Adding a fine for Fireworks

Started by MarkM19 • 27 replies • 248 views

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MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Hey All,
We have had a recent rise in Fireworks issues in our 1450+ SFH development. Our current fine structure allows for the infractions to be cured when warnings are issued. Obviously, Fireworks are only done 2 times a year. One of our board members has been trying to get a uncurable fine structure set up for Fireworks with a hefty fine for the first offense. Well after a fire in a home that was caused by the owner who disposed of the fireworks improperly and a few other close calls the board voted 4 to approve the fines and 1 person who abstained. We have gotten some push back from one of the people in attendance after the meeting wondering if this should have gone out for a vote of the community and a super majority vote to pass.

We have talked to our attorney who prepared a document that with be certified with the county once we make some minor changes. We want to make sure that the only way a fine will be issued is if we have undeniable video proof of the home doing the fireworks.

Has anyone done this in the past with any success or failures? We are outside of the City limits and Fireworks are legal in the county, but our Bylaws and DADS say no Fireworks.

I am the president of the HOA and voted against this motion a couple of years ago when it was first on our agenda. This time I am in support of it with video proof and not random complaints.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 03/29/2025 7:06 PM
Hey All,
We have had a recent rise in Fireworks issues in our 1450+ SFH development. Our current fine structure allows for the infractions to be cured when warnings are issued. Obviously, Fireworks are only done 2 times a year. One of our board members has been trying to get a uncurable fine structure set up for Fireworks with a hefty fine for the first offense. Well after a fire in a home that was caused by the owner who disposed of the fireworks improperly and a few other close calls the board voted 4 to approve the fines and 1 person who abstained. We have gotten some push back from one of the people in attendance after the meeting wondering if this should have gone out for a vote of the community and a super majority vote to pass.

We have talked to our attorney who prepared a document that with be certified with the county once we make some minor changes. We want to make sure that the only way a fine will be issued is if we have undeniable video proof of the home doing the fireworks.

Has anyone done this in the past with any success or failures? We are outside of the City limits and Fireworks are legal in the county, but our Bylaws and DADS say no Fireworks.

I am the president of the HOA and voted against this motion a couple of years ago when it was first on our agenda. This time I am in support of it with video proof and not random complaints.

You are proposing evidence required to issue a HOA fine exceed evidence required for a capitol murder conviction. Is that logical?

The board is well within the reasonableness test for this regulation ( public safety) and it appears the board in your HOA board is authorized to adopt regulations and fines. I would not submit this to the owners for a vote. This isn’t a fine for mail box height.

Homeowners have due process rights and may appeal a fine levied by the board. At that time the board could modify the sanction to a reduced fine or a warning or dismissal if evidence was lacking.

I would plan on sending a reminder of this regulation and the fine via email periodically.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

My opinion:

As you say, it's only twice a year.
You may get backlash or bad press saying HOA bans fireworks on 4th of July.

Let the county/city handle the fireworks complaints.
Around those times, tell the membership that any complaints about fire works should be made to local authorities and not the hoa.
Specify that this is because local authorities can act far quicker than the Association can.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

DeanJ,
The reason why definitive proof is needed is we have a few SM warriors who complain about everything, and one specifically hates her backdoor neighbor. She reports him every time his dog barks after dark. She does not call the police and wants the board to be her police. I can guarantee this person would report her neighbor on July 5th this year. We were asked to provide security many times and we have 55 streets in our HOA and miles of roadways. This is not going to happen. We feel that if someone wants to take video to report a owner they will record it and send it to the board. No evidence no fine.

John
We are in what's called the ETJ (Extended Territorial Jurisdiction) of our county. We get very slow response to calls that are non-emergencies and let's face it a call saying fireworks are going off near me is not a emergency to Law Enforcment on these Holidays.

The reason why we were forced to act is a home burned and very easily could have caught the neighbor's home on fire. In another case another person's truck caught on fire from falling embers causing 10K in damage.

As I mentioned in our meeting no one moves into an HOA hoping the board creates new rules and fines. We are hoping this will be a deterrent.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Mark,

What I am hearing is a president who isn’t in favor of this regulation, got out voted and is doing everything he can to see it is adopted in a form it is unlikely to ever be enforced.

Fireworks are a bit different than a barking dog because shooting fireworks typically leaves physical evidence in the form of paper waste - than can be photographed by a board member properly investigating the complaint.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 03/30/2025 5:56 AM
My opinion:

As you say, it's only twice a year.
You may get backlash or bad press saying HOA bans fireworks on 4th of July.

Let the county/city handle the fireworks complaints.
Around those times, tell the membership that any complaints about fire works should be made to local authorities and not the hoa.
Specify that this is because local authorities can act far quicker than the Association can.

Good advice.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

“ We are outside of the City limits and Fireworks are legal in the county,….”

Enforce what?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 03/29/2025 7:06 PM
our Bylaws and DADS say no Fireworks.

Is "DADS" the same as covenants?

If so, I 100% support the fine with video evidence.

If not, I need more information.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Fireworks are against your rules and now your HOA will fine someone who breaks that rule. I agree a fine is entirely appropriate and no owner vote is needed.

I assume your HOA requires evidence for other violations, so requiring evidence is consistent with your other violations.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Dean,

Yep, I missed that. Unfortunately, now they have to enforce.

In this situation, I would insist on documentation as well - otherwise it's a case of I say, you say.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

EllN,
Yes, our DADS are the covenants. I was hoping you would respond because I respect your opinion very much. Thanks

Dean,
I actually voted in favor of this motion this time. What I am trying to avoid is people randomly reporting neighbors without evidence and expecting the board to fine them $2500 without enough evidence to support it. We do not want to have any legal battles over the (He said She Said) situations and want to leave it to the worst-case abuse of the infractions. Our current Bylaws state you cannot shoot Fireworks in our HOA, but the only fine is after 2 warnings is $25.00. Several of our owners must spend thousands of dollars on fireworks based on what goes up in the air.

Thanks for the feedback.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 03/30/2025 11:10 AM
EllN,
Yes, our DADS are the covenants. I was hoping you would respond because I respect your opinion very much. Thanks

Dean,
I actually voted in favor of this motion this time. What I am trying to avoid is people randomly reporting neighbors without evidence and expecting the board to fine them $2500 without enough evidence to support it. We do not want to have any legal battles over the (He said She Said) situations and want to leave it to the worst-case abuse of the infractions. Our current Bylaws state you cannot shoot Fireworks in our HOA, but the only fine is after 2 warnings is $25.00. Several of our owners must spend thousands of dollars on fireworks based on what goes up in the air.

Thanks for the feedback.

Oh yea, you are asking for a civil trial and a bunch of bad press.

Your issue is the $2,500 fine and I don’t believe a judge in a civil trial would find that amount reasonable even if the evidence was film from a local TV station. The reason is criminal penalties for shooting fire works is rarely over $500 in jurisdictions where illegal.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Dean I agree the number is very high. The analogy is if a parking ticket is $10.00 and the parking garage it $25.00 many may just pay the ticket.

I would also say that when the accused is presented with the video, and the board has to impose the fine it could be reduced based on the data at hand. I do get your point it seems excessive. I personally hope we never get anyone in the Executive session.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I agree that $2,500 does not seem "reasonable." What violators "spent" on thier fireworks doesn't matter.

I'm also surprized this is in your Bylaws????? But that the ability to fine is in your covenants I,s a good thing.

Maybe an analogy: Our board recently raised the fine for anyone using any smoking materials anywhere at our HOA including inside of condo units from $100 to $300. The sole reason is a s deterrent. Trouble is many units' balconies face the street and not our interior. So it's often very hard to provide evidence of a violation.

But evidence of fireworks should be easy!!

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334

Posted:

-- I hope the HOA is a bit emphatic about owners having to present video evidence. The latter requirement will tend to keep both sides (pro-fireworks and anti-fireworks) on their toes. In this day and age where anyone with a smart phone can be a film producer, I like it.

-- I am fine with a fine of $2500. Why? With all the fires occurring in general, the safety issue here is huge. I also feel the liability issue is huge. If I were a plaintiff's lawyer; the HOA did not make a reasonable effort to enforce its fireworks covenant; and a fire erupts, then I would sure be looking for HOA deep pockets (read: HOA insurer payout). This might even be worth mentioning as the reason for the size of the fine.

-- MarkM19, and I have long admired your many years leading Boards and HOAs in two states IIRC.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334

Posted:

I forgot to add this:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 03/29/2025 7:06 PM
We have gotten some push back from one of the people in attendance after the meeting wondering if this should have gone out for a vote of the community and a super majority vote to pass.

As long as your HOA's dedicatory instruments (DADS?) allows fines, no vote of the owners is needed.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

Why are the city officials not handling this issue? If it is against the law to use fireworks in the city or the suburb, then the officials should handle this.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Michael,
We are in the Extended Territorial Jurisdiction ETJ. We are on the border of the city but get our services from the county. During busy Holidays all services are limited to much more important calls than someone make noise shooting Fireworks. The city has fireworks restrictions, and the county does not.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 03/31/2025 5:04 AM
Why are the city officials not handling this issue? If it is against the law to use fireworks in the city or the suburb, then the officials should handle this.

How large do you believe a local police department would have to be to handle 25% of all the illegal fireworks calls on the 4th of July?

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Hey everyone, I have also advised owners to handle approaching people who they feel are violating any rules with extreme care. Fireworks and Alcohol are usually done together which makes the events even more scary.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

I will add that:

1) The Association needs to reiterate the rule and fine around the time fire works are expected.
2) I believe that the first offense with evidence should still be a warning with future offenses being fined.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

Then all neighborhoods should implement this HOA plan into their own neighborhood and have people video tape neighbors shooting off fireworks, then bring the video to the police........

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Michael,
Seems aggressive but I will say that if damage is done to your home or property without video evidence who do you blame? Fireworks look beautiful when they are in the air, but the embers can be very dangerous when they land on other people's property.

In my case the person whose truck caught fore had to pay 10k to repair a brand-new pickup and they had doorbell video of it catch fire.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

We have a lot of rules at our condo high rise and many would be a warning -- "courtesy letter"-- first before a fine or demanding a cure.

But for a few, an immediate call to hearing is warranted. I'd say with a new, well-publicized fine, and the danger that fireworks pose, no "2nd chances" should be permitted.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Quote:

This is the best advice. It's twice a year. If it were regular in occurrence, of course, regulation is in order, but.......

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Kelly,
I had very similar feeling to you for years. I just tended to say let people celebrate and don't make new rules to stop a small percentage of owners from shooting fireworks. So, what's changed for me to change my opinion? The wildfires in LA were a small fire that ruined many communities. An owner in our community who didn't dispose of fireworks burned their own home. Our homes are on 50-to-60-foot side by side lots so if your home burns down I am going to be affected either by fire, smoke or water damage when the FD put out the fire. As stated by me earlier when embers come from the sky, they do not fall just above the shooter's homes.

As a board member and president, I do not want to have camera crews show up and ask how this happened and why did your HOA not follow the rules that say, "No Fireworks". The question I would ask people if you knew an Arson would be in your HOA only twice a year would that be, OK?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I completely agree with you, Mark.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Our fine for lighting off fireworks is $1000.00 and falls under the covenant for endangering the safety and welfare of the community.

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