💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 15
Posted:
I’m back already.

On Friday, the board dropped a 108-page document to all the owners for an informational meeting they are holding, in person, on 11/18.

It included:

-2 Proposed Amendments
-New Rules & Regulations
-Detail about the $1 million line of credit
-Contracts signed for thousands of $
-2025 Budget with assessments

And a lot of gibberish. They didn’t even consult an attorney for the proposed rental cap amendment and just copied and pasted stuff they liked from other sources. The amendment makes no sense at all.

The board has been meeting weekly for months. Minutes since June were requested to be posted to the portal.

This was their response: The meetings in those dates were executive meetings and considered confidential.

A small group of us are meeting to hire a lawyer and cease this nonsense till we can plan what to do. They’ve never approved the minutes they previously posted so all their actions taken are invalid.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Any proposed amendment that was not written by an attorney is a legal dispute waiting to happen. This is especially true if it involves a rental restriction - rentals are a contentious issue at the best of times. Not sure that failure to approve minutes means that the actions were invalid, though, as long as there was a quorum and the board votes were conducted legally. The minutes are a separate issue. But your state's laws may say otherwise.

So talking to your own lawyer is a good idea. You may want to talk with your neighbors about holding a recall-and-replacement vote, where the community votes out the entire board and replaces them with new people. This is a big step, you need competent folks willing to volunteer, and this should be reserved for serious issues. But a $1 million line of credit and DIY legal documents fit my definition of "serious issues".
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
This appears to be the applicable section of NC law. There is no requirement for all meetings to be open, just some meetings held at regular intervals.

Meetings of the executive board shall be held as provided in the bylaws. At regular
intervals, the executive board meeting shall provide unit owners an opportunity to attend a
portion of an executive board meeting and to speak to the executive board about their issues and
concerns. The executive board may place reasonable restrictions on the number of persons who
speak on each side of an issue and may place reasonable time restrictions on persons who speak.

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 15
Posted:
I didn't post about open meetings. I posted about our board having 10-12 Executive Sessions over the past 4 months for the entire board meeting with no minutes being posted to the members.

The Board replied:

"the board can choose to close sessions at any point. And all homeowner information is in the packet and will be discussed at the 11/18 meeting. We have our meeting minutes. Rest assured Everything has been properly recorded on our end."

after I posted this:

TOP SECRET
Legitimate reasons for closing a meeting generally concern issues that—if discussed in public—could violate privacy laws or harm or cause embarrassment to the association or another party. A general list of valid reasons for going into closed session includes:
• consulting with the association counsel regarding legal issues;
• discussing litigation or prospective litigation either by the association or against the association;
• reviewing personal information that is confidential or should not be generally known, such as delinquencies in homeowner association dues;
• conferring about contracts or property purchases (after all, it’s hard to negotiate if your position is known to all);
• reviewing association employees or personnel issues; or
• handling disciplinary matters or rules violations by association members.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
It’s good that some of you took the time to review the document (don’t be surprised if many of your neighbors didn’t, because reading anything in detail seems to be a big problem these days – that’s how you miss important information). However…

You say there was a lot of “gibberish”, but that’s subjective. You may be correct sections were poorly written, but it’s also possible you were a bit tired by the time you got to that section(s) because wading through a document this size IS challenging, and so it didn’t make sense. Hopefully, you wrote your questions as you went through the document so you can ask them during the meeting – and may sure YOU attend because some of your neighbors won’t do that either for various reasons.

You may also be correct about the cutting and pasting, but are you saying you checked EVERY WORD of this 108 page document against other sources? No disrespect, but I don’t see anyone taking the time to do all of that. If that’s what you think they did, I hope you’re willing to point that out (with proof) at the informational meeting.

Regarding the executive sessions, those should be rare and are usually reserved for specific circumstances – discussing sensitive issues like lawsuits by or against the association could be one of them. They should be announced before being held (e.g. going into executive session after the regular board meeting) and a summary of the board’s action mpted in the regular board meeting minutes (not a blow by blow accounting of who said what) If that didn’t happen, bring that up during the information meeting.

Speaking of meetings, board meeting minutes are supposed to be approved during the next meeting (e.g. June minutes are approved in July, and then they become the official records of the association). That’s when they should be posted on your homeowner portal, so if that hasn’t been happening, what’s taken you and your neighbors so long to bring this up? The year will be over in about eight weeks, so you need to demand answers sooner rather than later.

Having said all this, the executive session issue and board meeting minute postings are what I suggest an attorney focus on, but I don’t think you’re there just yet. Go to that meeting and see what they say – if they try to blow you off or flat out refuse, you and your neighbors might need an attorney to discuss your options. Remember, legal action will mean association resources have to be used and that could affect various maintenance projects that must be addressed.

If those contracts have already been signed, there might not be anything you can do about that, but you can check your documents to see if a special homeowner’s meeting should be called to discuss the board’s conduct – and possible recall. That will also mean others (like you) may have to step up and volunteer to serve, and then you can take a closer look at what prompted all the stuff in the 108 page document.

Perhaps the board is finally addressing issues that should have done years ago – such as underfunded reserves. Maybe if they’d been funded properly and assessments increased gradually to keep up with inflation, you might not need a $1 million line of credit now. Instead people yelled about assessments being kept “low”, forgetting about inflation, and too many board members were more interested in getting elected instead of ignoring the future (which comes whether we’re prepared for it or not.)

I think your board has bitten off A LOT more than it can chew and homeowners can absorb all at once, especially since we’re heading towards the Thanksgiving/Hannukah/Christmas, Kwanzaa/New Years season. And yes, that might be the point - throw all this at the homeowners so they’ll rubber stamp everything without thinking it all the way through (well, they’ve been talking about this all summer, so it must be ok…)

For you, I suggest contacting the board RIGHT NOW and ask that they set some priorities on what subjects should be discussed on Nov. 18 and save the other topics for several information meetings where these issues can be discussed in more detail and people can submit questions in writing.

I’d start with the 2025 budget and new contracts because that will impact assessments. The $1 million credit line discussion could also be discussed, although it may be better for next year, as you might not need it right now. That would give the board time to answer questions on why they feel this is necessary – what’s going on with your reserves?

A discussion on new rules and regulations could be saved for early next year. Be sure to check your documents to ensure the board has the authority to enact additional rules. Also note their effective dates – instead of, say Jan. 1, February 1 or March 1 might be better. For rules concerning exterior changes or appearances, homeowners could be given a 30-60 day grace period to become compliant before getting violation notices based on the new rules.

Finally, address the proposed amendments next spring – a certain percentage of homeowners will have to approve them anyway, so that would give them time to educate themselves on the issues.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/12/2024 9:05 AM
I didn't post about open meetings. I posted about our board having 10-12 Executive Sessions over the past 4 months for the entire board meeting with no minutes being posted to the members.

The Board replied:

"the board can choose to close sessions at any point. And all homeowner information is in the packet and will be discussed at the 11/18 meeting. We have our meeting minutes. Rest assured Everything has been properly recorded on our end."

after I posted this:

TOP SECRET
Legitimate reasons for closing a meeting generally concern issues that—if discussed in public—could violate privacy laws or harm or cause embarrassment to the association or another party. A general list of valid reasons for going into closed session includes:
• consulting with the association counsel regarding legal issues;
• discussing litigation or prospective litigation either by the association or against the association;
• reviewing personal information that is confidential or should not be generally known, such as delinquencies in homeowner association dues;
• conferring about contracts or property purchases (after all, it’s hard to negotiate if your position is known to all);
• reviewing association employees or personnel issues; or
• handling disciplinary matters or rules violations by association members.

Where in NC law or your declaration provides this restriction?

There are times our board meets for fact finding purposes. Previous minutes are not approved, financial reports are not reviewed, no votes are taken. We do not generate minutes for these meetings.

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 11/12/2024 6:59 PM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/12/2024 9:05 AM
I didn't post about open meetings. I posted about our board having 10-12 Executive Sessions over the past 4 months for the entire board meeting with no minutes being posted to the members.

The Board replied:

"the board can choose to close sessions at any point. And all homeowner information is in the packet and will be discussed at the 11/18 meeting. We have our meeting minutes. Rest assured Everything has been properly recorded on our end."

after I posted this:

TOP SECRET
Legitimate reasons for closing a meeting generally concern issues that—if discussed in public—could violate privacy laws or harm or cause embarrassment to the association or another party. A general list of valid reasons for going into closed session includes:
• consulting with the association counsel regarding legal issues;
• discussing litigation or prospective litigation either by the association or against the association;
• reviewing personal information that is confidential or should not be generally known, such as delinquencies in homeowner association dues;
• conferring about contracts or property purchases (after all, it’s hard to negotiate if your position is known to all);
• reviewing association employees or personnel issues; or
• handling disciplinary matters or rules violations by association members.


Where in NC law or your declaration provides this restriction?

There are times our board meets for fact finding purposes. Previous minutes are not approved, financial reports are not reviewed, no votes are taken. We do not generate minutes for these meetings.


PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 15
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/13/2024 11:03 AM
Posted By DeanJ on 11/12/2024 6:59 PM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/12/2024 9:05 AM
I didn't post about open meetings. I posted about our board having 10-12 Executive Sessions over the past 4 months for the entire board meeting with no minutes being posted to the members.

The Board replied:

"the board can choose to close sessions at any point. And all homeowner information is in the packet and will be discussed at the 11/18 meeting. We have our meeting minutes. Rest assured Everything has been properly recorded on our end."

after I posted this:

TOP SECRET
Legitimate reasons for closing a meeting generally concern issues that—if discussed in public—could violate privacy laws or harm or cause embarrassment to the association or another party. A general list of valid reasons for going into closed session includes:
• consulting with the association counsel regarding legal issues;
• discussing litigation or prospective litigation either by the association or against the association;
• reviewing personal information that is confidential or should not be generally known, such as delinquencies in homeowner association dues;
• conferring about contracts or property purchases (after all, it’s hard to negotiate if your position is known to all);
• reviewing association employees or personnel issues; or
• handling disciplinary matters or rules violations by association members.


Where in NC law or your declaration provides this restriction?

There are times our board meets for fact finding purposes. Previous minutes are not approved, financial reports are not reviewed, no votes are taken. We do not generate minutes for these meetings.






Sorry pushed the wrong button too early.

Anytime a board quorum gets together and takes an action on anything, it then becomes a valid board meeting. Even if they get together to have lunch.

I think you need to read up on Executive Sessions during board meetings before commenting any further.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,334
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/12/2024 3:07 AM
[The board has] never approved the minutes they previously posted so all their actions taken are invalid.
I disagree that the board actions taken are "invalid" just because the minutes were not approved. Most likely every board vote taken is legally valid, for several reasons.

For example, do you want to try to invalidate a board vote from May to contract with a landscaper, where the landscaper has been working for the HOA for the last several months?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
PatJ

You said anytime they "take action". What do you consider to be "take action"?
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/13/2024 11:09 AM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/13/2024 11:03 AM
Posted By DeanJ on 11/12/2024 6:59 PM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/12/2024 9:05 AM
I didn't post about open meetings. I posted about our board having 10-12 Executive Sessions over the past 4 months for the entire board meeting with no minutes being posted to the members.

The Board replied:

"the board can choose to close sessions at any point. And all homeowner information is in the packet and will be discussed at the 11/18 meeting. We have our meeting minutes. Rest assured Everything has been properly recorded on our end."

after I posted this:

TOP SECRET
Legitimate reasons for closing a meeting generally concern issues that—if discussed in public—could violate privacy laws or harm or cause embarrassment to the association or another party. A general list of valid reasons for going into closed session includes:
• consulting with the association counsel regarding legal issues;
• discussing litigation or prospective litigation either by the association or against the association;
• reviewing personal information that is confidential or should not be generally known, such as delinquencies in homeowner association dues;
• conferring about contracts or property purchases (after all, it’s hard to negotiate if your position is known to all);
• reviewing association employees or personnel issues; or
• handling disciplinary matters or rules violations by association members.


Where in NC law or your declaration provides this restriction?

There are times our board meets for fact finding purposes. Previous minutes are not approved, financial reports are not reviewed, no votes are taken. We do not generate minutes for these meetings.






Sorry pushed the wrong button too early.

Anytime a board quorum gets together and takes an action on anything, it then becomes a valid board meeting. Even if they get together to have lunch.

I think you need to read up on Executive Sessions during board meetings before commenting any further.



Actually, you need to read up on board meetings because few states prohibit a board from meeting for lunch, to attend educational seminars or discussing HOA matters when an official action is not taken.

2 members of a 3 member board are hanging Xmas decorations next week, since a quorum of the board exists, do you expect minutes? Heck, some one might say we need new light sets next year and the other member agree. That doesn’t mean a board meeting occurred.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 11/13/2024 5:50 PM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/13/2024 11:09 AM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/13/2024 11:03 AM
Posted By DeanJ on 11/12/2024 6:59 PM
Posted By PatJ1 on 11/12/2024 9:05 AM
I didn't post about open meetings. I posted about our board having 10-12 Executive Sessions over the past 4 months for the entire board meeting with no minutes being posted to the members.

The Board replied:

"the board can choose to close sessions at any point. And all homeowner information is in the packet and will be discussed at the 11/18 meeting. We have our meeting minutes. Rest assured Everything has been properly recorded on our end."

after I posted this:

TOP SECRET
Legitimate reasons for closing a meeting generally concern issues that—if discussed in public—could violate privacy laws or harm or cause embarrassment to the association or another party. A general list of valid reasons for going into closed session includes:
• consulting with the association counsel regarding legal issues;
• discussing litigation or prospective litigation either by the association or against the association;
• reviewing personal information that is confidential or should not be generally known, such as delinquencies in homeowner association dues;
• conferring about contracts or property purchases (after all, it’s hard to negotiate if your position is known to all);
• reviewing association employees or personnel issues; or
• handling disciplinary matters or rules violations by association members.


Where in NC law or your declaration provides this restriction?

There are times our board meets for fact finding purposes. Previous minutes are not approved, financial reports are not reviewed, no votes are taken. We do not generate minutes for these meetings.






Sorry pushed the wrong button too early.

Anytime a board quorum gets together and takes an action on anything, it then becomes a valid board meeting. Even if they get together to have lunch.

I think you need to read up on Executive Sessions during board meetings before commenting any further.



Actually, you need to read up on board meetings because few states prohibit a board from meeting for lunch, to attend educational seminars or discussing HOA matters when an official action is not taken.

2 members of a 3 member board are hanging Xmas decorations next week, since a quorum of the board exists, do you expect minutes? Heck, some one might say we need new light sets next year and the other member agree. That doesn’t mean a board meeting occurred.


Good example ala Xmas decorations.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here