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CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Good day, all!

The board in my community has an interesting decision to make. If we were still with our old law firm, I'd do a free 15-minute phone call to verify that we're thinking about this correctly. But we're not with them, and our current law firm would charge us.

So... the situation: We were approached by a local internet service company (Company A) that is upgrading their fiber optic lines in the area. Their current internet service still partly uses the old phone system wiring, and it can't keep up with the demand. The company offered to install all of the necessary fiber optic "stuff" in our community - for free. Their justification is that they will pick up enough customers in our community to justify the expense. I suspect that this is true. I've also heard scuttlebutt that the local cable company is also moving to fiber optics, and I suspect that Company A approached us to get in ahead of them.

Here's what I'm thinking about, and please tell me if you disagree with any of it.

* This internet service falls under the umbrella of the Telecommunications Act.

* Is this a material upgrade that requires homeowner approval? Or is it no different from any utility that has to upgrade its wiring (eg.: the electrical company installing smart meters on our buildings)?

* A number of residents currently get their internet service through Company A. They would have to upgrade their service if fiber optics is installed in the community. But it sounds like they will eventually have to find other options anyway as their current systems become increasingly unable to handle web traffic.

* Company A will install fiber optic cable in the ground and on the buildings. This will cause disruption and damage to the common elements, which they will repair on their own dime. I'm concerned for a number of reasons, one of which is a temperamental detention pond that's taken us ten years to get it working properly.

* What happens when the cable company also wants to install fiber optics in my area? Can we say yes to one company and no to the other? I think we can - but that means we're basically picking technology solutions for the community. (Thank heaven the local wireless providers offer internet connections via wireless.)

* Our community rules prohibit installation of satellite dishes on roofs and the sides of buildings. Fiber optic installation will include stuff on the buildings. The board has the authority to allow this - but are there any inconsistencies in this? So far we haven't had to deal with this question since internet connections come through builder-installed wiring in the community.

* I recently switched internet providers from the local cable company to Company A. The service is good, but the customer support/back office stuff is bad enough that I'm probably going to go back to the cable company. If Company A becomes our "preferred provider", I'm concerned that owners will hold us responsible for Company A's poor customer service even though we have nothing to do with it.

* One good thing: fiber optics may encourage our current satellite dish users to get rid of them, which will improve the looks of the community.

* If technology will force us to go this route eventually, it makes sense to do it now while Company A is motivated to keep us happy. But I fear that their motivation will end once we've signed the contract. I don't want to go with Company A just because they got to us first.

* We've asked our community manager if board members in the communities who've gone this route will talk to us about their experiences. We'd also like to visit the communities to see what the building installations look like.

Summary of concerns:

* Current customers of Company A will be forced to upgrade their service or find other options. Customers of other internet providers may feel forced to go with Company A, even though in theory it's their choice.

* Damage to common elements and inconvenience to residents.

* Company A's poor customer service. I won't vote against this just because of my experiences with them. But another board member and I did some research on the web, and there are many complaints that say the same thing. (Quote: "Company A has accomplished something that I didn't think was possible: they've made the cable company look good.")

I think this last one is my biggest concern. I don't trust them - incompetence and misbehavior boil down to the same thing for customers.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 02/15/2025 5:27 AM

* Is this a material upgrade that requires homeowner approval? Or is it no different from any utility that has to upgrade its wiring (eg.: the electrical company installing smart meters on our buildings)?
Can you speak to the following?

1.
What do your governing documents currently say about utilities, especially cable service?

2.
What cable, if any, was originally (at the time the buildings were built) installed to provide xyz cable service?

3.
What cable, if any, was added over the years by the COA?

4.
Whether the board's opinion (and or nationwide consensus) is that high speed internet service is a necessity, and so COAs are obliged to do what is necessary to the common areas to provide this service?
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
I live in a developed community HOA. Recently a company A ran fiber on the easements. They made such a mess that when we learned of company B’s plans to run fiber 90% of the owners signed a petition requesting company B not bring service to the community.

We had electric and irrigation lines damaged and the sod repair (which was company A’s) responsibility took months to get them to repair,

In another city, company A was given a stop order by the city because they were cutting natural gas lines.

If you are going to allow fiber optic, you want a contract with the company and you want your attorney involved with the process.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I agree with ElleN - it really depends on what your governing documents say about the services. For example, our community has always included cable and security system monitoring. About 7 years ago, the cable company offered a bulk rate on internet too and the board was able to add that on without a vote of the membership (slightly different than your situation because it didn't require additional installation). However, last year we were negotiating our contract with the big cable company and considered going with the fiber optic company. That would have entailed installation of fiber up to every home in the community. We could have done that without vote of the membership because we were replacing an existing service.

We are considering terminating our security monitoring contract since so many owners don't use it anymore. Our attorney just gave us the opinion that we do not have to hold a membership vote because our governing documents say we MAY offer it, but don't have to - the same with cable.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. But even if you have to do some modifications of the building in order to provide the fiber optic service, most likely your governing documents cover you for making this decision.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
(1) About utilities:

From the Declaration:

Section 1.05: "Common Elements" shall mean the common areas and facilities which comprise the Condominium Property which include the following: ....

(i) Foundations, columns, girders, beams, supports, supporting walls, roofs, wiring, pipe lines,halls, corridors, paved stoops, lobbys, common stairways, porches, antenna systems, sprinkleer systems, fire escapes and common entrances and exits of all buildings.
....

Section 1.17: "Unit" ....
(6) all plumbing, electric, heating, cooling and other utility or service lines, pipes, wires, ducts or conduits which serve either the Unit or the fixtures locates therein, and which are located within the exterior walls of the Unit: excluding therefrom, however, all of the following items located within the bounds of that Unit:

(a) any structural element of the building contained in interior walls; and
(B) all plumbing, electric, heating, colling and other utility or service lines, pipes, sump pumps and accesories thereto, wires, ducts and conduits which serve any other Unit.

Section 13.16 Utility Services. Each Unit Owner by acceptance of a deed to a Unit agrees to pay for utility services separately metered or separately charged by the utility company to that Unit. In the event any utility service is not separately metered, the cost thereof shall be a Common Expense and paid by the Association. Therefor, any utilities that are not metered separately shall be billed to the Unit Owners based on such Unit Owners' undivided interest in the Common Elements even though this may not be an accurate measurement of actual usage of one Unit Owner as compared with Other Unit Owners. This may result in an advantage for some Unit Owners and a disadvantage for other Unit Owners.

My comment: Not sure how helpful this is. I have to look at Company A's contract to see if they or we would own the equipment they install. My understanding is that the equipment will belong to them and will be serviced by them if it malfunctions (similar to electric meters or cable wiring located outside of buildings). Once the wiring enters a building, it's the responsibility of either the association or the unit owner depending on where it's located. This is different from satellite dishes - I think the unit owners own them and have to deal with any repairs.

(2) Cable

Our buildings were pre-wired for cable, landline phone service, and security systems. Owners select a service provider of their choice, and the company takes it from there. The association does not get involved in any of these transactions unless the pre-existing wiring is damaged and needs to be replaced.

(3) Additional Cable

We did not add anything. To the best of my knowledge, we have never needed to repair anything.

(4) Consensus on high speed internet

I'm not sure there is one among boards around the country. My personal opinion is that it's becoming increasingly necessary. Old technology can't handle current internet services. And during the pandemic, people relied on things like tele-medicine which often depends a reasonably new smart phone or high speed connection to a home computer. There are discussions about rural communities being disadvantaged in a number of ways, and the lack of high speed internet is often mentioned. Can a homeowner get along without it? Sure - they can pay assessments via paper check, and our community manager relies on email which doesn't need a fast connection. But for how long? I think boards need to look down the road.

This is helpful. The other two board members in my community are relatively inexperienced, and they listen to me. I want to get this right - not be the reason that we either say no to something we want or pick the wrong company because I ignored my misgivings.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
-- Thank you for the detailed excerpts from your covenants.

-- What the covenants say make me feel a little better about going forward with the HOA's buying fiber optic cable installation and possibly bulk services at some point without fear of violating the covenants.

-- I believe this country's businesses and governments want consumers doing as much business as possible online, preferably via an app on their pocket phone. To anyone saying "Duh.": Yeah yeah. [smile]

-- I ponder: Is this technological upgrade a material upgrade requiring owners' approval today? Maybe. But what about a few years from now, when government businesses and professions pretty much expect all to have fast internet? Then I think the legal necessity of owners' approval is greatly diminished.

-- I hear your concern about the poor customer service with Company A. It would likely be my own concern. Customer service was almost a deal breaker recently when I was deciding between a certain HP Chromebook (over an hour to a live customer service person, with accent) and a certain Lenovo Chromebook (one minute to a live customer service person, no accent). Customer service is a big deal. Maybe today it should be "customer non-service" and "bot service"?

-- Elle's tentative conclusions and recommendations to the board: Make no quick decisions here. Certainly do not sign on with Company A. I am not convinced Company A's "deal" (install the FO cable now at "no cost") is going to pan out all that well. Push off a decision to a few years from now. See how things develop. Meanwhile survey owners on the options above, being clear that the Board plans no major moves this year but wants to see where people are at with their technological desires and particular HOA oversight (with dollar implications) of meeting these desires. Continue surveying annually on this subject.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 02/15/2025 10:42 AM

-- What the covenants say make me feel a little better about going forward with the HOA's buying fiber optic cable installation and possibly bulk services at some point without fear of violating the covenants.
Also the fact that the original buildings were pre-wired for cable, and cable has been installed from the get-go, makes me feel better about the HOA (and not individual owners) handling future common area upgrades pertaining to cable-based services.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Thank you for the helpful comments.

Some other info:

Company A used to be the local phone company. I had landline and interest (DSL) services from them and was happy with them. So the current poor customer service was a surprise.

The sales folks who talked to us mentioned that they're now owned by a foreign company. "Aha," sez I to myself. "Have we found the explanation?" Our local cable company and the wireless providers may be pains in the keister, but they're *our* pains in the keister. And the cable company has actually improved service over the years. Competition will do that.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
You will want to own the fiber that gets installed in the buildings. So if company A flakes out, then a new company (B) can install their service over the existing fiber in the buildings.

Same for the fiber that gets installed in the ground.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Here is a brief quote from the license they want us to sign, granting Company A:

"... a perpetual non-exclusive license (the “License”) for ingress and egress to the Property, including buildings located thereon, to permit Company A and its contractors, at Company A's sole cost and expense, to design, install, own, operate, maintain, repair, replace and remove the System, (as defined below) at the Property to the extent necessary to provide the Services to Residents of the Property."

I've decided that if there was ever a time to have our lawyer vet an agreement, this is it. It will be money well spent - none of the board have had experience with this. And two of the board have misgivings about Company A, so we can't move forward in any case right now.

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