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JennN (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Our community had its first annual meeting this past February and all three Board positions were open for election. Three new members were elected and we each now serve staggered terms. We officially take our seats on March 1st.

The prior Board voted on "for sale" signs at an open Board meeting. The Board voted that no "for sale" signs would be permitted in any common area of the property or in windows in accordance with our Declaration. The decision is in the meeting minutes.

The Board notified the homeowner and the homeowner asked for a special meeting to present alternative options. One Board member was unable to attend and the other two Board members met with the homeowner and decided to allow a small sign. The homeowner also has a box with flyers sitting on the porch in front of their front door. There are no minutes or written summary of this decision.

Our issue now is that another home has gone up for sale and took it upon themselves to use the same signage as the other home. This home is on the opposite side of the street from the first home, which is still for sale. The Declaration was not amended and the rules were not modified by the prior Board.

We don't want to upset our homeowners, but we also do not want to set a precedent that homeowners can just disregard the rules. Is it possible to overturn a prior Board's decision and, if so, what is the best way to go about doing it?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
IMO, you need to restate the rules to all owners, to draw your line in the sand (again).
Then, I would talk to both owners, tell them that a new board is in place, and try to work out an agreement to 30 days, 90 days, etc. of the signage.
Or, it can remain unless they change realtors, etc..

the first board let it happen, you need to honor that to a reasonable degree. It's up to you to decide reasonable.
JennN (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
BrianB, thanks for your reply. I like your suggestion. We want to address this issue up front and be as reasonable as possible. As homeowners we warned the prior Board that this would happen. They have now set a precedent that will have lasting repercussions.
PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
JennN: You state..."The Board voted that no "for sale" signs would be permitted in any common area of the property or in windows in accordance with our Declaration." WHAT is in accordance with your declaration? IF your docs state no for sale signs, what was the vote between Board members for? And, if you are going to amend the docs, it requires a vote of percentage of membership to pass.

You need to post what your declaration states regarding for sale signs. Then, we can assist from there. It is needful to come up with a solution since this affects all present residents, and a way of communicating that a home is for sale is warranted.

JennN (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Hi PaulM: Our Declaration states "No sign of any kind shall be displayed to the public view on or from any Unit, Limited Common Element or Common Element without prior consent of the Board. Advertising shall not be permitted from any Unit or on any Common Elements or Limited Common Element, provided that the Board may erect, on the Common Elements, a master directory listing Units that are for sale or lease."

It then goes on to say that the Declarant may post a sign advertising sale of units. We are under full homeowner control for about a year now and we removed the Declarants sign a year ago. Our Rules and Regulations go on to discuss open houses and that no signage shall be allowed in Common Elements or in windows.

The first homeowner originally had a sign which was large enough to advertise 20 acres for sale. We are a townhome community with three level townhomes in a upscale area with 66 units. The Board asked homeonwer input at a meeting to determine if our community should erect a master directory. The homeonwers and Board decided against wanting one erected on the property and instead voted no signage of any kind shall be allowed.

If we adhere to our Declaration, no signage should be allowed and realtors and potential buyers still have access to the homes which are for sale. We live on a private road and do not get driveby traffic which might assist in selling a home.

The general consensus (and it was a unanimous vote against signage) which was supported by residents in our community who have been real estate agents, is that most people do their home sale search online. The address of each of these units is posted on the realtor's website. Each of our units has a clearly marked address on a front porch post and each unit has a keybox hanging from the front doorknob.

So do we honor the unofficially changed decision or do we revert to the original vote that no signage should be permitted?
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
JennN - I'm not sure which Board (yours or the previous one) gave prior consent to the owner allowing a small sign. Another home has followed suit and displayed the same sign. Not to be controversial but what did your or the previous Board think was going to happen, and what exactly is the complaint? That the second owner that did the same as the one permitted to display the sign didn't seek prior consent? Okay that's understandable. But the second owner displaying the sign without approval most likely will not be the last.

I'm not sure why the previous Board took a vote on the signs in the first place. I doubt they have the vested power to change the Declaration without a community vote, right? Since they weren't changing anything the vote seems to be a meaningless dog and pony show.

The precedent has been set that a small sign was permitted. Personally I think an association that is not gated should permit the small for sale sign on the inside window of the unit. And that a gated or non-gated association should develop an agreeable method to have a homes for sale, or open house sign for certain hours on the day of the open house. Your Declaration provides the Board the discretion to give consent. Do what makes the majority of owners happy.
JennN (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Do what makes the majority of owners happy.

This is exactly what the prior Board did the first time and voted to not allow any signs. I am one of the three members of the new Board. The other homeowners overwhelmingly agreed that no signs should be allowed. They didn't want big for sale signs or small for sale signs and they didn't want a Directory.

The original vote was done because the homeowner asked the Board for consent to allow a sign as the Declaration says no signs withough prior consent. So they voted and agreed they would not give consent for a sign. Then two of the three Board members met privately with the homeowner to hear suggestions for a compromise and then decided to allow the sign.

A change in the Declaration requires a majority vote of the association. The prior Board didn't change the Declaration, but simply voted one to disallow the sign then a second time to allow the sign. There are minutes of the first decision, there are no minutes of the second decision. Homeowners were upset that they were asked their opinion on the matter in an open meeting and the Board agreed with them to their face. Then the Board decided in a private meeting to change their minds.

An additional piece of information, the first homeowner who was permitted to have the sign is friends with one of the prior Board members and happens to live across the street. The new homeonwer likely isn't aware of any of this because they have never attended a Board meeting.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Jenn,
One of the things that I hate the most about some documents is exactly what you have stated in yours.

""No sign of any kind shall be displayed to the public view on or from any Unit, Limited Common Element or Common Elements ---*WITHOUT PRIOR CONSENT FROM THE BOARD****
Those words come back to bite following Boards all of the time and I always wonder if the lawyer who wrote them wants to stick around to see who gets consent and who doesn't.

It is seeming that the original Board member's friend was allowed to post the sign or so they say but was there written permission? Probably not. I would go strictly by the wording of the paragraph and not allow signs. Then the next time there is any amendments up for changing, rewrite that one to be clearer to either NO signs or signs allowed. Some things just need to be yes or no issues.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
JenN - Going forward the existing Board has the power to make the decision to permit, or not permit the for sale signs. Has the owner that was granted approval, after approval was 1st denied, requested your Board's approval? Shouldn't the owner be required to do so? Seems a letter needs to be sent to all owners reminding them that your Board does not grant the approval to place signs, and that procedurally anyone wishing to do so must request approval in writing none the same.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Gerald and Jenn,
As long as the precedence has been already established that a member was "supposidly" granted permission to place a sign, then until you rewrite that particular rule or covenant, I agree with Gerald, to allow signs ONLY WITH WRITTEN BOARD APPROVAL. The Board must set a standard for the signs as to size, content, time allowances and other restrictions and stick to those restrictions. That is basically what your covenant allows. Make sure that all of the membership knows what the allowances are for the signs by letter or posting.
JennN (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Here is the complexity, the prior homeowners did not obtain written approval. It was like a handshake amongst friends.

The prior Treasurer said to me in a phone conversation, "Jenn, I understand in your line of work you document everything, but that's not the way I work. I prefer just to have a phone conversation and hash things out." I am a CPA and yes, I document everything.

Unfortunately now our new Board has been put in a position of enforcing things or reversing decisions because some of the prior Board took it upon themselves to run our HOA and our community like a frat house. Let me take that back, I think frat houses are more organized and professional than our HOA has been over the past year.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Does it appear to anyone else that the Boards are the one's that created the situation. If so, then it is the Boards responsibility to rectify it. I would not agreed to anything that says No signs allowed except by Board Approval. That is why they have the problem.

I would suggest the Board write up a clarifing statement. Outlaw all signs.
Then insert the statement into the governing documents. I suspect it could be a resolution by the Board effective immediately and enforced until an amendment can be voted it. I feel the board must backitrack publicaly and stop the whole mess.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
JennN - The prior Treasurer did not say anything out of line because your own Declaration requires consent of the Board, and unfortunately doesn't state that written consent is required.

One option is to send a letter to all owners advising them it has come to the attention of the current Board that there was a verbal agreement between the previous Board and a homeowner that was issued subsequent to, and contrary to that Board's public ruling to uphold the Declaration prohibiting the display of for sale signs. The existing Board is inclined to uphold the Declaration and prohibit the display of signs, but at the very least, the owners wishing to display a sign must according to the Declaration seek Board approval first. Enclosed is a brief Q & A pertaining to the display of signs. Please use the self-addressed postage envelope and kindly return it to the Board to determine if the matter will be placed on the agenda for the entire community to once again discuss.

I would seek a way to overrule the previous Board's decision, uphold the Declaration, and seek the written input from all owners for forward movement. In other words, try to make the majority happy.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
I believe it's the Declaration as written that has permitted the previous Board to get away with providing consent. The owners don't have a choice, they are stuck with a Declaration that says no signs allowed except by Board consent. I don't believe the Board should insert anything into the Declaration or governing documents, that would mean basically a unilateral amendment. Nor do I believe they have the power to do this. I believe that should come from the owners to request.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
The Board needs to write a policy for guidelines for signage: size, placement, time frame, etc. - - - since the Declarations say that persons posting signage must approach the Board for prior consent BEFORE is goes up.

It does NOT say that there can be NO signs, it does NOT say the Board approves the signs, it simply says that the Board must give the OK (consent)prior to the sign getting posted OR the Board can erect a generic sign, listing ALL the units up for sale or lease.

The Board might as well get some structure to this process, since it is an on-going issue.

Quote from original poster:
"No sign of any kind shall be displayed to the public view on or from any Unit, Limited Common Element or Common Element without prior consent of the Board. Advertising shall not be permitted from any Unit or on any Common Elements or Limited Common Element, provided that the Board may erect, on the Common Elements, a master directory listing Units that are for sale or lease."

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
SusanW1 - Without the consent of the Board there can be no signs.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
On what basis would the Board deny the sign??!!!

That's why I said they MUST have a written policy. If it ain't in writing, it doesn't exist - and they can't NOT consent.

It says that signs need consent, not that there can NOT be signs.

Talk about a lawsuit brewing . . . .

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
SusanW1 -

On the basis that the owner didn't get consent, in JenN1's case, the second owner that displayed the sign did not get consent. That should be an automatic removal letter.

On the basis that as JenN1 posted, in her association the Board asked homeowner input at a meeting to determine if their community should erect a master directory. The homeowners and Board decided against wanting one erected on the property and instead voted no signage of any kind shall be allowed.

Remember, JenN's Declaration states advertising shall not be permitted from any Unit or on any Common Elements or Limited Common Element, provided that the Board may erect, on the Common Elements, a master directory listing Units that are for sale or lease."

In my HOA the Declaration states no signs of any kind can be displayed. Hasn't been a lawsuit yet. Just a general understanding that there needs to a compromise that is more reasonable, but one has not been voted into effect by the owners.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
"No sign of any kind shall be displayed to the public view on or from any Unit, Limited Common Element or Common Element without prior consent of the Board.
THIS SAYS THAT PRIOR TO DISPLAYING, GET CONSENT FROM THE BOARD. THEY CAN'T DECLINE "CONSENT" UNLESS THEY HAVE A REASON. HOW IS THAT DETERMINED IF THEY HAVE NO WRITTEN PROCEDURES OR GUIDELINE?

"Advertising shall not be permitted from any Unit or on any Common Elements or Limited Common Element, provided that the Board may erect, on the Common Elements, a master directory listing Units that are for sale or lease."

THIS SAYS THAT THERE IS NO ADVERTISING, ONLY IF (PROVIDED THAT) THE BOARD PUT UP A SIGN.(Which you said they did not want to do)

The best thing would be for this Board to erect a master directory sign. That would stop ALL signage, except at the common elements. It could be done tastefully and subtlely.

GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
SusanW1 - I'm not advocating the illogical aspect of the matter, I do however recognize the need to concede that other associations decide what is right for them.

JenN's Board can decline consent based upon the fact that the owners don't want it. Advertising shall (must) not be permitted provided that the Board MAY erect, not shall or must erect.

JenN1 posted, in her association the Board asked homeowner input at a meeting to determine if their community should erect a master directory. The homeowners and Board decided against wanting one erected on the property and instead voted no signage of any kind shall be allowed.

My opinion is the best thing the Board could do is poll the community again, get their input and then proceed or not.
JennN (Washington)
Posts: 8
Posted:
GeraldT4, I like what you have to say.

We read our Declaration as no signs are allowed, without prior consent. That is to say that if someone doesn't ask for consent, there are no signs allowed. The general homeowners were polled at the prior meeting and decided against all signs, including a tastefully erected master directory.

Our Declaration also states that "No waiver by the Board of any requirement shall be effective unless expressed in writing and signed for the Board." The Board didn't document anything regarding their 2nd decision in writing. They didn't document the decision in any subsequent meeting minutes as also required by our Bylaws. The homeonwer received no written communication stating they could have the sign.

If decisions such as this are not in writing, it opens the door for ANY homeowner to say "the prior Board verbally granted me permission." This is not the way to conduct business and an HOA IS a business.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
JennN,
I suspect our friend Susan has had some prior experience with "this consent of the Board" phase. I believe she knows what she is talking about and knows the legal meaning of what is desribed in this instance. In fact if I even have to formulate a requirement, rule or amendment, I think I will stay far away from using "consent" in any context. I agree your association may want to outlaw all signs, and has a right to do this, and it should be in writing. I also agree Susan raises a valid point as to what is written and what the associations desires. If I understand right, it is not sufficient for the association to want to do something if the language doesn't support the intent.

Then again, I may not understand the problem correctly, and am off base, but I learned an important point from Susan, even if it can be argued, the intent of the board or association

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