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BrianL (Maryland)
Posts: 23
Posted:
I am on the board of a small HOA consisting of 13 sf lots of 2+ acres. Our covenants clearly do not allow above ground swimming pools. We have a HO who wants to ask the HOA to grant him an exception to the rule and allow him to put up a AG pool, assuming the design is acceptable to the HOA. He does not have the funds to do an IG pool. He will make his case based on the fact that his lot and the pool specifically, can not be seen by anyone else in the HOA, which is true.
Our docs make no mention of exceptions, either if allowed or what the procedure would be to grant one. As a BOD member, I am conflicted about such exceptions, especially the rationale that because his lot is hidden, he should get the exception. It is my firm belief that there must be one set of rules for everyone and if we allow his, we must allow any others who apply within reason. There are only 2 other lots that are not visible by other homeowners while the rest are readily visible by everyone. If someone else in the future is denied an AG pool, are we setting our selves up for problems? I would appreciate any thoughts.
GloriaL (Georgia)
Posts: 195
Posted:
We went through a contentious Annual Meeting in 2007 solely because one HomeOwner wanted to subdivide his Lot, which is about 8 acres.
Our CCR's stipulate clearly "No Lot shall be sudivided." He said his case was an exception as his was the only 8 acrea Lot, although there are other 5 acre and several 3.7 acre Lots. He wanted the BOD to grant an "exception", but nowhere in our CCR's does the BOD have the power to grant an "exception" so he brought his request to the Annual Meeting of the Membership. Our documents would have had to be amended to either allow Lots to be subdivided or to allow the BOD to grant exceptions to the CCR's. A vote was taken by the Membership and it was voted down.
I do not like the idea of granting "exceptions." IMHO, it opens up too many cans of worms. We all were handed copies of our CCR's when we came into our HOA, and agreed to abide by them. Circumstances change in life, but our CCR's don't. I believe that the hardest part of being on the BOD is enforcing the CCR's equally.
I am glad that our Membership did not allow the BOD to grant "exceptions" because each new BOD will look at "exceptions" subjectively. Following the CCR's as directed prevents that.
Gloria
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
Brian:

You cannot and should not allow an above ground pool when the documents prohibit it. The board is setting yourselves up for setting a precedence for future problems. Unless the board amends the CCR's to reflect allowing above ground pools, the board cannot give permission to the contrary.
PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
BrianL: Sometime ago, this forum went through a long dissertation on inground and above ground swimming pools, with rationale for an 'above ground' since it is a "temporary" structure.

However, you state this is a request for granting an exception to the existing rule of 'no above ground pools'. I believe if you are toying with an idea of granting exceptions for certain situations, it should be stated somewhere with some authority behind it (either as a Rule/Reg., or voted on as an amendment to the official docs.) Not necessarily for the specific situation of a pool, but for ANY exception requested and it should have valid reasons for its consideration. The Board would need to render their final decision based on careful review and consideration for the overall good of the community. You would want to think long and hard about implementing this. Not to say it can't be done but think about long term repercussions.
BrianL (Maryland)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Gloria and Gloria, (hmm.. sounds like a hymn)

Thanks for the replies. I pretty much knew we couldnt grant the exception within the rules of the HOA. In the past, every little has been done in our HOA within the rules. The irony here is we have several HOs who pretty much do what they want without regard to the HOA but yet these same ones try and hold everyone else to rules they pull out of whole cloth. These are the HOs who will block any amendment to allow the AG pool. I really feel for this HO who is asking for the AG pool, since to his credit he is coming to the HOA and asking instead of just doing it like some others would.
BrianL (Maryland)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Paul,

Thanks for the reply. As I said, our docs say zero about "exceptions", so there is no authority behind it. And I know that an amendment to allow AGs is dead in the water, no pun intended.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
BrianL - My perspective of your situation is a bit different than others and I'll offer it to the mix. First, let me preface that in order to permit the AB pool, your governing documents should be followed on amending the covenants. However, I believe that your covenants are like most other associations, written for the most part to make broad restrictions because it's expedient/boiler plate/easy for the developer as homes are being constructed. Not written by someone with a visual or creative perspective. It seems your docs. permit IG pools, is that correct? If so, the request for an AB pool isn't way off the mark, given that his lot is unique from the majority of the other 11 lots.

If your association members permitted the AB pool for the 2 lots not visible by other homeowners, they should do so based upon a set of criteria. Therefore, your assoc. would not really be making an exception per say as I see it. Because it's not like your association would be denying another lot with the same set of characteristics where the lots are not visible.

The way I would do it is require the owner that wants the AB pool to put the request in writing with a site-plan, location, set-back from lot lines, a little sun diagram, the closest roadway, that kind of stuff. Then send a letter out to all 13 lot owners and poll them/get input. If none object, go about amending your covenants to permit the AB pool for those lots with a certain set of characteristics.

Your a very small HOA and times change, covenants that seemed reasonable evolve with the times. How old is your HOA, how old are your covenants?
BrianL (Maryland)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Gerald,


This is all true. The development started in 1996, was handed over in 1999 I believe and I bought a home (from previous owner not developer) in late 2000. And to be completely forthcoming here, I live in a lot open to all views and I have an IG pool which was there when we bought in.



Here is where I have a problem. We have 2 HO who ignore the HOA when comes to their own property. The biggest violator also has a lot that is very private and his response in the past to his violations has always been that since no can see it he can do what he likes and "screw the HOA". Thus I am not eager to now allow or support anything based on that thinking. Plus, I personally dont feel that is right, we all belong to the HOA and the rules should be uniform in my opinion. Allowing an exception for just 1 HO will just create more problems down the road, IMO. And believe me we have enough problems now ;).



I agree that the only way to do this is through amending the docs but I personally would not support allowing AG pools to some lots and not others. Its probably a moot point anyway since I know we would never get the 2/3 to pass any allowance of AG pools. I just wish there was an easier way to let him (and anyone for that matter) have his pool for his kids.

Thanks again to everyone.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
an additional thought here is that the original ban on AG pools may have had reasons other than aesthetics. perhaps there is a risk of flooding or erosion damage down the hills or into neighbors yards, or drainage. that should be explored as well.

As for the execption, one of the battle cries of HOA's is that they preserve property values. Will property value be enhanced by allowing an AG pool? Will that be in keeping with the goals of the HOA? Look at the slipper slope: if you allow one AG pool, you will probably have to allow a dozen. Is that okay? Is that how the area wants to look in 20 years?

when you grant an exemption, you open the door. Once opened, you cannot easily prevent things from getting through.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Brian,

That is exactly the point that is foremost in the arguement for or against the A.G pools If you allow 1, then you must allow anyone else who applies. It must be equally enforced or approved. Otherwise it becomes "selective enforcement" and that is not a happy street to go down.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
BrianB,

I understand that you have particular owners that have lots not visible and they may be violators of covenants, certainly no excuse for that. However, you see permitting the AG pool as an exception, I do not share that characterization. I'll probably get challenged on that, certainly not set in my belief. But...not all the lots are equal. If they were, and you permitted one to do it, and another with the same set of characteristics to not do it, than that would be an exception, and actually discrimination. In this case your association could be permitting one lot to do it for a physical reason that the other lots can't claim. So I disagree with you that if you permit one to do it, you will probably have to allow a dozen. You do not have a dozen lots that are not visible from the street.

Pools in general may be, I repeat may be perceived by some to be of value. An AG pool, rather than no pool at all, may net the seller a little more money. In that way the home selling for more can increase everyone's property value because the home that sold can be used as real estate a comp during the buyer and Realtor research process. I think if the Board gets feedback from other owners, yeah or neah to the AG pool for particular lots that are not visible from the street or not visible to other owners, then and only then can the Board be acting on behalf of the association, rather than opinions of the committed few.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
DonnaS - Good day!! : ) The argument for selective enforcement doesn't apply here. If anything it's more like selective restriction!! I know, I know the covenants are written the way they are, and if the association feels passionately enough they should update them from their writing in 1996. However, this particular association is 13 lots, 2 not visible from the street. Let's take off our conglomerate, multi-dwelling, 3000 unit association board caps and think a little more rural/suburban with this one. : )
HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
"It must be equally enforced or approved" But they already are not doing this! They are allowing another owner (the "screw the HOA" guy) to do as he pleases on his lot without enforcing the rules. You're just talking about selective enforcement of AG pools. Whereas they need to be enforcing ALL of the rules or why bother?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Gerald,
Total new concept so lets give it a go. Probably a change in the wording of the covenant is in order, Because it is such a small association, they might be able to tweek this application's restrictions but I still have an issue with one resident being treated differently that the others. Thank Gosh it is only 13 lots.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
DonnaS - You may have an issue with it, BrianB and BrianL may have an issue with it, why even I have an issue with one resident being treated differently than others. However, not if that owner has a handicap AH HAH!!!, or some other compelling reason to be treated differently. In this case we're talking about lots that are not visible. Now the docs. were written 12 years ago. Were those lots visible then? If so I may temper my belief that a non-creative person wrote the original docs.

Me thinks that if it were me on BrianL's Board I would remove my opinion from the matter and ask my neighbors how they feel. If none have an issue with the AG pool, am I not supposed to act on the behalf of the best interests of the owners?
HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
"but I still have an issue with one resident being treated differently that the others." Why does that bother you Donna, when they are already treating another lot owner differently?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

That's the point, one is being treated differently, now there will be two. The docs must be changed if most of the others are okay with it. If the others are NOT okay, then we are back to square 1 with 2 now being non compliant. 2 out of 13 homes is alot. I say go for an amendment. Ya just can't say "it's okay" to put in the AG pool. Would I vote for an variance? Absolutely!
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
13 lots or 400 lots; we live in a democratic society where majority rules. The CCR's must be amended in order to allow the AG pool. With 13 lots that should be an easy accomplishment!
BrianL (Maryland)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Let me clarify a few things:
1. The docs are boiler plate developer docs never amended after turnover. The only reason that I can imagine that AG pools were not allowed in the first place is the dubious belief that they will negatively impact property values. There are no drainage or other issues here.
2. We as in the HOA, are not treating some owners differently per se. Are we allowing it to happen? Sure. But, we are 13 homes, with 13 acres of common ground, all protected forest that surrounds half of the community, no other community assets. We have dues to pay the insurance on this ground. Roads are public. We have no manager, no lawyer and no funds to hire one. So essentially its almost the wild wild west, there is little we can do to enforce anything. Most of us abid by by the rules. Our violators are very in your face, intimidating types and only 1 or 2 of us will engage them, everyone else just wants to be left alone at this point. Until the problem children stop them from doing something on their property of course then they start bitching. We have an AC committee but the only time anything has been permanently denied or violations brought, was when our 2 violators were in charge of the board or the AC. And in those cases the rule interpretations were incorrect IMO. So as you can imagine, there is a LOT of bad blood.

Gerald, I understand your point that the more private lots are different and you believe that we could amend the docs to allow AG pools or anything else for that matter, based on that difference. I just respectably disagree with that. We all were given the docs before buying, we all pay the same dues. We should all be held to the same standards, excluding considerations for handicap ramps etc.

I guess I was hoping that there was a way short of amending to let this guy put a pool in for his kids, which in the back of my mind I knew wasnt within the rules but it was worth a shot. We need 2/3 to amend but I know that several HOs are so anti-AG pool its useless.

You all are fun to bounce things off and I respect your opinions even if I might disagree. Thanks
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Gloria, just for clarity, i must state:

we do NOT live in a democratic society. the United States is not, was not, and has never been a democracy. It was not founded as a democracy, it is not currently a democracy. Our society is not democratic either: we do not vote on societal norms, we do not let majority rule on societal issues.

lastly, businesses have never been democratic, and i suspect, democracy is not a great model for capitalism. I can think of no businesses that run on a majority rules decision making model. While there may be an occasional majority rules voting process, that doesn't make something a democracy.

I stand ready to be corrected, however, should I be wrong.
GloriaM (North Carolina)
Posts: 829
Posted:
Brian:

Its late and one of our fist wonderfully warm nights here in NC. I am sure you enjoy that pleasure often. I will make my statement short; I live in an HOA, you live in an HOA, we vote for elections, we vote to amend our CCR's, we vote to radified our budget, we vote to sell common area....it takes a majority rule in HOA's either 2/3rds to amend, 80% to purchase or sell land; therefore this makes us a majority rules society!
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
i live in an HOA, you live in an HOA. I vote for board members. You vote for board members. Those board members make many decisions without my input or direct vote. I entrust them to represent my best interests. I do not vote on every issue, I have never voted to hire a landscaper, or pay an insurance bill, or switch to a different paint scheme for the rec center, my board representative does that. That's a republic. I live in a republic. The US is a republic, your HOA is a republic. Democracy works in small doses, but bogs down when every decision must be subjected to majority wins voting.

Remember, if the US was a democracy, we wouldn't have senators or congressmen, and Al Gore would have been president.

I truly do hope you are enjoying your warm night. There's still snow on my horizon here, if i look up the hill behind the house.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
BrianB - You live in a society, as many civilized do across the world, where an elected few govern because the majority of those that vote elected them, and therefore put them in a position to act. That process is called Majority Rule and a major principle of Democracy. It is also a process termed Representative Democracy. Democracy shares similarity to a Republic, both have heads of state. However Republics can have a Head of State (Prime Minister) and a President with varying roles, and the President in a Republic may have less authority than the Head of state. Some republics permit the appointment of a President and a Prime Minister who have opposing political convictions. In that way, the US is not a true Republic.

In an HOA the principals of representative democracy become more evident do the relative size of the association in comparison to the entire population of the country. You vote for Board members and empower those board members to make decisions on your behalf. Majority has the liberty, unlike many impoverished and dictated, to gather and tell the elected few to vote this way or that. And if those elected don't listen than by God they can be overruled or overthrown. That's why our country was created.

Now mind you, I'm quite ashamed of our country for various reasons. I think when it costs more money to keep illegal citizens than to deport them, there is something severely wrong with how we do things. Land of the free, YES. However, not at the expense of undermining the land itself.

The majority may get beaten physically to voice that belief but tell me when majority has ever been beaten for doing so? NEVER. Because majority chooses to be apathetic and let the minority that believes a certain way step up. Or majority chooses to sit back and be silent, let the minority take the hits. So guess what, when majority watches the fellow citizens chomping the bit, sitting in, marching on Capital Hill in the luxury of majority's homes, know that majority could join them and guess what...RULE. That process is in essence termed the Tyranny of Majority.

If everyone fought against Hitler and his regime without doubt the battle would be bloody. But I state emphatically it would have resulted in Hitler's defeat.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
lol.. thank Gerald.. I was wondering if anyone was going to call me on the US not being a true Republic either. neither democracy, nor republic, nor socialist, but an odd mix of all three.

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