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RichardM19 (Illinois)
Posts: 21
Posted:
So, we had an event occur the other night that is causing me to think about liability. An owner, at 2 AM (according to a police report) or so, drove his car through the interior wall of his home. Then, he put the car into reverse and drove out of the garage, driveway, and street, ending up in the cul-de-sac island and landscaping. At that point, he drove forward and up onto other people's driveways, partially mowing down landscaping, smashed into three trees, knocking down one 10-15" diameter conifer (three had to be removed), and coming to rest in a neighbor's front yard with broken glass all over the street as testimony to his crash. I have been told the car was totaled. The man is nearing eighty. The roads (about a mile in total with 2 main roads and 7 cul-de-sacs) are private, but the public has the right of ingress and egress. We have no sidewalks, so pedestrians share the road with vehicles. In speaking to other Directors, they express skepticism over any enforcement actions. For me, I'm not certain what the steps should be, and advocate bringing the matter to the HOA attorney.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
This seems more like an insurance matter to me, and a rather messy one. This man should have his own insurance- whether it'll be enough to pay every for the damage (the HOA, affected neighbors as well as damage to his own home is another matter. If the car was totaled. I hope he had comprehensive coverage.

If you haven't already done so, talk to your master insurance carrier and encourage the neighbors to contact their own companies as well. All the insurance companies will duke it out from there. It's OK to give your attorney a heads up, but that may be all that's needed for now. Be sure to contact the master insurance regularly for updates and try to be patient - this will take time to sort out.

If everyone's expenses aren't paid by insurance, prepare for legal action against the owner on the HOA's behalf. The individual owners can take their own legal action and if everyone winds up in the same court, the judge may combine all the cases. This may result in the man having to sell his house to satisfy everyone.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335
Posted:
Of the areas that were damaged that you listed, which were common areas (for which the condominium has the maintenance responsibility)?
RichardM19 (Illinois)
Posts: 21
Posted:
Aside from the damage to his interior wall, it's all common property. We are a common interest community, and all land aside from the footprint of the home is common property. Even the driveway exists on common property but is a limited common element. To refocus a bit, the money side of this equation isn't what causes me concern, and that will get worked out, or it doesn't by insurance. The HOA will just bill the owner directly. What bothers me is that we now know this man, by some means, was impaired, either in mental decline or some intoxication or whatever. We were lucky there were no personal injuries, but we could have had death or injury to a pedestrian. If the HOA takes no action and this person goes on to injure or kill a pedestrian in a future event, what then will be our liability?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
What do you mean by "enforcement actions"?

I assume the driver was impaired in some fashion, although this may have been a medical event and not something like drunk driving. Still, your CC&Rs may say that damages to the common elements may be assessed to the owner responsible for them. And in this case the driver is almost certainly responsible, regardless of why he lost control of the vehicle. Prediction: he will lose his license over this.

I agree with others' recommendation to inform your insurer as well as the HOA's attorney. There will certainly be dueling claims and probably legal disputes as well. And you want some guidance about the HOA's legal obligations as far as road safety goes. In my community, the board enacted a speed limit and we put up signs about children playing. (The latter stopped the playing in the streets without the board having to do anything further.)

I think that anything beyond what's already coming the driver's way will be a drop in the bucket. You also have to be cautious when dealing with elderly residents because of potential Fair Housing issues - which is another reason to get guidance from the attorney. Aside from assessing the driver for damages, I wouldn't recommend anything else unless the lawyer or insurer recommend it as protection from future liability.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
There are things the association cannot control, including human behavior. Nwe are all adults and have to make our own decisions and be responsible for them. To wit, if you drive a car, you should know how to operate it, know the rules of the road - who do you think drivers education and driver's licenses exist? You should have car insurance (most states require it) and you should know 7ts not a good idea to drive f you've drank too much or taken other drugs (some prescription drugs warn about this on the label.

In this case, you've seen what's becoming an emerging issue - older drivers and their ability to continue driving safely. As you age, you might more vision or hearing issues and your reaction time-consuming slow down, making driving more challenging. At the same time, it's very difficult for some to admit they may have to make changes in their driving habits, such as no longer driving at night. If things escalate to where they have to give up driving altogether, all hell breaks loose, because for many, that's one of the last indicators they can still live independently.

You don't know (or haven't said) if this man has had near misses in the past - his family may have been dealing with this for some time but the man insisted on driving anyway. Has anyone talked to them? If not, I suspect they're having that conversation with his doctor on what happens next.

Once again, this isn't something the HOA can control. The best you can do 8s make sure tge common areas are maintain as far as the streets go. If lighting at night is an issue or there are blind spots in some areas,, you can address that. Maybe speed bumps may be necessary. We aren't insurance experts, so talk to your carrier if you have concerns.

Beyond that, it may be helpful to tell people about driver safety programs for older adults- I believe AARP has one and taking it can even help with reducing car insurance premiums. There are also articles on the web about talking to older drivers and perhaps their doctors about dangerous driving - Google it and post the links in your newsletter or community website. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardM19 on 12/07/2024 6:37 AM
So, we had an event occur the other night that is causing me to think about liability. An owner, at 2 AM (according to a police report) or so, drove his car through the interior wall of his home. Then, he put the car into reverse and drove out of the garage, driveway, and street, ending up in the cul-de-sac island and landscaping. At that point, he drove forward and up onto other people's driveways, partially mowing down landscaping, smashed into three trees, knocking down one 10-15" diameter conifer (three had to be removed), and coming to rest in a neighbor's front yard with broken glass all over the street as testimony to his crash. I have been told the car was totaled. The man is nearing eighty. The roads (about a mile in total with 2 main roads and 7 cul-de-sacs) are private, but the public has the right of ingress and egress. We have no sidewalks, so pedestrians share the road with vehicles. In speaking to other Directors, they express skepticism over any enforcement actions. For me, I'm not certain what the steps should be, and advocate bringing the matter to the HOA attorney.

Enforcement is something that occurs during or after the incident, not before the incident, Even if you would have had an officer in close proximity at the time, he may have been powerless to stop what was occurring.

Do you propose hiring off duty police officers to patrol your community? 24/7 coverage will cost you about $350,000 a year + patrol vehicle costs.

RichardM19 (Illinois)
Posts: 21
Posted:
Since the roads are private, and aside from DUI, the police have zero role, the issue I have comes down to future liability. Since the HOA now knows of a person living and operating a motor vehicle on our private streets, he, at least in one instance, was not capable of safe vehicle operation. So if the HOA does nothing, and he goes on and has another accident with personal injury or death, has the HOA now become more liable since they had prior knowledge this man was a risk to others? IMO, the right path is an attorney consult.

To clarify, what I meant by enforcement was rulemaking that suspended driving privileges.

Oh, as an aside, it took him exactly one day to acquire a new car...
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
A person drove into our entrance sign and wall. Police became involved and helped us identify the driver. The drivers' insurance company and the Associations insurance settled the case where the drivers' insurance company paid out about $10,000. Another drive hit a cornier of a unit and again the same process and the two insurance companies became involved. Again, the drivers' insurance company paid for all of the unit repairs.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 12/07/2024 10:04 AM
A person drove into our entrance sign and wall. Police became involved and helped us identify the driver. The drivers' insurance company and the Associations insurance settled the case where the drivers' insurance company paid out about $10,000. Another drive hit a cornier of a unit and again the same process and the two insurance companies became involved. Again, the drivers' insurance company paid for all of the unit repairs.

It depends on the amount of damage, it the operator actually has a license and insurance. I believe in Minnesota $10,000 is the minimum insurance for property damage, which doesn’t cover much in real dollars.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardM19 on 12/07/2024 9:37 AM
what I meant by enforcement was rulemaking that suspended driving privileges.
Do not even think it.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
The quicker you file a claim against their insurance carrier the more likely you can recover damages from their auto insurance policy.
You might be able to recover damages from their homeowners policy providing they are the owner or the owners policy.
Ultimately the homeowner is responsible for damages to community property.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
I suppose it can't hurt to discuss with the attorney, but assuming you are dealing with a licensed driver, I don't see that there is anything you can or should do.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardM19 on 12/07/2024 9:37 AM
Since the roads are private, and aside from DUI, the police have zero role, the issue I have comes down to future liability. Since the HOA now knows of a person living and operating a motor vehicle on our private streets, he, at least in one instance, was not capable of safe vehicle operation. So if the HOA does nothing, and he goes on and has another accident with personal injury or death, has the HOA now become more liable since they had prior knowledge this man was a risk to others? IMO, the right path is an attorney consult.

To clarify, what I meant by enforcement was rulemaking that suspended driving privileges.

Oh, as an aside, it took him exactly one day to acquire a new car...

You are not the driving license issuer so nothing you can nor should do.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
The people who witnessed or experienced the damage should have contacted the police.
That would have been your enforcement.
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
I don't think there is too much the HOA can do in terms of enforcing rules here. It was a very bad accident, but it's not something you could issue a violation for (not like speeding or blocking a driveway). The authorities would be the ones to issue penalties, and the driver may lose their license.

I would recommend consulting your attorney though just to see what, if any, steps the HOA should take.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardM19 on 12/07/2024 9:37 AM
Since the roads are private, and aside from DUI, the police have zero role, the issue I have comes down to future liability. Since the HOA now knows of a person living and operating a motor vehicle on our private streets, he, at least in one instance, was not capable of safe vehicle operation. So if the HOA does nothing, and he goes on and has another accident with personal injury or death, has the HOA now become more liable since they had prior knowledge this man was a risk to others? IMO, the right path is an attorney consult.

To clarify, what I meant by enforcement was rulemaking that suspended driving privileges.

Oh, as an aside, it took him exactly one day to acquire a new car...

And what do you suggest the HOA do? Can you take his license away? Would you be willing and able to do the same thing to other drivers who drive drunk, stoned, while texting their phones, etc.? Is there ANYTHING in your documents that would permit the association to ever regulate anyone's driving privileges (spoiler alert, the answer is no.).

Jesus said something about rendering to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render to God what is God's - same thing here. Unless you're going to go through the trouble of updating your documents so the association an take this step (good luck with getting homeowners to approve that) and then park someone outside of the man's house and physically prevent him from getting into that new car, there's nothing you can do about this.

This is why people carry car insurance - some things simply aren't the HOA's responsibility. I think the amount of damage from this has you spooked, but for now it's best to wait to see how this evolves. If this guy winds up paying a ton of money in damages for this (which probably will happen), the matter may resolve itself because he might be limited in buying gasoline to operate said car.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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