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VadR (Illinois)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property. Since then it's literally a new legal complaint or request per week. Our community is not very large, about 50 townhomes (Illinois), and this activity is both expensive, every her request being handled by our attorney, and putting unseen before strain on the board members who have deal with her. I was thinking about either starting to simply ignore her new requests (what happens if we do?), or perhaps adopting new rule imposing a penalty for the excessive unfounded requests - but I suspect these steps are not very "professional". Would appreciate any practical hints to stop her.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Do the requests have to go through the attorney?

What type of requests are they that the board is unable to respond by pointing to a statute or governing document?
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 5:29 AM
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property. Since then it's literally a new legal complaint or request per week. Our community is not very large, about 50 townhomes (Illinois), and this activity is both expensive, every her request being handled by our attorney, and putting unseen before strain on the board members who have deal with her. I was thinking about either starting to simply ignore her new requests (what happens if we do?), or perhaps adopting new rule imposing a penalty for the excessive unfounded requests - but I suspect these steps are not very "professional". Would appreciate any practical hints to stop her.

Answer every legitimate request timely, and try not to use your lawyer unless absolutely necessary. Unnecessary attorney fees will just magnify your angst. Make sure everything is in writing. Don't give a member a valid reason to sue the association/board.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
This owner is getting something out of the stream of requests - some emotional payoff. Your job is to remove the payoff from the transactions. So no drama and minimal attention.

I agree with Terri that you should respond - once, in writing - to legitimate requests.

Attempts to argue or re-litigate an issue should be acknowledged with "we have received your communication" and nothing else.

*No* unscripted responses. You want everything in writing so that you have proof of what the board has communicated.

I have a collection of brief and boring responses to use with our drama llamas. Use one as needed.

VadR (Illinois)
Posts: 7
Posted:
The main problem is with the frequency of her demands. Just the most recent incident: she filed hardship request. Her request was heard at the meeting, and after that her neighbor who attended it made a sarcastic remark to her. 2 days after she sent a letter to the effect that hearing it at the meeting was privacy breach that violated Condo Act, and

"I expect a detailed explanation of:
How this breach occurred
What immediate steps will be taken to prevent further unauthorized disclosures?
How the Board intends to address the damages I have suffered due to this breach of fiduciary duty and invasion of privacy under Illinois law
What measures will be implemented to restore my right to quiet enjoyment of my property
Because of the serious nature of this privacy breach, the documented threatening behavior, and the continuing impact on my personal and professional well-being, I need a comprehensive written response within five business days to address all points raised in this letter."

Seems like this needs to be analyzed by the attorney; but even if not, assuming that we have to respond (do we?), someone definitely has to spend nontrivial time. And like I said - a letter like this about _something_ comes every other week, if not every week. We simply don't have enough time to respond, and it's very clear that her goal is to maximize the burden on the Board.

VadR (Illinois)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Cathy, can you share the collection?
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Your governing documents or your state law should define what matters must be discussed in a confidential setting or executive session. It seems a request for an exception to the rental policy would not be a confidential matter.
VadR (Illinois)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Right. But to find that out for sure, that's where the attorney comes into picture.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
First of all, do your governing documents or state law allow for a variance/exception from the Bylaws? I doubt it. Are your Bylaws consistent with your Declaration in forbidding rentals? If your governing documents and state law do not allow exceptions/variances then the member could be informed that the board has no discretion to deviate from those. As long as the member had no right to confidentiality. And as a last resort there is always a civil harassment restraining order.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
If the matter was heard at an open meeting, and the member was present, the member had the opportunity right then and there to object to an open meeting, putting a stop to any discussion of her situation. Plus it was probably on your meeting notice and agenda to which the member could have objected in advance.
VadR (Illinois)
Posts: 7
Posted:
I have no doubt that we will find the way to respond in this particular instance, having spent hours and possibly $$. But in 1-2 weeks there will be another. And another. And another. How to stop it altogether?
I think Cathy's suggestion is the way, thank you Cathy.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I like Cathy's suggestion too.

But, to pursue Terri's point: Do your CC&Rs forbid renting out THs? Or the right to limit t rentals in anyway? What about IL laws?

It seems to me it IS possible that her "hardship". being presented in an open meeting could b a violation of her privacy. In Calif, for example, owners' requests for payments plans when they fall behind on thier dues would legally be heard in executive session.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 6:45 AM
Cathy, can you share the collection?

"Thank you for your comments."

For an issue that the board has already responded to: "We have received your communication dated xx/xx/xxxx." (This was our lawyer's advice.)

If I bump into a complainer outside of a meeting:

"Please put this in writing and send it to our manager so that the board can consider it."

"How are you? Isn't this weather great/something else? Got an appointment, gotta run."

When I'm on the board, I never discuss association issues one-on-one with an owner unless it's something that has a short, factual answer - for example, "the meeting is this coming Thursday at 6 PM" or "that info is on the website". The danger with more substantive conversations that that the owner will hear your comments as "the board says" and will act on the information. It's especially important with owners who are looking for reasons to criticize the board. You don't want to say something that gives them ammunition, and that's more likely to happen if you haven't had time to think about your response. And you don't want to encourage owners to bend your ear every time you stick your nose outside. This tends to happen to board presidents, it's unfair to them, and is a reason that the capable board members burn out. It's in the community's best interests to keep the good ones around as long as possible.

In general, homeowners who are confrontational take control of the communications with their behavior. The board can't control the behavior, but it can control the interaction by controlling their piece of it. Someone who tries to provoke a fight doesn't determine whether the fight happens. The potential target does - if target walks away, no fight. Sometimes this is easier said than done, since bullies may escalate. Targets (in this case the board) need to plan out ahead of time how to respond. Your goal is to bore the cookies out of the bully. Never let a trouble maker provoke you into saying or doing anything that you have not thought through ahead of time.

The good news is that this approach becomes second nature after a while.

(And it goes without saying that the board needs to thoroughly know their CC&Rs, bylaws, state law, and other things. This will help prevent mistakes, and it will help the board recognize BS when they hear it.)

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,338
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 5:29 AM
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property.
A flat-out prohibition on renting, that is legally enforceable, would surprise me. Furthermore a prohibition in the bylaws (and not the declaration, a.k.a. "covenants") would surprise me.

The owner may very well have the legal right to rent. The board may very well be in the wrong. If so this would explain why the owner is all antsy. To get clarity --

-- Please quote verbatim everything that the declaration and bylaws say about renting.

-- Please indicate whether the quoted sections are amendments to the declaration or bylaws.

-- Please identify exactly the name of the document (declaration or bylaws) from which you are quoting.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 5:29 AM
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property. Since then it's literally a new legal complaint or request per week. Our community is not very large, about 50 townhomes (Illinois), and this activity is both expensive, every her request being handled by our attorney, and putting unseen before strain on the board members who have deal with her. I was thinking about either starting to simply ignore her new requests (what happens if we do?), or perhaps adopting new rule imposing a penalty for the excessive unfounded requests - but I suspect these steps are not very "professional". Would appreciate any practical hints to stop her.

Why would every request have to go through your attorney?

The board is supposed to know the requirements of the declaration and interpret the sections. If the board is not clear on the text, you should simply ask your attorney for clarification.

When an owner goes off like this, I suggest you acknowledge the receipt of every complaint and advise the board will consider the complaint at the next board meeting. For requests, the request is either allowed or it isn’t. Approve or deny requests as you do for any owner.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
Yippee....ElleN is back!
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 10/29/2024 9:32 AM
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 5:29 AM
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property.
A flat-out prohibition on renting, that is legally enforceable, would surprise me. Furthermore a prohibition in the bylaws (and not the declaration, a.k.a. "covenants") would surprise me.

The owner may very well have the legal right to rent. The board may very well be in the wrong. If so this would explain why the owner is all antsy. To get clarity --

-- Please quote verbatim everything that the declaration and bylaws say about renting.

-- Please indicate whether the quoted sections are amendments to the declaration or bylaws.

-- Please identify exactly the name of the document (declaration or bylaws) from which you are quoting.


In the OPs first post, it appears they have an attorney involved who has advised them on the renting issue and every issue there after with this owner. Why would the attorney have an interest in advising the board improperly? Or are you suggesting their attorney is incompetent?
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
DeanJ wrote; "In the OPs first post, it appears they have an attorney involved who has advised them on the renting issue and every issue there after with this owner. Why would the attorney have an interest in advising the board improperly? Or are you suggesting their attorney is incompetent?"

Because the attorney gets paid by the board and takes direction from the board. If the board wants to fight something an attorney will often tell the board what it wants to hear.
GregoryT1
Posts: 315
Posted:
Hi Ellen welcome back.

I agree that the board needs to dig into its docs and really understand it and the state laws to see what exactly is the renting issue. A strong board is an informed board and you get more better quality legal advice if needed if you know your stuff.

I am just repeating other responses that the docs and state law really needs to be looked at and we look forward in hearing what your docs have to say.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 1,338
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 10/29/2024 9:46 PM
In the OPs first post, it appears they have an attorney involved who has advised them on the renting issue and every issue there after with this owner. Why would the attorney have an interest in advising the board improperly? Or are you suggesting their attorney is incompetent?
I am suggesting that:

-- the OP's citation of the bylaws (and not the Declaration), for this prohibition on renting, makes me think the board or the OP does not understand their governing documents. As you know, the Declaration trumps the bylaws. If the Declaration has no such prohibition, then this HOA is on thin ice IMO.

-- the board voting on an exception makes me think whatever is in the bylaws or Declaration allows exceptions. When the governing docs give the board discretion, the courts require the board to be reasonable. Was the denial reasonable?

-- Denying someone income from rent, when this denial may be improper, is serious.
Quote:
Posted By JackieB4 on 10/29/2024 5:47 PM
Yippee....ElleN is back!
Good to read you again, JackieB4
Quote:
Posted By GregoryT1 on 10/30/2024 6:51 AM
Hi Ellen welcome back.

I agree that the board needs to dig into its docs and really understand it and the state laws to see what exactly is the renting issue. A strong board is an informed board and you get more better quality legal advice if needed if you know your stuff.

I am just repeating other responses that the docs and state law really needs to be looked at and we look forward in hearing what your docs have to say.
Thank you, and I agree. I expect all the regulars here likely raised an eyebrow when the OP said the prohibition was in the bylaws.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 5:29 AM
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property. Since then it's literally a new legal complaint or request per week. Our community is not very large, about 50 townhomes (Illinois), and this activity is both expensive, every her request being handled by our attorney, and putting unseen before strain on the board members who have deal with her. I was thinking about either starting to simply ignore her new requests (what happens if we do?), or perhaps adopting new rule imposing a penalty for the excessive unfounded requests - but I suspect these steps are not very "professional". Would appreciate any practical hints to stop her.

I recommend ignoring her and either having the attorney ignore her or have the attorney inform her that she's responsible for the legal bills associated with excess requests.

There is no requirement that HOAs acknowledge nuisance.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Yes the board’s duty is to enforce the CCRs including nuisances.
SusanO3 (California)
Posts: 163
Posted:
Do CCRs ever include language to cover "nuisance requests" from homeowners asking for excessive information from the Board? Sue
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Sue, it is up to the BOD to declare a request to be a nuisance. The BOD does not need to respond to each and every request. Also if it a repeat request all the BOD has to say we answered this request before. Also an answer might be, we are referring this to our attorney for further action then not do so.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
If the requests are for records, the reason given must be reasonably related to the person's interest as a member.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/30/2024 4:14 AM
DeanJ wrote; "In the OPs first post, it appears they have an attorney involved who has advised them on the renting issue and every issue there after with this owner. Why would the attorney have an interest in advising the board improperly? Or are you suggesting their attorney is incompetent?"

Because the attorney gets paid by the board and takes direction from the board. If the board wants to fight something an attorney will often tell the board what it wants to hear.

Sorry Terry, but that is BS. The attorney is the corporation’s attorney. An attorney who gives knowing incorrect legal advice risks sanctions from the Bar if a complaint is levied against them.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KellyM3 on 10/30/2024 8:05 AM
Posted By VadR on 10/29/2024 5:29 AM
Can someone suggest a clever way to deal with one homeowner who is firmly on a path of legal vendetta with the board, generating constant stream of complaints and demands. It started with the Board denying her request for an exception from our bylaws that forbid renting out the property. Since then it's literally a new legal complaint or request per week. Our community is not very large, about 50 townhomes (Illinois), and this activity is both expensive, every her request being handled by our attorney, and putting unseen before strain on the board members who have deal with her. I was thinking about either starting to simply ignore her new requests (what happens if we do?), or perhaps adopting new rule imposing a penalty for the excessive unfounded requests - but I suspect these steps are not very "professional". Would appreciate any practical hints to stop her.


I recommend ignoring her and either having the attorney ignore her or have the attorney inform her that she's responsible for the legal bills associated with excess requests.

There is no requirement that HOAs acknowledge nuisance.

I agree.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 11/01/2024 10:07 AM
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/30/2024 4:14 AM
DeanJ wrote; "In the OPs first post, it appears they have an attorney involved who has advised them on the renting issue and every issue there after with this owner. Why would the attorney have an interest in advising the board improperly? Or are you suggesting their attorney is incompetent?"

Because the attorney gets paid by the board and takes direction from the board. If the board wants to fight something an attorney will often tell the board what it wants to hear.


Sorry Terry, but that is BS. The attorney is the corporation’s attorney. An attorney who gives knowing incorrect legal advice risks sanctions from the Bar if a complaint is levied against them.


No, you are mistaken. This is commonplace. It takes a lot to get disciplined by the Bar.
GregoryT1
Posts: 315
Posted:
Dean calling out a person and stating what they writing is BS is not called for.

I have some dealing with about three lawyers on a condo case. Also I have a neighbor who went through a costly legal case in their condo.

I will state this from experience when you go to trial that means someone lost and someone won. Regardless of who won or lost the lawyers are making money.

An informed board will get better legal advice and actually can make better decisions. The OP board which the OP sounds like they are a member of is weak.

VADr we are talking in the air over here. You will need to provide documentation which you can type into the chat on the bylaw or the master has. Being on this discussion board they have taken me to school to understand my docs and I am better for it.

I rather have a non-NJ person to describe where to look in the docs so he or she can do some searching. Our NJ docs have different names and I don't want to confuse the OP.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Here's an example: my neighbor was operating a short term rental. Our HOA does not regulate rentals at all. The HOA president and his wife don't like short term rentals so they hired an attorney to write my neighbors a cease and desist letter. Then they contacted Airbnb and demanded to property be removed from the site. These very stupid actions put the HOA at risk. My neighbor could have sued but didn't. She got a long term renter because she was sick of the harassment. Now that was an HOA attorney who should have known better, who should have advised the president there was no legal basis to contact the neighbor or Airbnb.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 10/29/2024 6:38 AM
This owner is getting something out of the stream of requests - some emotional payoff. Your job is to remove the payoff from the transactions. So no drama and minimal attention.

I agree with Terri that you should respond - once, in writing - to legitimate requests.

Attempts to argue or re-litigate an issue should be acknowledged with "we have received your communication" and nothing else.

*No* unscripted responses. You want everything in writing so that you have proof of what the board has communicated.

I have a collection of brief and boring responses to use with our drama llamas. Use one as needed.


Good suggestions.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
But, Terri, did the Board -- this association- hire this attorney? Or solely the prez? If the latter, this isn't an example of how HOA attorneys advise "whatever the Board wants to hear." I agree it happens, but that they tell the board what is wants to hear is "commonplace" needs some sort of evidence.

I could agree that some attorneys will answer questions or write opinions unecessesarily to collect extra fees, but not that these replies are incorrect.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/02/2024 1:29 PM
But, Terri, did the Board -- this association- hire this attorney? Or solely the prez? If the latter, this isn't an example of how HOA attorneys advise "whatever the Board wants to hear." I agree it happens, but that they tell the board what is wants to hear is "commonplace" needs some sort of evidence.

I could agree that some attorneys will answer questions or write opinions unecessesarily to collect extra fees, but not that these replies are incorrect.

In that particular case, I don't know but I do have personal knowledge of several other examples.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Sorry, Terri, I don't think 'several" is enough to make such sweeping, all-encompassing statements. as "commonplace" suggests..
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
No need to apologize. Our experiences are just different.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 11/02/2024 1:29 PM
But, Terri, did the Board -- this association- hire this attorney? Or solely the prez? If the latter, this isn't an example of how HOA attorneys advise "whatever the Board wants to hear." I agree it happens, but that they tell the board what is wants to hear is "commonplace" needs some sort of evidence.

I could agree that some attorneys will answer questions or write opinions unecessesarily to collect extra fees, but not that these replies are incorrect.

The point is: the attorney knew we had no rental restrictions. He sent a cease and desist letter to members in good standing, demanding they cease a lawful activity! Inexcusable.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, differences experiences. Mine were as a board director with two difference general counsel (GC) Our Board dismissed one for two different reason. I thought he was not strong enough in his advice to our Board. Our the- president b/c of a purely personal reason. After a set of meeting minutes had been approved by the board, I noticed a significant error in the approved posted version . I wanted to place it back on the next one meeting agenda for the Board to rescind this error and vote to insert the correction. The prez insisted that once minutes are Board-approved they cannot be amended.

Although our PM always was in the room when the president phoned the CG and often a director if it was their concern or question, the president phoned him privately. Our HOA, via the president does have 15 minutes phone calls included in our annual retainer. He told her that approved minutes cannot be amended in the future.

By then I'd checked Robert's Rules of Order and found that minutes certainly may be amended by Boards (Robert's "assemblies"). And though our Board is not required to abide by Robert's, we use it from time to time in these types of situations. I read the relevant Robert's section. The approved minutes were rescinded at the following open meeting and a correction was approved by the Board. The president was very embarrassed. A couple of months later, she put interview other GC firms, on the agenda which we did and hired a different firm.

My 3rd direct experience was as board member and chair of a Board executive committee in our construction defect legal action. Our developer owns about 5% of our HOA and so has a permanent seat on our Board. Back then this commercial board member had a lotta clout with some board members . He also was a Prof Eng. so "knew" a lot about our buildings. The defect team did not trust directors to be free of his charm and knowledge so advised an Executive Committee be of 3 of us newer owners w/o these cozy ties to the developer. We met with the attorneys frequently and alone. They also met a lot with the entire Board minus the developer.

At the end of the legal action period and due to some sort of legal deadline that I cannot recall, our attorneys presented everything to the entire Board (minus the developer) in very long and difficult meeting. Our choice was to continue to trial to seek a much higher amount than settlement would likely provide. They presented the risks. They made it clear that a settlement would not cover the cost to repair/replace all of the defeats. It would most likely cover the major ones.

Obviously they would have earned hugely greater fees if we'd go to trial. We voted for the settlement approach and my lived experience is that the team was exceptionally balanced in its presentation of obstacles to us.

But I would never state that my experience (which I don't think Terri posses) with three HOA attorneys is sufficient "evidence" of anything One, imo, should never generalize from one or a few cases.
I'd read an article about this topic if posted.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Thanks, Kerry.

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