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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Most of you are likely aware that our governing documents are a complete mess. They were obviously written by individuals who did not understand how Associations run, legalize and probably never read the applicable corporation law.

The Bylaws are silent on Directors.
No mention of them whatsoever.

I just took another look at are Bylaws and discovered this little legalize issue:

As a reminder, our Bylaws do have members elect officers.

That procedure is "All Officers shall be chosen annually by the majority vote of the members."

Did you catch the phrase "of the members"?

The Bylaws did not say a majority vote of the members at a meeting.
They said majority vote of the members.

My Association, that can not make a quorum at meetings because it is set too high, requires each officer to receive a majority of all possible association votes (42 out of 83 lots).
In the past 19 years, it appears that officers were properly elected once (receiving 42 or more votes).

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271
Posted:
so basically everything your HOA has done is unlawful per the bylaws and you are powerless to carry anything out because no officer was elected properly?

Money will easily solve this. Tell people you will give them $100 credit if they vote. You'll still need to send about 2 emails, 2 text messages, 2 letters and the day before the ballot is due post last minute reminders to vote. various online voting sites do this automatically for you. one that rhymes with election "muddy" does this automatically. once you have people's emails and phone numbers it makes future elections go so much easier too. Change anything that requires over a majority to a simple majority of residnet members (rentals don't count towards majority) and cut quorum to 10% with a provision to cut it in half till quorum is met.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Jack,

Actually, records indicate that the current board was properly elected in accordance with the badly written Bylaws.
Last year, we had a quorum, so we were able to conduct business and have a vote.
The current board received 42 votes or more for their officer position.

The way the Bylaws are written (along with my interpretation of that sentence)is:

Quorum = 56 (2/3 of 83 lots)
Director = plurality of the votes
Officer = 42 votes or more

Regarding your suggestion of paying members to attend and vote: Our assessment is $50 per year.
JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
Tim I feel your pain "governing documents are a complete mess." My HOA is paddeling the same boat. I want to discuss moving forward with possible RESTATEMENT (not amendments) with my 2 new BODs. I hope to have educational discussions withnew Directors without violating any Davis Stirling (CA). We officially meet every 2 months, with Annual elections (3). This process will take ALL THE KINGS HORSES AND ALL THE KINGS MEN.....so delay, delay is BS! Thoughts on "discussion without decision" for Board?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/03/2025 4:33 AM
Most of you are likely aware that our governing documents are a complete mess. They were obviously written by individuals who did not understand how Associations run, legalize and probably never read the applicable corporation law.

The Bylaws are silent on Directors.
No mention of them whatsoever.

I just took another look at are Bylaws and discovered this little legalize issue:

As a reminder, our Bylaws do have members elect officers.
Observations --

-- Nowhere do your bylaws refer to a "board."

-- Your bylaws do give the responsibilities for the officers (president, VP, secretary, treasurer). The responsibilities are quite specific.

-- The bylaws were signed in [redacted for privacy reasons]. Less than a month later, the HOA was also incorporated and so became subject to Tennessee's nonprofit corporation statute sections.

-- The statute and bylaws are to be read so as to have harmony, if at all possible.

-- The statute is clear that the HOA corporation must have a board; the board must be elected annually; and the board manages the affairs of the corporation. The statute also speaks a bit to board meetings.

-- The statute says the board may remove officers at any time. When officer vacancies arise, the statute is not as clear re appointing officers mid-term. At the same time, the bylaws are clear that officers are elected only annually. This is a conflict of sorts. Do what is reasonable and fair. Like just having the board appoint officers mid-term.

-- I believe the statute and bylaws are about 99% harmonious.

-- Regarding the election (as given in the bylaws) of officers: I would not call anything that happened with improperly elected officers unlawful. If you need elaboration, ask. Part of my answer will speak to "course of conduct" and "acquiescence" (no one objected at the time). These translate to there being nothing to do but go forward.

-- Yes, the not-so-great bylaws make the board's job difficult. Mostly because few of the owners will understand the law here. This is the biggest problem by far, especially with a rabble-rouser who does not study.

-- If a majority of members does not elect an officer, then the board should step in and just appoint the officers. If the board is reasonable in appointing officers, and no one objects, great.

-- What are your concerns at this point?

-- I admit I would be disgusted with the situation. I would try to remember to just do the best I can, given the bylaws and the membership make-up.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JackieB4 on 08/03/2025 7:15 AM
I want to discuss moving forward with possible RESTATEMENT (not amendments) with my 2 new BODs. I hope to have educational discussions withnew Directors without violating any Davis Stirling (CA). We officially meet every 2 months, with Annual elections (3). This process will take ALL THE KINGS HORSES AND ALL THE KINGS MEN.....so delay, delay is BS! Thoughts on "discussion without decision" for Board?
Can you start a new thread on this?

The D-S statute is clear that anytime a quorum of directors gathers to "hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business that is within the authority of the board," a board meeting occurs, and per California statute, proper notice and more must be given to owners. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/O/Open-Meetings-Act.

I would say that restatement is not within the authority of the board. It is within the authority of the owners.

Certain huge decisions related to restatement may be within the authority of the board and so require a properly noticed board meeting. For example, suppose the board (wisely) wants to discuss hiring an attorney to draft a restatement and/or maybe address owners on this important subject. This discussion (of whether to hire an attorney) should occur at a properly noticed board meeting.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 08/03/2025 8:44 AM

-- What are your concerns at this point?

To be honest, I don't think I have a concern except how to sell the need for changes to a membership divided on the need for change.

I did miss the fact that the Bylaws were written and adopted by the board prior to being incorporated.
Thank you for pointing that out. It does change my perception a bit toward those that wrote them.

I guess I'm just flabbergasted at the badly written document.
Seems I find something new that should be clarified with each reading.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
You've probably mentioned this is the past, but has an HOA attorney ever looked at your governing docs and given an opinion about any unusual risks created by these poorly written documents? By risks I mean actual legal issues as well as barriers to resolving the them.
JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
ElleN, D-S says "Email communications between board members are allowed, even if they discuss association business....where no action is taken....and discuss matters that may appear before the board." Our 40 year old documents are useless. They need RESTATING, along with a few updates. I'm not suggesting bypassing community input, nor avoiding 100% transparency. It's an overwheming event with many months of needed preparation and member education. We hold annual elections, so any delay could put this expensive $$$ task on the lap of new directors and go full circle, starting all over with input and education.
JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 08/03/2025 11:44 AM
You've probably mentioned this is the past, but has an HOA attorney ever looked at your governing docs and given an opinion about any unusual risks created by these poorly written documents? By risks I mean actual legal issues as well as barriers to resolving the them.

Cathy, Yes, our legal has responded with an official quote of various options plus cost, $8,000.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JackieB4 on 08/03/2025 11:53 AM
ElleN, D-S says "Email communications between board members are allowed, even if they discuss association business....where no action is taken....and discuss matters that may appear before the board."
I agree. The 2023 appeals court said email communications where no action (vote) is taken do not qualify as a board meeting.

Subsequently the Ca Supreme Court said fine, and the legislators said fine.

The interested reader should see https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Email-Between-Directors
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335
Posted:
[Har dee har. For another nonprofit adventure, I agreed to carry much of the heavy lifting as long as a few others would do the other heavy lifting. The others benefit greatly from what I offered. Silence. Ha ha.]

Givers. Takers.

Most of the world are takers.
JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/03/2025 7:06 AM

Regarding your suggestion of paying members to attend and vote: Our assessment is $50 per year.

My point is make it about their money
give them 2 months to vote
"harrass" them till they vote
multiple emails, texts, mailings, door knockings, etc

works every year for us.

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