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NoraM (Michigan)
Posts: 6
Posted:
All,

I was referred to this site by our old CAM and my former HOA.

We recently moved to a new community. It is small, old and very outdated, and no management company. There are some 40 lots, around 8 homes but recently growing. It is 22 years old and the developer is the president. A majority of the lots were never for sale and now he is selling a few per year, and we have approvals for 6 new home builds this year.

I am retired and was elected VP. I am studying Roberts Rules and considering getting my CAM license. So I am very new to this but have been a resident in a large HOA for many years and assisted my elderly parents with their HOA. So I have been through, and seen some crazy stuff

We have elected a new board consisting of the developer/president, myself, a very sharp secretary and a treasurer from the legacy regime. We have a new Bylaws committee and an a new ACC committee. The bylaws committee act in an advisory capacity only and can recommend changes. The ACC committee has authority for approvals, but require the presidents approval as well. The former member of the ACC committee kind of ran things for several years, and interpreted the rules to favor his bias and was known to be intimidating, and a bully. He has stepped down.

There are many changes that we are discussing and it is baby steps for now.

We would like to make changes to the bylaws and CC&Rs and bring the community up to date. Example, is we have no cable or internet as the community is all private roads and it is cost prohibitive to run fiber. The declarations allow DSL and the only roof mount satellite service is Dish TV. Many of us have Starlink which works great. But there have been continuous threats of fines because it is not approved in the Declarations. note: these are 1.5 - 2 acre wooded lots and most homes are not visible from the road, but it is a legally binding document so I get that. My view is that rules that are enforced, only because they are enforceable, and do not add value to the community need to be changed.

My initial questions:

1. the governing documents. They are a mess. There is not a bylaws section and a declarations section. they overlap and sometimes are intermingled and mixed in the same sections.

They are original documents from 22 years ago. There are only a few hard copy documents around. The rest are very poorly scanned documents, that are missing complete sections. We can pay a service to OCR scan the originals to a Word doc, but they only guarantee 90% accuracy, so there would be post work and editing required. For much less cost, we can have a service re-create the document in Word, and I can generate a searchable PDF.

So first question, and I understand you are not legal counsel, but may have seen this before. if we re-created the docs, would that require legal review and re-registering with the county?

2. Voting

We have no website, or electronic voting system in place. The last attempted change was via snail mail and we suspect a reason our problem child stepped down. The integrity of the majority vote was suspect and there was no audit process. And back to question 1, addendums and amendments are easier if you have electronic files to work with and made accessible via a website.

I am all about electric voting and it is legally recognized on our state. It is easily audited and verified and can be integrated into a HOA website. We utilized it in our old community.

We used US postal service with my parents HOA. Its my understanding that the HOA's CPA did the audit for them. There were 3 choices if I recall. Yes, No, and Abstain. I questioned "abstain" and it was used to achieve a majority vote, so if it was not important to a member, you could abstain. I recall votes were sent registered mail.

is UP postal service still the most used form of voting today?? What are processes most used and example ballots?

So your feedback and experience is most welcome and valued

NM

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NoraM on 04/29/2025 4:55 PM

1. the governing documents. They are a mess. There is not a bylaws section and a declarations section. they overlap and sometimes are intermingled and mixed in the same sections.

They are original documents from 22 years ago. There are only a few hard copy documents around. The rest are very poorly scanned documents, that are missing complete sections. We can pay a service to OCR scan the originals to a Word doc, but they only guarantee 90% accuracy, so there would be post work and editing required. For much less cost, we can have a service re-create the document in Word, and I can generate a searchable PDF.

So first question, and I understand you are not legal counsel, but may have seen this before. if we re-created the docs, would that require legal review and re-registering with the county?

If these are covenants, then please quote the section of this document that states how amendments are done.

Chances are a vote of the owners would be required to "restate" the covenants.

You have these "governing documents" in front of you. Readers here do not. Readers are stuck with guessing what is going on with your documents. Ideally you could redact identifying information and post at least the first few pages of these "governing documents" that you say mix covenants and bylaws.

I suggest: Stop reading Robert's Rules and instead start studying the Michigan Nonprofit Corporation Act.

This is a corporation, isn't it?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 04/29/2025 5:38 PM
Chances are a vote of the owners would be required to "restate" the covenants.
Subsequently the covenants would have to be recorded with the county.

If you want more specific help, create an email addie that you can delete in a few months, and post the email addie. I will email you and request a scanned copy of whatever you have. I will give my opinion.

I am not a lawyer. I am just a volunteer with a lot of experience with HOA/COA legalities.
JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271
Posted:
you don't need to hire a lawery to get yoru docs retyped.
electronic voting is more popular because its faster and requires less volunteer time and is often cheaper like $30/vote if you set it up
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:

First, I would check with the County and obtain any documents they have recorded.
The CC&Rs would definitly be recorded.
The Bylaws may or may not be recorded.

Second, I would check with the Michigan Licensing and Regulatory Affairs to see if your Association is incorporated, if it is - the status of the corporation and, perhaps, obtain a copy of the Articles of Incorporation.

Quote:
Posted By NoraM on 04/29/2025 4:55 PM

My initial questions:

1. the governing documents. They are a mess. There is not a bylaws section and a declarations section. they overlap and sometimes are intermingled and mixed in the same sections.

They are original documents from 22 years ago. There are only a few hard copy documents around. The rest are very poorly scanned documents, that are missing complete sections. We can pay a service to OCR scan the originals to a Word doc, but they only guarantee 90% accuracy, so there would be post work and editing required. For much less cost, we can have a service re-create the document in Word, and I can generate a searchable PDF.

So first question, and I understand you are not legal counsel, but may have seen this before. if we re-created the docs, would that require legal review and re-registering with the county?


Once you check with the county, you may have a complete readable set of documents.
Costs would be your time and likely around $20

If you recreate the documents into a different format exactly as written, then you do not need a legal review.
If you leave anything off, specify at the top that this is a copy of what is on file with the county, specify book and page number, with signatures removed for publishing purposes

If you change the documents, you must do so according to the amendment section of those documents. Those should have a legal review and be recorded.

Why you would pay a company to transcribe the document into a different format I simply can't understand. Sit down with the documents a word processor and start typing. Perhaps a page a night. Less expensive and you know the quality of the work.

Quote:
Posted By NoraM on 04/29/2025 4:55 PM

2. Voting

We have no website, or electronic voting system in place. The last attempted change was via snail mail and we suspect a reason our problem child stepped down. The integrity of the majority vote was suspect and there was no audit process. And back to question 1, addendums and amendments are easier if you have electronic files to work with and made accessible via a website.

I am all about electric voting and it is legally recognized on our state. It is easily audited and verified and can be integrated into a HOA website. We utilized it in our old community.

We used US postal service with my parents HOA. Its my understanding that the HOA's CPA did the audit for them. There were 3 choices if I recall. Yes, No, and Abstain. I questioned "abstain" and it was used to achieve a majority vote, so if it was not important to a member, you could abstain. I recall votes were sent registered mail.

is UP postal service still the most used form of voting today?? What are processes most used and example ballots?

So your feedback and experience is most welcome and valued

NM

Ballots should include the exact wording of each change.

Check the applicable corporate statutes (expecting that you are incorporated) along with the governing documents to see if the votes must be done at a meeting. If a meeting is required, then use proxies (type up like a ballot but identified as a directed proxy).

If you try to vote without a meeting, there may be different requirements - perhaps unanimous agreement - perhaps notarized signatures at indicating agreement to the change (as is done in my State).

As you can see, a lot of what you are asking will depend on if you are incorporated or not, the applicable laws and the wording in your actual documents.
NoraM (Michigan)
Posts: 6
Posted:
it is a site condominium. not sure why it was created like that, over 20 years ago. The original developer created the project, he passed and his son is now president and not very involved in day to day...

also my comment on Dish is incorrect. evidently that was an interpretation of the previous ACC committee. the verbiage is 'only sat dishes of 18" or less in diameter may be installed on a lot, and must be inconspicuous. all must be approved but the committee...

so evidently one homeowner with a starlink was targeted as it is roof mounted and you can see it in the winter... Other Starlink users were on notice.

Let me setup a temporary email. I am unable to redact as the scanned document is not editable and any conversion to word is about 40% complete and the rest unreadable garbage. the problem with the scanned document is that there are entire sections omitted from the original hard copy.

so chicken and egg. We really need a word or google doc version of the documents.

NoraM (Michigan)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank Tim,

Yes it is an LLC and I checked and it was registered with the county. I will check and see if we can get a clean copy

so paying for a service is likely a task for someone with good typing skills... the entire document is 180 pages so lots to type!

I did suspect if it were created exactly, then there would be no legal review. That is step one, to have a sound editable and searchable document.

I have been part of changes and amendments in the past, so I have a reasonable understanding and yes they have to be recorded/registered with the county. I do have some templates from my last HOA, and I am reviewing Michigan law now.

thank you. Step one is to have a good document source, as I stated baby steps. Our last HOA and my Parents had 2 separate documents. One was Bylaws and one was Declarations or CC&Rs. that made things a bit easier navigating.

Thank you and more to come, but this is a good start
NoraM (Michigan)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thank you!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Regardless of what your documents specify, I refer you to the FCC OTARD ruling Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule. From that website:

As directed by Congress in Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, the Federal Communications Commission adopted the Over-the-Air Reception Devices (β€œOTARD”) rule concerning governmental and nongovernmental restrictions on viewers' ability to receive video programming signals from direct broadcast satellites ("DBS"), broadband radio service providers (formerly multichannel multipoint distribution service or MMDS), and television broadcast stations ("TVBS").

The rule (47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000) took effect in October 1996. The Commission has modified the rule three times since then. The rule prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming and certain antennas used to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals. The rule applies to certain antennas, including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, wireless cable, and certain fixed wireless antennas. The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.

Basically, the Association can not restrict locations for antennas used for Satellite, Wireless or Television reception nor may they make the process of installing one difficult.
NoraM (Michigan)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Thanks Tim,

Good information. Pre high speed internet services, our old HOA had restrictions for the type of dish, as one owner placed a huge sat dish in his back yard and was visible from the other neighbors. He also started to install a ham radio tower that was 60' tall... this was many years ago, but the HOA won on that.

but this is very good content.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
My understanding is that the OTARD rule does not apply to Ham radio antennas.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NoraM on 04/30/2025 4:58 AM
it is a site condominium.
If the governing documents say it is a condominium subject to the Michigan Condominium Act, then I think this is a good thing.

From time to time nationwide, single family home subdivisions do have declarations that subject the subdivision (HOA) to the state's condominium act.

At least skim this statute here: https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-act-59-of-1978.pdf

Michigan does not have a HOA statute that pertains to a subdivision of single family homes.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
How did a developer maintain control for 22 years?
NoraM (Michigan)
Posts: 6
Posted:
not sure... the development started with lots only. a few were sold and built on. There were 3 homes for around 10 years or so, I am told.

More lots sold over the past few years, but he only listed about 1-2 lots per year. He never had builders who purchased and built, they were custom homes.

Our old sub, had 3 builders and it was a race to completed the sub, at which point the develpper turned it over to the association and property management company.

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