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BH5 (Virginia)
Posts: 84
Posted:
We have a member of our Board of Directors who has filed lawsuits (or complaints) against other members of the board and against the HOA itself. These are formal complaints filed at the state-level Ombudsman's office, so the HOA must spend money to respond in defense. It is obvious in board meetings that this person cannot separate their palatable animosity toward three members to rule on decisions unbiased. It is infrequent that this person votes with the majority. So, they are always out voted, but often they abstain with the excuse "that nobody listens to me." This person has also refused to recuse from board votes that involve a neighbor of theirs that they filed a complaint against when the board meets to vote on resolution of the complaint.

Question: Do any of you have in your bylaws that a member of the board must step down if they engaged in a lawsuit against fellow board members or the HOA? Also, do any of you have language to define circumstance when recusal is required?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BH5 on 11/17/2024 8:31 AM

Question: Do any of you have in your bylaws that a member of the board must step down if they engaged in a lawsuit against fellow board members or the HOA? Also, do any of you have language to define circumstance when recusal is required?


I've never heard of such a clause.

If one was proposed, I would vote against it because it's possible the individual bringing complaints is correct. I'm not saying that is the case with your Association. I'm simply saying that such a clause could prevent an individual who is trying to do the right thing could be forced to recuse themselves from votes.

One needs to look at any bylaw amendment from various angles so an informed decision can be made.

I will offer this from the VA Non-stock corporation act:

§ 13.1-871. Director conflict of interests

A. A conflict of interests transaction is a transaction with the corporation in which a director of the corporation has an interest that precludes him from being a disinterested director. A conflict of interests transaction is not voidable by the corporation solely because of the director's interest in the transaction if any one of the following is true:

1. The material facts of the transaction and the director's interest were disclosed or known to the board of directors or a committee of the board of directors and the board of directors or committee authorized, approved or ratified the transaction;

2. The material facts of the transaction and the director's interest were disclosed to the members entitled to vote and they authorized, approved or ratified the transaction; or

3. The transaction was fair to the corporation.

B. For purposes of subdivision A 1, a conflict of interests transaction is authorized, approved, or ratified if it receives the affirmative vote of a majority of the disinterested directors on the board of directors, or on the committee. A transaction shall not be authorized, approved, or ratified under this section by a single director. If a majority of the disinterested directors vote to authorize, approve or ratify the transaction, a quorum is present for the purpose of taking action under this section. The presence of, or a vote cast by, a director who is not disinterested does not affect the validity of any action taken under subdivision A 1 if the transaction is otherwise authorized, approved or ratified as provided in that subsection.

C. For purposes of subdivision A 2, a conflict of interests transaction is authorized, approved, or ratified if it receives the vote of a majority of the votes entitled to be counted under this subsection. The votes controlled by a director who is not disinterested may not be counted in a vote of members to determine whether to authorize, approve, or ratify a conflict of interests transaction under subdivision A 2. The director's votes, however, may be counted in determining whether the transaction is approved under other sections of this Act. A majority of the members, whether or not present, that are entitled to be counted in a vote on the transaction under this subsection constitutes a quorum for the purpose of taking action under this section.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Here is California Civil Code for HOA directors. Also the Corporations Code addresses the subject.
https://findhoalaw.com/civil-code-section-5350-directors-and-committee-members-prohibited-actions/
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Also, it seems recusal or stepping down wouldn't matter if the person mostly votes in the minority. I'm with Tim that maybe the others haven't listened or don't understand what the person is upset about.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I would expect recusal if the board member had a conflict of interest in an association issue that the board must vote on or if there's the appearance of one (appearance can be as bad as the reality). That should be noted on the minutes and the board member should also leave the room so he/can't participate in the discussion and the rest can deliberate without him/her rolling the eyes, sighing heavily, interrupting or others acting like a three year old.

As for voting, there are times when you might be on the losing side, but such is a democracy (at least it used to be - after this election, who knows?) You shouldn't be expected to vote with the majority all the time and I always say time will tell if you were right. Until then, it's your responsibility as a board member to do your part in making the decision work.

I don't like abstaining either - board members are expected to apply careful thought to all issues and vote according to what they think is the best option. If you spend all your time abstaining because you know you're going to be outvoted, why in the hell are you even there? Any homeowner should be able to go to any board member on any issue and ask why he or she voted one way or another. Explain your position like an adult - tge homeowner may still disagree, but that's OK if you didn't try to dodge the question or speak gibberish (that's really annoying)

This board member is an idiot and I don't know why y'all haven't had an executive session to discuss his/her attitude. Apparently someone needs to explain the impact on association funds, along with creating so much confusion you can't get anything done. If this board member has an issue with some of the colleagues, get all that out in the open and ask the board member point blank why he feels lawsuits are necessary. What are the issues being raised anyway?

As Melissa used to say, suing the association is suing yourself and your neighbors. If the board member feels the documents aren't being followed,, that's one thing and if the board can't review them and resolve that, then step down, file the lawsuit and we'll see who wins. If he/she is honked off at a decision the board made, I'd point out the conflict of interest in court and let him/her explain it to the judge. Don't be afraid of defending the association- it's one thing to file a lawsuit, another to win, and enforcing a judgement is a different issue entirely.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BH5 on 11/17/2024 8:31 AM
We have a member of our Board of Directors who has filed lawsuits (or complaints) against other members of the board and against the HOA itself. These are formal complaints filed at the state-level Ombudsman's office, so the HOA must spend money to respond in defense. It is obvious in board meetings that this person cannot separate their palatable animosity toward three members to rule on decisions unbiased. It is infrequent that this person votes with the majority. So, they are always out voted, but often they abstain with the excuse "that nobody listens to me." This person has also refused to recuse from board votes that involve a neighbor of theirs that they filed a complaint against when the board meets to vote on resolution of the complaint.

Question: Do any of you have in your bylaws that a member of the board must step down if they engaged in a lawsuit against fellow board members or the HOA? Also, do any of you have language to define circumstance when recusal is required?


No, but what you describe sounds like grounds the board would want to use the remove this person immediately from any officer positions and start a recall process with the owners.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 11/17/2024 6:03 PM
Posted By BH5 on 11/17/2024 8:31 AM
We have a member of our Board of Directors who has filed lawsuits (or complaints) against other members of the board and against the HOA itself. These are formal complaints filed at the state-level Ombudsman's office, so the HOA must spend money to respond in defense. It is obvious in board meetings that this person cannot separate their palatable animosity toward three members to rule on decisions unbiased. It is infrequent that this person votes with the majority. So, they are always out voted, but often they abstain with the excuse "that nobody listens to me." This person has also refused to recuse from board votes that involve a neighbor of theirs that they filed a complaint against when the board meets to vote on resolution of the complaint.

Question: Do any of you have in your bylaws that a member of the board must step down if they engaged in a lawsuit against fellow board members or the HOA? Also, do any of you have language to define circumstance when recusal is required?



No, but what you describe sounds like grounds the board would want to use the remove this person immediately from any officer positions and start a recall process with the owners.

You give that advice without knowing the facts? What if the other board members were illegally elected?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
First off, my rule of thumb is that conflicts of interest are bad. Avoiding them protects the two parties that are in conflict. *It also protects the person caught in the middle who has duties to both opponents and can't fulfill their obligations to both.* Rules that require persons in such a position to recuse themselves are not punishments - they're the opposite of punishment.

That said, whenever there is a dispute like this, hard and fast rules are not always helpful. You have to weigh the damage being done currently against the benefits of correcting the situation plus the cost of doing the correcting. I view lawsuits as a failed relationship. At worst they're a bullying tactic - a temper tantrum filed by a person who can afford such tantrums. The person filing the lawsuit has decided that whatever relationship existed prior to the lawsuit is worth sacrificing in order to get what they want. If the membership had to pay the legal costs (and possibly increased insurance rates), they may well take the position that the previous situation was better than what they have now regardless of the merit of the lawsuit.

As for the problem board member: this person wants drama, and the rest of the board has to avoid giving it to them. They're only one person - as long as the rest of the board is in agreement, the trouble maker won't affect the outcome of a vote. If the person abstains, then note the abstention in the minutes and move on. If they file a lawsuit, then they become an adverse party and *must* be excluded from discussion of the issue (especially if those discussions involve the association attorney, who will insist that the person not be present).

Assume this person will continue to act up. They want attention. They told you so: "nobody pays attention to me". The rest of the board should pay some attention in case the person raises legitimate issues - but otherwise the attitude should be "whatever" or "thank you for your comments", and you move on as if nothing unusual has happened. Make these interactions as boring as possible.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/17/2024 7:33 PM
Posted By DeanJ on 11/17/2024 6:03 PM
Posted By BH5 on 11/17/2024 8:31 AM
We have a member of our Board of Directors who has filed lawsuits (or complaints) against other members of the board and against the HOA itself. These are formal complaints filed at the state-level Ombudsman's office, so the HOA must spend money to respond in defense. It is obvious in board meetings that this person cannot separate their palatable animosity toward three members to rule on decisions unbiased. It is infrequent that this person votes with the majority. So, they are always out voted, but often they abstain with the excuse "that nobody listens to me." This person has also refused to recuse from board votes that involve a neighbor of theirs that they filed a complaint against when the board meets to vote on resolution of the complaint.

Question: Do any of you have in your bylaws that a member of the board must step down if they engaged in a lawsuit against fellow board members or the HOA? Also, do any of you have language to define circumstance when recusal is required?



No, but what you describe sounds like grounds the board would want to use the remove this person immediately from any officer positions and start a recall process with the owners.


You give that advice without knowing the facts? What if the other board members were illegally elected?

None of us here ever have all the facts. What if the other board members were voted in by unanimous vote of 100% of the owners?

If this board member is initiating legal actions against the HOA, there is conflict with attorney client privilege and that cannot be permitted.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Although an unfortunate situation, it would not be a conflict of interest. If a director was suing the association, the director would not be entitled to access any documents/information regarding his own case. It should not affect his/her other duties
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
I meant conflict re atty/client privilege, not conflict of interest.
BH5 (Virginia)
Posts: 84
Posted:

Your statement that the "board would want to...start a recall process with the owners" is interesting. I thought the owners had to form a "grassroots" group to remove a board member (i.e., the board was not involved). We must have 25% of residents affirm to vote a director (we call them trustees) off the board.
BH5 (Virginia)
Posts: 84
Posted:
Tim,

I neglected to state that in one instance, our lawyer advised that there was a clear conflict of interest and that the rest of the board should vote to recuse this person since they would not willing do so. They did vote to force the recusal, and the person was not allowed in the executive closed session to vote on the matter that involved a person the trustee had a conflict with that was a direct neighbor of this person.

But they continue to create situations where they are against someone (lawsuit / formal complaint) and when the matters are voted on, they go right back to refusing to recuse.

At this point the board is letting them have free reign (treating with kindness/patronizing) in hopes of not giving them more fuel for the next complaint. Put they keep escalating hoping to force something they can jump upon. The latest is small purchases that have always been allowed without board votes since they can be as small as $50 - $500 dollars for events, etc., and even going against our management company to get small repairs done which is in their contract to do up to $1,000.

There is no doubt by anyone that the best interest of the HOA is the last thing on this person's mind. It is certainly obvious that all these antics are about getting back at others who they think are against them.

How to prevent this in the future is why I asked the original question.

BH5 (Virginia)
Posts: 84
Posted:
Cathy,

This is clearly "bullying tactic." Only about 5% of what this person does in a board meeting is sensible. Last meeting, they took up 1 1/2 hours making multiple motions that were voted down 5 to 2. None of these motions were part of the agenda. And the rule that each trustee should keep their report/comments to 5 min was ignored, as usual. Thank you for your comments. They are very much what I am observing.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/18/2024 6:06 AM
Although an unfortunate situation, it would not be a conflict of interest. If a director was suing the association, the director would not be entitled to access any documents/information regarding his own case. It should not affect his/her other duties

How do you propose the board meet with legal council in executive session excluding a board member who is entitled to be in that meeting?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BH5 on 11/18/2024 11:57 AM

Your statement that the "board would want to...start a recall process with the owners" is interesting. I thought the owners had to form a "grassroots" group to remove a board member (i.e., the board was not involved). We must have 25% of residents affirm to vote a director (we call them trustees) off the board.

It's possible some states may limit this. But for purposes of removing and replacing board members via a special meeting, the board members will be acting in their capacity as homeowners since this will be a meeting of the membership and not a board meeting. A board member gets to vote along with the rest of the membership.

The board also needs to inform the membership why they believe this board member needs to be removed. Many homeowners don't attend board meetings and may have no clue about what the person is doing. This can be tricky, though. In my state at least, violations are handled confidentially. So it could be difficult to talk about the board member filing a complaint about a neighbor but refusing to recuse himself or herself from the hearing and vote.

I can see why some people may think it looks odd, though.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 11/18/2024 12:27 PM
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/18/2024 6:06 AM
Although an unfortunate situation, it would not be a conflict of interest. If a director was suing the association, the director would not be entitled to access any documents/information regarding his own case. It should not affect his/her other duties


How do you propose the board meet with legal council in executive session excluding a board member who is entitled to be in that meeting?

It's tricky. But in this context the board member is an adverse party and could not participate. If the suing party were allowed to participate, this would effectively stop any board from consulting the association attorney if a board member sues. That can't be the law.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Also... I believe that a single board member who files a suit can only do so in his own name - he has no authority to sue on behalf of the entire board. So he's acting in his capacity as a homeowner, not a board member, and would have no right to sit in executive session.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 11/18/2024 12:27 PM
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/18/2024 6:06 AM
Although an unfortunate situation, it would not be a conflict of interest. If a director was suing the association, the director would not be entitled to access any documents/information regarding his own case. It should not affect his/her other duties


How do you propose the board meet with legal council in executive session excluding a board member who is entitled to be in that meeting?

From Adams Stirling:

Adversarial Director - Legal Advice

A director who is adversarial to the board and likely to bring litigation against the association is not entitled to receive legal advice from the association’s counsel or attend executive session meetings where the matter is discussed. Although there is no California statute or case directly on point, the issue was decided in a 2015 case by the Washington Court of Appeals. The Court decided that an adversarial director likely to sue the association was required to recuse himself from meetings where the board would discuss potential litigation involving the director. (Hartstene Pointe Maintenance Association v. Diehl, No. 45739-3-II (Wash. June 23, 2015).) Case law from another state is not binding in California, but the principles described in the case would likely produce the same result in a California court. This same principle applies to directors who breach confidential information or waive attorney-client privilege.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BH5 on 11/18/2024 11:57 AM

Your statement that the "board would want to...start a recall process with the owners" is interesting. I thought the owners had to form a "grassroots" group to remove a board member (i.e., the board was not involved). We must have 25% of residents affirm to vote a director (we call them trustees) off the board.

Board members are owners. Any board member or the entire board may initiate the removal trustee.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I didn't seek reelection for '20-'21 due to a 7-member Board that had tuned rogue. My last couple of months on the Board, the other directors formed an "executive committee of the board" when a certain topic was on the agenda. Theses actions were in executive session b/c it was about a (HUGE!) contract in formation.

During my. year off, other owners & I engaged an attorney and had an IDR (Internal Dispute Resolution) meeting with our board & our HOA attorney. NO results. My group then prepared for an ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) with a mediator in his legal offices. Some members of my Board were there. The mediator met with each group in private a few times. And with both groups. Our an attorney reported to us that mediation was going nowhere party b/c th HOA attorney was having "client control problems" with two board members---attorenys in unrelated fields. We got nowhere.

Our attorney studied all of th documents notes fore sessions, etc. He advised our group to stop trying to stop the Board from its action. By then we were about 3 months firm the annual election. A new member on the board and a seasoned one were disgusted with the others-- Our attorney said to run and take over the Board. Coincidentally, a newer owner also wanted to on the board & had become friendly with the newer board member. Our group persuaded me to run.

The 3 incumbents who ran were soundly defeated. couple of week later the other attorney resiged having lost all support and we had a whole new Board that was. transparent, honest, respectful of ownrs during open d forum and we quickly rescinded the Board decisions d for the expensive project.

So....there was a year of exexutive session minutes about the IDR, ADR, and meetings with the attorney that involved my name. Our attorney's logical advice was to withhold all of these minutes from me. There are a couple of times one Our PM ha to snip and paste on other matters from those minutes for me.

I cannot imagine how recalling this person would be best for the corporation—time, $, perhaps divisiveness in the community??

The meeting chair must do their job. If VA only permits discussion of posted-in -advance agenda items for open meetings, the chair must stop this director immediately when they violate that law. And politely suggest they send it in writing as an for the next meeting of the Board. The Board needs to have strict guidelines for how meetings are to conducted.

This is a Board, that BH5 reports converses every day! And they seem to have a PM??? How many homes? How many directors? There seem to be some organizational issues and Board meeting protocol issues.

Again I suggest you look at your VA non profit corporations codes, BH5

Your board may, too, e able to form an "Execuive committee of the Board" which will exclude the director form particiatin,g Aks you attorney but gt your reply in writing Terri's citation might help you fid something similar in VA..
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I agree with Kerry that the easiest, least costly solution to incompetent board members is removing them through the annual election process. It may take a couple years to weed out all of the problems, but it will happen as long as the membership can see why it should. Legal action, by contrast, is an expensive and time-consuming method of achieving an uncertain result.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,338
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BH5 on 11/18/2024 12:14 PM
I neglected to state that in one instance, our lawyer advised that there was a clear conflict of interest and that the rest of the board should vote to recuse this person since they would not willing do so. They did vote to force the recusal, and the person was not allowed in the executive closed session to vote on the matter that involved a person the trustee had a conflict with that was a direct neighbor of this person.

But they continue to create situations where they are against someone (lawsuit / formal complaint) and when the matters are voted on, they go right back to refusing to recuse.
I advise: Your board President should give this person a copy of what TimB4 cited, then as appropriate on certain votes, continue voting that the person is recused pursuant to VA Non-stock corporation act, § 13.1-871. "Director conflict of interests."

I presume this guy wants you all following the law. Explain that of course the board wants him to follow the law.

The president should enforce the time limit. Also for any motion, the president should ask if another director seconds the motion of the first director. If not, the president has the right to skip any further vote or discussion on the motion.

I do not have all the facts here. I am going "by the book." I do not rule out that this person at times might have valid points.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I mainly agree with Elle, but if during an open meeting, this director makes a motion about an item that was not on the posted agenda, the chair must not legitimize it by asking for a second. The chair must rule on this illegal motion immediately.

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