in their place. This legal document in effect turns H/O X into H/O Z (a member in good standing) allowing him to vote or take any other action that the proxy gave him authority to do. This is done all the time in the corporate world and IMO if the CC&R's or law (like AZ) do not directly prohibit proxies this person should have been allowed to vote in H/O Z's place.

Now it is evident from the post that the BOD did not want to be recalled and chose this method to block it. MystifieD if you're lucky they won't take you to court over this matter, I think they would win.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Glen,

The way I see it is that the person who was delinquent in his assessments was not able to vote whether he was voting for himself or for someone who gave him a proxy. The proxy entitles him to vote as he chooses not necessarily to just cast the vote the individual who gave it to him would have cast. If he had carried a marked ballot to the meeting (from the individual who gave him the proxy) that would be a different story, IMO.

Perhaps this is really a matter for an attorney.
MaryA1 (Arizona)
Posts: 7,043
Posted:
Glen,

Forgot to mention. You said they have the legal right to vote. But someone who is delinquent in their assessment does not have the legal right to vote according to the CCRs. So, which legal right prevails? As I said, perhaps this is a matter for an attorney to resolve.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Mary, for this example assume I'm two months in arrears (I'm not) and thus not a member in good standing and I'm not allowed to vote at our annual meeting which happens to be on 04-16-08. Now I can go to my neighbors who are paid up and get their proxy to vote in their place. When I go into the meeting even though I cannot cast a ballot under my name I can sign in and vote for everyone who has given me the legal standing to vote in their place.

If I have valid proxies from Mary, Harold, Roger, Donna, and Susan; then I can vote five times acting as their agent even though I can't cast my own ballot. This is no different than if they had given them to each of their children who do not live in our community and therefore are not members in good standing. Now each of those proxy holders has the absolute right to sign in as their parents and vote.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
Also - everyone has assumed that this is a general proxy, where the proxy holder can determine the vote.

This may be a designated proxy, where the wishes of the voter are simply carried to the meeting by the courier (proxy holder)

By the way, parliamentary procedure won't touch this: it does not deal with proxies since voting in person is a member's first right and obligation.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
as i understand it, GlenL hit it on the head.

Think of it this way: You have a right to cast YOUR vote, unless you have given up that right by forfeiture (non payment of assessments, or in some HOA, fines or fees). Other owners have a right to cast their votes. The proxy process transfers that owners' right to another person, who acts in their stead. the Proxy "holder" need not be a member, owner, etc... the proxy holder is not casting HIS vote, he/she is casting the vote of the proxy giver. IMO, it is the status of the Proxy GIVER that determines the value of the vote.

I can give my proxy to a homeless felon, should I desire, and have that person represent me and cast my vote (or, any vote he choses to, if my proxy allows blind voting).

However, i would agree that I am not required to give a proxy FORM to anyone but a qualified owner/member to be filled out. I can limit the distribution of the forms to "valid" voting members, unless an owner gave a proxy to someone to stand in for them at the distribution of the proxy forms...
MystifieD (Texas)
Posts: 11
Posted:
TO ALL who have posted:

I have followed (with great interest) each of your thoughts and comments. One thing that emerges through the smoke is that there are definate differences of opinion on the issue. Some for and some against, but the discussion hasn't drawn out any definative law on the matter -- which leaves the question at top of my initial post open:

[[ QUESTION: Is it within the power of the Board of Directors to resolve that proxy votes cast for removal of board members - MUST be cast by a qualified member of the POA. ]]

Would the decision be "void", or merely "voidable". IMO a "void" action is one by a board which is illegal (contrary to written law) or enacted by a board meeting which was illegally constituted (not a quorum present, or not properly noticed, etc). So long as the board is acting in what it believes to be the best interest of the majority of the property owners, IMO the decision how to handle it falls squarely in their lap ---- until such time as it may be resolved by a court.

In this MESS, I have found nothing in law (even corporate law) which seems to give any definative guidance. The nearest is some definations or encyclopedia references that say "Generally any power that a stockholder possesses at a corporate meeting can be delegated to a proxy. An ordinary proxy can vote on regular corporate business, such as the amendment of the bylaws. The proxy is not authorized to vote, however, on extraordinary corporate business, such as a merger, unless given special authority to do so." or "A stockholder can act as a proxy for another shareholder, but it is not necessary for a proxy to be a stockholder."

Therefore the decision seems to fall to the board.

In this MESS, the board met on proper notice on the eve of "record date" ( 36 hours before the special membership meeting) for the purpose of opening, reviewing, and counting ALL proxies received and to determine "members entitled to vote" as of "record date". A quorum was present (six of seven). Some proxies were self designed or written by opposing factions and some were sent out by the board with "notice" of the special meeting. Each "type" or "style" was approved (one conditionally which contained an _electronic signature_). It was resolved the electronic one would be included in the preliminary count but removed if an original signature was not received within one week.

The board resolved (5 for, the Chair did not vote) that "that a proxy vote for the removal of directors must be cast by, and may be cast only by, a person who is otherwise qualified to vote in an election for directors."

GlenL:
(Ohio)
IMO, that action is what would have to be challanged in court, and I readily admit I am not sure how it would come down.
About your own example: If I were a GM stockholder, I would not like it much if FORD stockholders were voting proxies in a GM meeting on issues that would affect the value of my GM stock! What would I say if the GM board refused to accept those proxies?

And ..........
BrianB:
(Arizona)
Certainly (no malice intended) but I would not like your homeless felon voting in an election that affects my property value! I might even parise my board for not accepting his vote -- unless I wanted the outcome to be as he had voted!!!

Glen:
(Ohio) says: "each of those proxy holders has the absolute right to sign in as their parents and vote."

MaryA1
(Arizona) says: "But someone who is delinquent in their assessment does not have the legal right to vote according to the CCRs. So, which legal right prevails?

Several have said: "Perhaps this is really a matter for an attorney.", and probably so. There is a committee of members formed demanding a "reccount" soon, so It may be before an attorney soon.

And I appreciate the all your comments.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Mysti...

I don't like the ideas of Felons voting on things that affect my welfare either! However, the most I can do about that is vote them out of Congress every 2 years or so.

MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianB on 04/15/2008 8:32 AM
Mysti...

I don't like the ideas of Felons voting on things that affect my welfare either! However, the most I can do about that is vote them out of Congress every 2 years or so.


OMG!!!

Too funny! Bravo~~
MystifieD (Texas)
Posts: 11
Posted:
BrianB
(Arizona)

If you give me your "proxy", can I go to your precinct and cast your congresional vote to get rid of the bumbs?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
MystifieD, that type of voting is one where proxies are prohibited however you can get married by proxy in Texas.

Trivia: Four states in the United States allow proxy marriages. California, Colorado, Texas, and Montana. California’s proxy marriage is limited to members of the armed forces who are deployed for conflicts or war.

California, Colorado, and Texas require that one of parties must appear before the civil authorities. Montana is the only state that allows a Double Proxy marriage where neither party has to appear before the civil authorities.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
i have always advocated that Congressional elections be run this way.

One month before the election, each state is randomly assigned senators and representatives races for whom their citizens will vote. The candidates have one month to show their value on the issues to those electorates, and then the voting happens. This year, California votes for Texas's Senators, TExas votes for Alaska's, Alaska votes for Deleware, etc..

Thus, it doesn't matter how much pork you sent HOME, because YOUR voters aren't voting for you. WHat matters is what you did with EVERYONE's money, not how much you stole for your gang.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MystifieD on 04/13/2008 7:15 PM
QUESTION: .............. The board is of the opinion that members would NOT like board members being elected by persons who do not own property in the subdivision, or by persons who are not paid up members. Therefore, proxies for voting on removal of board members must be cast only by valid members.

What say you --- anyone?

I say, unless your By-laws specifically state that the proxy must be a member that anyone can be the proxy (unless there is a state limitation, such as, some states require the proxy to be at least 18 years of age). The proxy is presenting the vote(s) for the member in good standing, not for themselves. Thus the proxy's vote is in compliance with the Board's opinion.

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