board response to members

I live in a small HOA. I have been getting letters in the mail for the last six months that are for $100.00/month fine. I just got one on March 20th and the fine is for April on the statement and it is not even April. The statement just says "violation"
I have asked the HOA board and the management company several times in writing, phone calls and email, and registered mail for the actual CCR or Rule and Regulation section that I have violated. I have never been given a response. Is this the way it works? The HOA gets to violate me without a reference to a CCR section or Rule/Reg? We have a meeting in a couple days should I stand up in the open session part and ask them in front of the rest of the people? What if they never answer me can they keep the monthly fines going without an explanation? I think I know that they want me to move my truck from my driveway but the ccr's or rules dont forbid parking in my driveway. As a matter of fact everyone parks their truck/car in their driveway.

Also Bob, do some research on the internet. Go to the California Davis/Sterling Act or Sterling/Davis Act. That will tell you about the State laws on HOAs ability and how to fine a homeowner. If you genuinely did not recieve a registered letter from the Board and did not get a hearing on your violation, then they are probably fining you without proper due process.

Also, read your HOA CC&Rs to see if you can determine if you are violating any protective covenants. I would do this before going to the meeting. It might be worthwhile (after reading the CC&Rs) to take a look around and see how many violations are being ignored. If there are ignored violations then make sure you bring those up at the meeting. The association should not be fining people for violations and ignoring others, but it happens.

Remember that board memebers are almost always volunteers so don't beat then up unnecessarily for something they are doing for you and others for free. One thing that really gets under my skin is someone that demands I do things for them but never volunteer or help out when we need help.

Good luch.

Chuck

Susan, What are you trying to say?

BobT2:

Depending on the type of meeting the open forum is really not the time to speak about your individual letters or fines. I would suggest that you request a meeting with the board to discuss this but not in an open forum setting.

Many Owners will say to management or the board I never received a letter but it is our policy to send several letters with the Articles and Section being violated giving an amount of time to correct such violation. Upon the expiring time-line, a hearing is then scheduled and then a decision letter is sent to the Owner with fines or not depending on how the board voted. Whether the Owner shows to the hearing does not negate the board rendering a decision.

Therefore, I would ask to see the notices sent, see if you were afforded a hearing and if fines were assessed in accordance with your state laws.

I know it must be my truck. The board has tried to move it stating it is commercial, which it is. My concern is that who defines commercial? We said that it is the Vehicle Code because our CCR's don't define it but do refer to the CA Vehicle Code which does define it and if thats the case all trucks should park in the garage. The board says well yours is different. We clear that up and they board then says we are "operating a business from our home" We say incorrect, show them proof. We do some paperwork from our kitchen table. Thus they state that that is external evidence of a home based business. We disagree. Our CCR"S say we can have a home based business as long as no signage, customers, or deliveries. We have none of that.

I just want the section that they say we are violating us on. They have none that does not include their vehicles therefore they will not give us one. I am willing to remove my truck if they show me an actual section that says I cannot park their.

I found out today that things will work out in my favor as the members are planning a recall election.
Thanks for your help. I have read a ton of sights with the same type of problems. I think that many CCR's do not define the word "commercial" If that was done there would not be questions.
Our CCR's just say "boats, campers, commercial vehicles shall be parked behind the fence or in garage." Does the baord get to decide what commercial is only to have the next board define it another way? I will never move into a HOA again.

Bob,

"I think that many CCR's do not define the word "commercial""

With all due respect, as I indicated in my previous post, we (the board) gets to define "commercial."

Here is the location in our CC&Rs that give us that "right."

"Section 7. Board's Determination Binding. In the event of any dispute or disagreement between any owners relating to the property subject to this Declaration, or any questions of interpretation or application of the provisions of this Declaration or the Bylaws, the determination thereof by the Board shall be final and binding on each and all such owners."

Chances are your documents give your board a similar "discretion."

In court, a judge upheld our determination, based in part on the above.

Regarding the "home business," I can't help you there, however, we have had 3 businesses shut down in the last 2 months.

One was a "mulch" company (the mulch truck was the dead giveaway, even though he received no "deliveries"), a daycare center (home-based, with fewer than 6 children, even though there is no signage, and we were unaware of it for 3 years. Once we did discover it, the owners opted to move rather than close it), and a catering business, again, while we were not aware of it initially, once we were, we had to move for it to cease, and it did. She now operates out of a local strip mall.

On the other hand, there is a difference between someone who does paperwork at home, or who is a freelancer, for example, and someone who is operating a business out of their home.

Your truck would be a violation in our HOA, and, as history would reveal, our enforcing the restriction against you would hold up in court. You have commercial signage on it, it is a commercial vehicle, it has to go in the garage or off site. It doesn't have to be *defined* in the CC&R, as long as the board makes a consistent and documented determination.

Not sure about the other, the alleged home business, though, without more information.

But one thing is clear, you have clearly evolved in my view on this thread from the position of an "innocent" homeowner being put-upon by a mean nasty board, to someone who obviously is knowingly violating at least one restriction and forcing the board to be consistent in their enforcement of the government documents. From what I can tell, the fines appear to be valid, at least as far as the commercial vehicle goes.

The fact that they park *trucks* does not support your comment or contention that they are breaking the rules, too, in and of itself, unless their trucks also have commercial signage on them, which you seem to indicate they do not.

So. Anyway. I wish you luck on the home business thing, but you need to stop violating the commercial vehicle restriction. Those fines are going to get pretty expensive.

By the way, I'm more than a little annoyed that you tried to lie to us, or at least present a bogus story at the beginning.

Your initial post was all over the place about how you have no idea, no one has ever said anything to you -- you never got any communication about what you are doing wrong -- how do you find out what the fines are for? Do you just ask in the meeting, etc etc etc.

"What if they never answer me can they keep the monthly fines going without an explanation? "

And then you point blank make it clear that there has been an on-going dialog about your commercial vehicle, that they say it is, and you say it isn't.

That's pretty clear to me that you knew exactly what the fines were for.

Just because you don't agree with their interpretation of your vehicle, you can't sit there and then try to tell us you have no idea why they are fining you.

Thanks for finally coming clean, though.

MicheleD

Our CCR's also state that "CCR must be enforced equally" mine are not!

Then challenge them in a legal and professional manner on it. Don't play games with them (or us).

If you feel they have not properly "defined" commercial vehicle, and you feel that such a definition will include their vehicles as well, then you are certainly free to take it to a judge to make a final declaration.

If they have not done their homework and codified their definition of "commercial vehicle," then let the judge decide who has the stronger case.

However, be aware, you might think they are sloppy until you get into a court battle. Certainly there have been a resident or two in our own association who thought, after doing internet chat room searches and corner bar lawyering that they had us "backed into a corner" as well, only to find in court that all of our complaints have been thoroughly documented, all of our board decisions legal and codified, all of our notices within the structure of our documents.

We have not lost a challenge yet. Opposing lawyers love to go the "selective enforcement" route because in the past, oh, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, HOA boards were much more lax than many are today. Now opposing lawyers are finding that the boards of HOAs are much more organized, trained, and engaged. Yes, there are still horror stories out there, but if one thinks for a minute that ALL HOAs are run by mindless power hungry dictators, then so be it. These are the ones who are surprised when they do get into court or mediation that, in fact, there are plenty of HOA boards out there today who are doing it right.

Please, challenge if you think you have standing. It will be an education for you AND for your board if they have not been consistent and have not maintained their fiduciary duty.

Bob is correct, if you live in California, and your HOA bans commercial vehicles, AND you have a pick up truck, you are in trouble. Pick up trucks in Cali are commercial vehicles, as stupid a rule as that is.

i agree michelle... this has been a very around the bush way to get to his point, which could have been said in the first post.

i was just commenting that he was correct about commercial vehicles in Cali, something I found interesting (and silly), and that i suspected isn't well known.

You only waste the time of people who were trying to help you when you weren't forthcoming with them. That's the pity.

I'm sure it does say something about my board and my HOA, regarding enforcing our documents.

It says that we are committed to the CC&Rs that we all agreed to when we moved into the subdivision.

It says that when people move into our community with the expectation that they are moving into a deed-restricted community that respects the rules and regulations, they can count on that happening.

And there's no need to *feel sorry* for our residents, they receive highly professional documents and notices. The first communication with any resident who may be in violation always assumes that any violation was inadvertent. It's a *reminder* notice, complete with the section of the CC&R that is in violation. In your case, you already KNOW what section it is, you just choose to not accept it.

But if by the 3rd notice a homeowner is still ignoring the communications or refusing to comply, we then step out of the picture and turn the situation over to the attorney.

In addition, when people feel strongly enough about challenging, then they need to be prepared to back up their position, and also be prepared to pay the costs. The challenges that the HOA has won have all had the fees and costs paid for by the homeowner who was unsuccessful in eroding our documents.

Remember, people generally receive the respect they give. My comments to you prior to discovering that your initial post was bogus were very respectful. I'm still respectful, but that doesn't mean my opinion of you is diminished because of the sneaky way you operate.

I do hope you get your problem resolved. However, I hope you get it resolved in such a way that is a benefit to your documents and does not erode or diminish them. Granted, your board, if not enforcing against the trucks properly is very much responsible for that as well. My hope would be that you are able to, as I mentioned earlier, either have the restriction against commercial vehicles removed (if the association membership wishes it to be) or have the restriction amended in such as way as to allow trucks, while still restricting signage on vehicles and other classes of commercial-type vehicles.

Something tells me, however, that it will be an ugly contest, especially when the key players involved are not willing to put the integrity of their deed restrictions above their own convenience.

BobT,
I never said this on this Board before and I have posted well over 1000 times. Bob, you need to hang it up here, you are just taking up valuable time of a lot of people that know a lot more than you do. Go away Bob and come back when you can appreciaite what your are getting for nothing. You will pay a lot of cash to hear what these folks have told you, be a good idea to get your wallet out and learn the hard way.

Bob,
It seems that everyone needs a "TIME OUT". I will answer your question as best I can. Having been to court with my own association member for a similar violation, I stayed away because I get kinda steamed with this subject but here is my answer.

In Florida, someone in violation of a covenant or rule, gets a letter from the Property manager per a request from the Board with copy of what they are violating.
If the violation is not corrected or addressed,then 14 days later, a second letter is sent via registered mail with a copy of the violation. Also included is the schedule of the fining amount and another 14 days to correct or respond.

Then the next move comes from our Attorney. He sends the letter, with a time frame for correction along with the fining start date--and copy of what the violation is--and it is quoted from the documents..

If there is no resolution, then we start to rely on mediation or court, which hopefully never has to go that far.

Now in defense of my fellow posters, we get all kinds of people on this site, who want us to give them the magic wand, to get answers on how to avoid some of the really dumb, ignorant moves that they have pulled in the associations. Reading all of the covenants tells everyone the answers to their own questions but it is so much easier to ask us and hope that we give answers that they like. Most don't like what we tell them because they are definitely in violation of their documents and don't want to be told so. I am not scolding you, just telling you that we are really frustrated with the numbers of people who do this.

BobT2,
Wrong again Bob, I am not a Board member. But I know something about associations and I know something about my association after 18 years. None of them are perfect, hope yor're not surprized. But on this site we have got some damn fine Board members and other posters. We have Professional Managers, we have lawyers, we have managers, we have folks thinking about residing in HOA's. Believe it or not you and I are kindred souls and we just happen to have had different experiences. It is easy to fall into the trap of hating all boards, been in there and out more than once, but if you want to hear the truth as I see it, when you wipe away all the crap from this kind of associations , what you have left is the owners and there is where the power lies and there is where the blame rests.

The documents, as bad as some are, have provisions to protect the owners, if the owners want to be part of the solution.

I think Donna has been as direct as possible but she can't know what your documents state. She knows tons about Florida Laws, etc, she is a student of the documents and everyone that has answered you has a great deal of knowledge and know what they are talking about.

Yes, except you already admitted that you know what the violation is and you refuse to correct it.

You want to use their continued (alleged) violation of the same CC&R as an excuse to continue your violation.

It's highly possible that they do have a record of a correspondence they sent that laid out the violation, and somehow, some way, it never made it to you. In cases like that, the law assumes delivery if it was placed in the United States Postal Service. They would have stronger standing if it were sent certified or return receipt, but that's their cross to bear.

However, they should have a copy of that communication in their files, and yes, they should give you that information.

Nobody here, including me, ever said otherwise.

And, by the way, your *question* was answered by almost everyone who posted after you, including me, based on your original post. It apparently just wasn't the exact info you wanted.

But you know what CC&R you are violating, you just don't agree with their definition of it.

The way I see it, I suppose you could just let this play out in continued fines, until such time as it elevates to a lawsuit.

read http://www.californiacondoguru.com/bmfaqs.html
“What is the #1 problem board members face?”

Document, document, document, take pictures, talk to your neighbors and get them together.

-part of the reason they are not responding to us is because they agree that the
ccr and rules are not clear and They are going to change the rules in 45 days to state that my truck is not allowed while making it fine for other pickups, company trucks with lettering to park in the drive. This will allow the other board members that have large pickups with lettering on them to park. .