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MeganM1 (Delaware)
Posts: 14
Posted:
What are the implications of the following scenario?
All chimneys in a community fail; the chimneys are under the responsibility of the “association” to maintain just like the roofs.

The homeowners were instructed to repair / replace the chimneys individually, although they must submit plans to the board.

The board’s decision was based on a desire to avoid an assessment since repairing these chimneys would bankrupt the association.

By placing this responsibility on the homeowners, how does this impact the community as a whole? Should any changes be made to our docs?

Does this set precedence for things to come?

If selling the condo, who would be responsible for any repairs required by the inspection? The seller would be able to show in the docs that the association has responsibility.

I would appreciate any advice.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
IMO the association has the duty to repair, whether they must have a special assessment or take out a loan. This is a safety issue and cannot be left up to individual owners to decide whether or not they're willing to risk it. They can attempt to change the documents, how to do so should be spelled out in the documents. HOWEVER if your documents our like ours, the mortgage holder must agree to any changes for them to become valid.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posted:
I'm confused. Have all chimneys gone bad at the same time? How can the association abdicate their responsibility and tell the owners to fix it yourself? But get approval first? Someone needs to set your board straight. Why was there no reserve for this problem?
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Megan,
ALL of the chimneys failed at the same time? WOW!! You had a Tornado that we don't know about? Anyhow, Could you please cut and paste or quote the part of the "Association Responsibility" that states the chimney language? That would help.

I don't understand why the owners have been requested to repair or replace the chimneys if they are listed under association responsibilty. To avoid an assessment would prevent the association from bankrupcy, well the Documents say that it is not the owners jobs to take care of them.

Changes to your Docs are inevitable as the Board has already made a decision to go against what the Docs say. And obviously, you do not have any Reserve funds that are adequit. This is a very bad precedent to set and I think that your budget will be the first item that needs adjusting to a much more sufficient Reserve fund.

When you sell the condo, who would be responsible for the repair would be depending on how you negotiate the contract. Taking money off from the asking price could work or the seller could be told to fix it or else no sale. It all depends on how much negotiating power you have.
MeganM1 (Delaware)
Posts: 14
Posted:
All of the chimneys!!! Can you believe it?!
Inspections were done community wide in Sept 07.The First ones since I have lived here ( since 05). My best guess for the cause of the failures(b/c whys were not addressed)was that inspections had not been done; therefore, what repairs if any were never addresses. Of course there is more sordid little juicy detail but they may be extraneous at this point.

here is what the my condo docs say:
Common elements
the common elements of **** consist of all the land building and improvements as described in schedules 2.1 and 2.2 to this declaration or as shown on the Declaration Plan or as actually exists on the land whether or not described and shown, except for and excluding the units described in schedule 5.1 to the declaration, and as further shown on the declaration Plan. Without limiting the foregoing, the Common Elements include:
(a) the land on which the buildings are located.........
(b) the foundations, structural part, supports, main walls, roofs, basements, halls, corridors, lobbies, stairways and entrances and exists(sic) of the buildings;
(c) parking lot
(h) every components of the fireplaces including the chimneys and flue components, except the pre-fabricated metal boxes inserted in the fireplaces on the declaration plan, which boxes shall become a part of the units.

I was "not heard" when I brought this issue up regarding the specific of the "docs". Instead, the Pm made two interesting statements to me questioned modifying the condo docs: repairing would bankrupt us; and did I want an assessment then?!

I am concerned mainly for the long time. Fixing a chimney "never used" is certainly not a priority for me; however it would be a very different story if it were manadated (by assessment and for the best of community) Does that makes sense? I think in this regard the board is attempting to be the friend instead of the mama.

But doesn't the issue remain that none the less, regardless of what the board has stated; the condo common elements have not been changed officially and legally.
So to summarize the present condition: almost 300 chimneys bad, all but one has been capped( for insurance purposes).

On a personal note: I am fortunate b/c my chimney is not too bad, and i am on the top level,which reduces costs.It will be fixed....... soon.
Please advise or opinions would be most appreciated.
PatrickH (California)
Posts: 204
Posted:
Hi Megan,

One way or the other, the costs for repairing the chimneys will come out of the homeowners pockets. It dosn't matter if they pay for their own repairs or the association pays for it with the dues or special assessments from the owners.

Your documents certainly sound like the repairs are an association responsibility, not the individual owners. I think your HOA would be smarter and save more time and money by getting bids from contractors to do all the repairs under one contract with the HOA and have a special assessment to pay for it. Having one contract with one company would be a lot easier and less expensive overall than having every owner going out and getting their own bids and submitting their own plans to the association for approval.

Depending on how badly damaged they are, you may need building permits to rebuild them and an inspection when the repairs are complteted. Having one contractor working with the HOA to handle the entire process from start to finsih seems like a more efficient plan to me.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
You might also ask the BOD if it is possible to go after the builder or architect; 300 chimneys going bad at once is either a design failure or poor construction. Did the city/county building department sign off on the original construction?

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
MeganM1 - Not only is there massive failure of roofs, there seems to be massive failure of your elected officials over time.

The fireplaces, excluding anything described as "not a component", or "not a responsibility of the association to maintain", should have been budgeted for replacement in the reserve account. You mean to tell me there's no money set aside for reserves that can offset some of the expense? If true, that's outrageous, and what I consider to be a breach of fiduciary duty. At the very least it's stupidity. Oh well.

The task of replacing, and coordinating the fireplace project should absolutely be accomplished by your association Board, and MC/PM. For one, doing so on a large scale should lock in a very competitive group discount. At least it can be negotiated that way. Second it will ensure it gets done to one set of agreed upon specifications. Rather than piecemeal, and by different contractors.

Now, if your association Board and or MC/PM is to stupid or obstinate to do this the way it should be done than you know what I'd say?? I'd say FINE, all the owners, exclusive of you retards on the Board will get together, get the contractor to perform the repair at a discount of us, not you. And petition to get each and every one of you off the Board and the MC/PM while we're at it. Which way do you (Board, and MC/PM) want to play this out. Oh, and in the meantime, we're contacting our state attorney general, and secretary of state in 11 business days to notify them of this matter. Get back to us and advise at your soonest. Or something to that effect.

Best of Luck!!!
MeganM1 (Delaware)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Ignornace has gotten all of us in community to this point. As with most things in life, knowledge is power. all of the residents should have been at the level two chimney inspections. All of us should have talked to the inspectors about the reports and the grandfathering of portions that were up to code at the time. The chimneys have a life expectancy like most things and that life is over. There is a reserve account, but once a house or a building reaches a certain age, if updates have not been done than guess what? Cha ching!!
I think that is what has happened. Our council and previous management companies have in the past couple years and are currenlty replacing and repairing items that could be dangerous. IMO the chimneys were most likely dubbed non essesntial once the the chinmeys were sealed.
Regardless of the "whys" situation still remains. My main concern is the real property.
I don't know how to proceed with our council. I don't know that i have any support. No one wants a assessment ( who does ?). My initial protests were precieved as such; oh, and that this would destroy the assocation ( somehow this was my fault?).
Also, alternatives to wood burning would have been great. Personally the whole idea of a "fire" in any capacity in a building with six units is frightening. I am not well versed in the many alternatives but they are out there and maybe even less than the total replacement of chinmeys.

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