Roofs

Started by PeggyW3 • 21 replies • 335 views

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PeggyW3 (Michigan)
Posts: 73

Posted:

Our Association needs to replace a number of roofs, and we have had a Reserve Study done on them, and a roof study done as well. The problem I am having is currently these roofs are Presidential very expensive, asphalt, considered #1 in quality and have a life expectancy of 30-50 years. We do not know when they were installed but think most were installed 20 plus years ago. So we have done a Reserve Study which bothers me because they don't go up on each individual roof and use it's age to determine whether it needs to be replaced or not. The cost of replacement is 40-60 thousand each, some more, some a little less. We have over 100 units. We also have had a roof company assess them, and they went with a 1-5 scale with 5 being immediate need for replacement. 30+ are 4's and the majority are 3's. Well we don't have $700,000 to put a new roof on 30+ roofs in the next 2 years. A huge Assessment is being considered.

We live in one that is a 3 and looking around the area, the roofs all look so good, I am suspicious that both studies are using age and not aware of the quality, and we have no individual assessment of each rook, describing edges curling, granulation in the eaves, reported many leaks, etc. A young guy who is on the board says he will do any roof that has had leaks in the past, so I said, 1 leak, 2 leaks, 3 leaks, how many leaks and he said 1 or 2. I am at my wits end trying to talk with this board and tell them, BEFORE we start doling out thousands of dollars we should have a roof specialist or someone look carefully at each roof and see if there are some real problems with the shingles etc.

I am getting pushback. The reserve Study said most of the roofs were at least 23-26 years old and needed replacing within a 2-3 year period. BASED on their age and 1-2 leaks in the past few years??? That's nuts!!! HELP!!!!~!!

NOTE: I have looked on line and see most roofing companies assess roofs based on a 1-100 scale. I would like to know how to make sure we aren't being ripped off with putting 40-60 thousand dollar roof on a unit that can wait another year or two. There are concerns like, repairs are expensive, although I feel if a roof has a couple repairs and can wait a couple more years, they should. Where would I find out exactly what the criteria is for putting on a new roof? And where can I get someone to look at roof and see if the surveys are really accurate. They have ratings of 3.5 and 4.5 which seems silly to me as the 1-5 rating scale is pretty rough.

Thanks for your help, as always.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

That's odd that NO ONE knows when the roofs were installed. How old is your community? You could ask every owner to look through the papers they got at closing to see if there's something that can give you a clue. Has anyone on the board looked through old association records?

Reserve specialists don't always do physical assessment of common areas - that takes lots of expertise and would jack up the rates (and many associations already have trouble doing them every five years as is generally recommended,) you didn't mention weather and if you're in Michigan, I suspect your winters can be more intense than in other areas so just because you don't think 1-2 leaks doesn't seem like an issue, you don't know if there are underlying problems underneath.

Roofs are expensive, so it wouldn't hurt to get at least three estimates to help decide what's the best way to address this, especially if you don't know when they were installed (looks like y'all haven't done a good job in keeping records, so I hope you take steps to fix that.) If the roofs are rated on a 1-5 scale in the reserve study, ask the other companies to do the same, emphasizing their condition as opposed to age since you're not sure of that. If the recommendations are similar to what you were originally told, that's what you go with. It may cost more, but see if you can get photos of the more serious problems (if you have the same problem in several buildings, one or two photos of that may suffice).

Your other conversation on this website indicates high costs are coming whether people like it or not, and remember your reserves have to cover other areas, such as streets. It appears assessments haven't kept up with increasing costs, so your upcoming budgets for next year and beyond have to keep inflation in mind.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

As the old saying goes, you get what you pay for. I for one especially when it comes to roofs, go with the best materials and budget for a roof
inspection after the install is complete. You honestly want the best to protect the roofs for all the owners and to shield the HOA from any
potential damages for going with the cheap stuff.

Make sure your contract with the roofer includes a clause that the remainder of the payment is depended on the roof passing inspection,

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

It would be a bit odd for condominiums to have high-end roofs unless the entire community was targeted to the wealthier buyer or the weather in that area was a challenge. Not that it can't happen, just that it seems to be an outlier and questions should be asked. What we usually see in my area is 25-30 year shingles.

Yes, apparently it's now a thing that folks who do reserve studies for condos don't want to climb up onto the roofs. Or they're willing but want the association to provide the ladders (we said "nope" because of liability). We had our regular roofing company inspect all of our roofs and give us estimates of their condition. We've also had a couple of engineers inspect them. Their conclusions were that we'll have to replace ahead of schedule, but nothing needs immediate replacement. We're having a new reserve study done now, and we expect that it will confirm what we've already been told. The community has been informed that higher assessments are here to stay.

If you've been using a reputable roofing company for your repairs and they've been doing good work, that's a good source for another opinion.

Some odd things we've found: there is little correlation between the ages of our roofs and their condition, and the damage is pretty evenly divided among storm damage, normal wear and tear, and some small construction defects.

Beware of the roofing insurance scammers who are now in this area. Apparently pickin's are too slim down in Florida these days, so they have to look farther north. Gullible boards who've been "saving money by keeping assessments low" are prime targets for these clowns, and they pick their targets wisely. Less-than-scrupulous community management companies may be willing to give the scammers the names of board presidents in return for something or other. Warning signs: 1) they're from out of state; 2) they approach you, not the other way around; 3) they'll claim they can get your insurer to pay for all! new! roofs! because of some Extra Special Expertise they have. Tell them to take a hike. If you're tempted, for the love of all that's holy have the association attorney review the contract before signing it (after which you'll tell them to take a hike).

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Re: the age of the community - you can probably look on your county recorder's website and find the community's CC&Rs. This will tell you when the documents were recorded, thus the age of the community.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

The board could take out a loan with owner approval, to do all of the roofs. This loan could be for ten years, and the cost would be put on the unit for payback.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 11/10/2024 6:05 AM
The board could take out a loan with owner approval, to do all of the roofs. This loan could be for ten years, and the cost would be put on the unit for payback.

Sure, the board could do that, but why would I want to pay interest at a higher interest rate than I could get myself?

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PeggyW3 on 11/09/2024 4:27 PM
Our Association needs to replace a number of roofs, and we have had a Reserve Study done on them, and a roof study done as well. The problem I am having is currently these roofs are Presidential very expensive, asphalt, considered #1 in quality and have a life expectancy of 30-50 years. We do not know when they were installed but think most were installed 20 plus years ago. So we have done a Reserve Study which bothers me because they don't go up on each individual roof and use it's age to determine whether it needs to be replaced or not. The cost of replacement is 40-60 thousand each, some more, some a little less. We have over 100 units. We also have had a roof company assess them, and they went with a 1-5 scale with 5 being immediate need for replacement. 30+ are 4's and the majority are 3's. Well we don't have $700,000 to put a new roof on 30+ roofs in the next 2 years. A huge Assessment is being considered.

We live in one that is a 3 and looking around the area, the roofs all look so good, I am suspicious that both studies are using age and not aware of the quality, and we have no individual assessment of each rook, describing edges curling, granulation in the eaves, reported many leaks, etc. A young guy who is on the board says he will do any roof that has had leaks in the past, so I said, 1 leak, 2 leaks, 3 leaks, how many leaks and he said 1 or 2. I am at my wits end trying to talk with this board and tell them, BEFORE we start doling out thousands of dollars we should have a roof specialist or someone look carefully at each roof and see if there are some real problems with the shingles etc.

I am getting pushback. The reserve Study said most of the roofs were at least 23-26 years old and needed replacing within a 2-3 year period. BASED on their age and 1-2 leaks in the past few years??? That's nuts!!! HELP!!!!~!!

NOTE: I have looked on line and see most roofing companies assess roofs based on a 1-100 scale. I would like to know how to make sure we aren't being ripped off with putting 40-60 thousand dollar roof on a unit that can wait another year or two. There are concerns like, repairs are expensive, although I feel if a roof has a couple repairs and can wait a couple more years, they should. Where would I find out exactly what the criteria is for putting on a new roof? And where can I get someone to look at roof and see if the surveys are really accurate. They have ratings of 3.5 and 4.5 which seems silly to me as the 1-5 rating scale is pretty rough.

Thanks for your help, as always.

There are several comments that you have made that may indicate misunderstanding .

Asphalt roofing may carry a warranty against manufacturer defects up to 35 years. This does not mean the roof will last 35 years and typically an asphalt roof with 25 years in service has reached its useful life in Michigan. The reason is attics in occupied buildings get hot and this heat reduces roof life.

When a roof starts to leak, usually other more costly damage has occurred before the leak is discovered. That means roof sheathing, insulation, drywall needs to be replaced. The path water takes is unpredictable. You might find yourself rather concerned when water is dripping from around your electrical switches and outlets or into your bed. The HOA needs to act before this occurs.

A reserve company is professionals paid by your HOA to provide unbiased advice on when elements need replaced, cost of the replacements and a financial plan. They make no recommendations of contractors and have no reason to “rip off” the HOA.

When a roofing company performs an inspection, which you state your board used to assess the roofs, they typically use drones to fly over the roofs taking photos,, then evaluate the roof condition and provide a report on roof condition, which usually includes photos.

Your situation sounds very common. Your previous boards failed to fund adequate reserves for your roofs and now owners need to pony up cash. As many owners, you want an excuse the expense is not needed, an excuse not to pay, to extend the time to pay ect. Hopefully you have lived in the HOA a long time and enjoyed artificially low assessments for many years, but it appears the day of reckoning has arrived for your owners.

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

I think we will need get to the point of the original roofs. There are two parts to roof the material and the installation. At times the installer is more important than the material.

Here is a link.

https://cf-store.widencdn.net/certainteed/b/a/9/ba9e613f-084a-41d4-a698-b5595bb5fdab.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3D%22asphalt-low-slope-shingle-warranty-00-02-3768-NA-EN-2403.pdf%22&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf&Expires=1731263291&Signature=KBB~xW-CeFFway0IA9lM-yW~hIxe1aP7ZU1KR9g7wzHS08hEURsFCtGecie~-x9FFb2WDzWzrr9uu1EV2jXXBSuo6FYLM~Iq4yOTIkjk8RKhWch5HTz0BXMbXrqlqs0a3jt-CsAHTgH9GCmlcxe~I0rQkk7LCD2TAPAWfceIKRrm6FkiRQEAoMtitlLuGcyn~hveGi12ea~58eCp88B4PiSWzCSwH24ATLoGjCLHR7FjtwwXqESU1~vghQIuvZbGPSfV63R6rYbfi-lLKsahusPfrTIhjlF9gRmEX~fIl45D~Xw5zBRJJlBUOWuDAfq3O~LiSJh6EJh7DSLFAK89Ww__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJD5XONOBVWWOA65A

It looks like since this is a condo there will be its own timeframe for warranty. Also there are different manufacturers out there that have this type of asphalt roofing material. It does look like an extended period of time up to 50years. However......

It looks like no one is managing the store here. Any documentation on exactly who the installer is and what manufacturer and material was used. It looks like no history. Also for these types of warranty the installer has to file information with the manufacturer just like registering a product so their approved installers are doing the work. If there is no history on the roof they it looks like you are out of luck.

Another troubling item is that there is a discussion of leaks. You might be running into roof leaks and that may not be a manufacturer issue but an installer issue. Then did the installer issue a warranty on the installation?

Never have a roofing company look at your roof. There are independent roof inspectors who do not install roofs but inspect roofs. Usually large commercial roofs but they do residential and I am sure they are happy to do a condo complex.

Large projects are complicated and costly and drives a lot of angst due to the cost. I am sorry to hear about this. All the prior posters have asked some really good questions.

Just had one major project ourselves and it was mildly painful with leftover resentment. Oh well.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Peggy,

I agree with you 100%. Reserve Studies provide reasonable guideposts for when roofs and amenities should be expected to be replaced, but I've never found it fiscally prudent to replace and expensive amenity that is still easily within its functional life.

That said, if this haggle is over waiting only 1-2 years on a 40 year lifespan, I can understand the HOA formulating a plan for near-term action. However, roofs work until they leak. It's that simple.

Yes - one or two leaks, caused by shingle or flashing failure warrants a roof review and could/should trigger a replacement if there is consensus that the shingles are aged.

SusanO3 (California)
Posts: 163

Posted:

Good discussion, thanks. We have concrete mission style tile (35 years old on 70yr life span)and underneath an underlay that needs to be replaced within next 7 years. I too have been looking for a qualified engineer who specializes in roofing to do an independent assessment of our roof's health. I'm in Bay Area CA. It's hard to find one that isn't associated with roof install companies.

Any help from other members on where to find a independent engineer for roofs would be really helpful. Thanks, Sue

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

I did a quick Google search. Found a few. We are not allowed to post commercial listings.

Search criteria is the following in Google.

roof inspectors bay area

Please get back on how many you got a hit. I think for me at the very least 7. You have a ton out there. In my area it was tough to get about 3.

When you make the call tell them it's for a condo assn and the roofing type and how many structures. Depending on the pricing then you might only afford a certain number of structures and a specific fact finding topic. Be flexible where you get what your goal is and stay within budget. You will figure out the cost factor once you get a couple of service costs in. They will be able to tell you the cost over the phone since they will ask questions and use Google maps to do the research on how big the roof is and eyeball it through the internet. If not they should be able to provide no contract estimate on the cost with an onsite visit. I think they can do it over the phone by using internet.

Keep us posted on what you find. Thanks in advance.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Peggy,
I have only SFH HOA experience but the questions I would ask if I was on your board is why is no one asking for video evidence using drone to show the board every roof and every roofer's concerns? With today's technology this should be easy to do. I would want a whole bunch of traffic on the roof trying to find trouble and possibly creating it in the process. Has this been asked or questioned?

Regarding RS life studies they are guidelines only and with Michigan's weather I would always assume the earlier number is closer to accurate. You only mention one roofer and wondering why 3 bids were not mandated for something so costly.

SusanO3 (California)
Posts: 163

Posted:

Hi Gregory:

Just to let you know how I'm doing following your reply. I did the google and got a lot of roofing companies. I'm looking for just an engineer to give a professional assessment based on a 20% sampling from our roofs. I did find one Structural Engineering company nearby who I can call, and if they can't help they may point me in the right direction. Thanks, Sue

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

hi Sue,

I redid my search and yes I did find a lot of roofing outfits but also there were some genuine roofing inspections. They do roofing and other types of inspections.

Some key buzzwords with be the following. I cut and pasted that verbiage which are two of the nationwide home inspection certification outfits.

"All of our Home Inspectors are certified by either ASHI or InterNACHI to provide industry-standard Home Inspections for buyers, sellers, and existing homeowners."

It does take a bit of time but if you click each one you will like yourself found a bit of roofing contractors. If you keep on clicking you do come across several true inspectors. I do not want the thread to be deleted because I posted the names of the outfits.

Another approach is to get home inspectors etc involved to get recommendations for a roofing inspectors. I got a lot of help with home inspectors who then help me out with specialty inspectors they know of.

I quickly clicked through and I got three genuine outfits. They are out there. Once you got your short list then the calls have to go out if they are willing to do condos etc.

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GregoryT1 on 11/10/2024 5:49 PM
hi Sue,

I redid my search and yes I did find a lot of roofing outfits but also there were some genuine roofing inspections. They do roofing and other types of inspections.

Some key buzzwords with be the following. I cut and pasted that verbiage which are two of the nationwide home inspection certification outfits.

"All of our Home Inspectors are certified by either ASHI or InterNACHI to provide industry-standard Home Inspections for buyers, sellers, and existing homeowners."

It does take a bit of time but if you click each one you will like yourself found a bit of roofing contractors. If you keep on clicking you do come across several true inspectors. I do not want the thread to be deleted because I posted the names of the outfits.

Another approach is to get home inspectors etc involved to get recommendations for a roofing inspectors. I got a lot of help with home inspectors who then help me out with specialty inspectors they know of.

I quickly clicked through and I got three genuine outfits. They are out there. Once you got your short list then the calls have to go out if they are willing to do condos etc.

Hi one typo above. I meant to say "They do roofing inspections and other types of inspections."

Your approach with a structural engineer to get some leads on roof inspectors is a good approach.

A structural engineer will be a bit overkill on the status of the roof unless you have true structural defects with the roofs or the load bearing portion of structures. I have hired a structural engineer and they came up with a recommendation for a foundation issue. i will bring one in if I am going to change a roofing system from one type to another and had a concern on the load that the new material type will have on the structure. A bit overkill on a straight up inspection.

In any case keep us posted and thanks for making this a two way discussion.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,335

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PeggyW3 on 11/09/2024 4:27 PM
Where would I find out exactly what the criteria is for putting on a new roof? And where can I get someone to look at roof and see if the surveys are really accurate. They have ratings of 3.5 and 4.5 which seems silly to me as the 1-5 rating scale is pretty rough.

Assessing current roof life expectancy is not an exact science. I think the goal should be to get comfortable with this reality.

If leaks are occurring on many of the roofs, and new leaks continue year after year, a board has to weigh the risk of an increasingly higher probability of damage being caused by the leaks. Think water inside the walls, too. Also think of mold.

Reserve studies are also not an exact science. So is budgeting. Still: Without estimates of the remaining life of roofs, reserve studies and budgeting, things would be worse.

ReneeL4 (Florida)
Posts: 6

Posted:

You're lucky you are not in Florida! Most insurance's want roofs replaced at 15 years now. Our community is in the process now of replacing all the roofs - there are 22- 2 storied buildings, shingles roofs. the roofs were 19 years this year. Were told we would have to self-insure next year if not replaced. Three direct hurricane hits this year, claims till out processing. For the last three years, every year we have had roofers come in, drone & walk the roofs, giving latest estimates. Lumber & petroleum prices have a direct effect on roof replacement costs. Over the years, a small portion of HOA went into roof reserves to build up monies. But, it was not enough. Last year, a Special Assessment was done, & another SA will be done this year. Hopefully, with what we already had in HOA Reserves for Roofs + the Special Assessments will be enough. What is ironic is the roofer we ended up going with was substantially less money than previous yearly estimates. We signed our contract before Hurricane Season. Which was super lucky.
I would advise to make sure whoever you do decided to go with... have their contract before you sign it - give it to your lawyer to go over. Make sure they warranty their work about 10 years. But know if a hurricane blows through that may cancel out any warranties. In the meanwhile, have your roofs regularly drone surveys (keep the records!) repaired & maintained. If you contract a roofer, see if they will tarp for free. And don't let them charge you to survey your roof!

DavidJ21 (Arizona)
Posts: 22

Posted:

Peggy if I can ask why so much consternation about the roofs?

I managed a roofing project for our Florida Condo last year. We had to replace them at like 12-13 years old. We had saved on a basis of 20-year replacement and we didn't get anywhere close in nailing down the amount of inflation that incurred over that 12-13 years. We also didn't expect the amount of necessary fascia repairs, gutters, etc.

We dinked around with the idea of a loan, I never wanted one and voted against it. We aren't a rich community, quite the contrary with many people on fixed incomes, but we passed a special assessment and moved forward.

My suggestion is just bite the bullet and go forward with the roofs. Everyone learns the hard way that housing requires a lot of upkeep. Individual homeowners are able to kick the can down the road, but they always face the consequences when they sell.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DeanJ on 11/10/2024 7:23 AM

Sure, the board could do that, but why would I want to pay interest at a higher interest rate than I could get myself?

In one HOA I was a member of we arranged a bank loan to do some upgrades. The bank offered owners several payment plans from pay at once with no interest or pay over a given number of years, 10 years max, with interest. 86% of owners voted to go this way.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

John,
When you say the owners, I am assuming you mean the HOA and not the individual owners. Is that correct? If owners had to get individual loans it would seem like this could take forever and the banks would be holding the properties as collateral for what was probably small loans.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 11/28/2024 9:56 AM
John,
When you say the owners, I am assuming you mean the HOA and not the individual owners. Is that correct? If owners had to get individual loans it would seem like this could take forever and the banks would be holding the properties as collateral for what was probably small loans.

The HOA backed the loans (from a local bank) thus all were approved from the get go with the individual owner paying their share off. The loans ranged from $25K to $32K depending on the type and size of your unit. The HOA consisted of individual homes and town home style with 4 townhomes per building. At the time units were selling for an average of $300K (now in the $800K range). The loan was also part of the negotiation when one sold. Meaning you could have two identical units but different selling price depending where the loan stood.

In reality it was was a Special Assessment. It had to be approved by the owners. It was approved by about 86% of all owners. Several unhappy owners sued but the court ruled against them basically saying the "deal" was properly done within the Covenants.

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