BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Anyone ever seen a list or a count of Non-Davis Stirling HOAs in California?
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Non-Davis Stirling HOAs in California
Started by BrianP19 • 23 replies • 311 views
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JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianP19 on 10/25/2024 12:29 PM
Anyone ever seen a list or a count of Non-Davis Stirling HOAs in California?
Anyone ever seen a list or a count of Non-Davis Stirling HOAs in California?
I am confused. What, to you, is a Non-Davis Stirling HOA?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/C/CID-Menu. might help define CA HOAs for you, etc.
Why do you want a list?
Why do you want a list?
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Take a look here:https://www.hoalawblog.com/not_every_homeowners_associati/
In short- not every HOA in California is covered under Davis Stirling.
My HOA makes this argument- because they don't own property they are not covered under DS. For me this is a big problem because all of the pro-consumer rights that are afforded under DS are not available to me. For example, when my HOA refused to provide me access to the Member List- I had no recourse except taking them to Superior Court. Our HOA elections have not had a quorum in 15 years and the existing board keeps reappointing themselves. Part of the reason we have no quorum is that the board keeps shortening the election time period and not updating the member list.
I'm trying to quantify how many others are in the same boat as me so I can make a pitch to my State Reps to amend the law- and bring some of the DS laws to my type of HOA.
In short- not every HOA in California is covered under Davis Stirling.
My HOA makes this argument- because they don't own property they are not covered under DS. For me this is a big problem because all of the pro-consumer rights that are afforded under DS are not available to me. For example, when my HOA refused to provide me access to the Member List- I had no recourse except taking them to Superior Court. Our HOA elections have not had a quorum in 15 years and the existing board keeps reappointing themselves. Part of the reason we have no quorum is that the board keeps shortening the election time period and not updating the member list.
I'm trying to quantify how many others are in the same boat as me so I can make a pitch to my State Reps to amend the law- and bring some of the DS laws to my type of HOA.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Your HOA Board seems to be correct.See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/C/CID-Defined#axzz2C0xWkhYh, which I think is a b better source. than a Blog from 2011.. n you're right, Davis-stirling provides many protection for ownrs.
I don't know how to get a list.
All you can do, I guess,is try to get your neighbors togereh with you to demand the Board comply with you governing documents.
If you're a non=profit corporation, you may find many protections in Calif Corporations Code.
I don't know how to get a list.
All you can do, I guess,is try to get your neighbors togereh with you to demand the Board comply with you governing documents.
If you're a non=profit corporation, you may find many protections in Calif Corporations Code.
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
It is a very difficult situation. I'm very aware of the Corp Code and have even drafted and filed my own civil lawsuit against the HOA in superior court (which I won) to get the member list and organize. Unfortunately, the HOA is not updating the member list which makes it even harder.
This is why I'm also trying the "legislative route." I have made contact with some of the legislative aids and they seem open to legislation- but we are trying to quantify how many people in California would benefit from these types of reforms- hence by question
This is why I'm also trying the "legislative route." I have made contact with some of the legislative aids and they seem open to legislation- but we are trying to quantify how many people in California would benefit from these types of reforms- hence by question
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Good luck k to you, Brian.
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 10/25/2024 4:14 PM
Good luck k to you, Brian.
Good luck k to you, Brian.
If anyone knows of any non Davis Stirling hoas let me know.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Brian,
Is your Association incorporated?
If it is, the corporate codes offer some of the same protections.
In fact, it would be the corporate code that specifies a board stays in office despite the end of their term if nobody was elected to replace them.
Is your Association incorporated?
If it is, the corporate codes offer some of the same protections.
In fact, it would be the corporate code that specifies a board stays in office despite the end of their term if nobody was elected to replace them.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
If an HOA has a common area, it is subject to the Davis-Stirling Act.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianP19 on 10/25/2024 3:18 PM
It is a very difficult situation. I'm very aware of the Corp Code and have even drafted and filed my own civil lawsuit against the HOA in superior court (which I won) to get the member list and organize. Unfortunately, the HOA is not updating the member list which makes it even harder.
This is why I'm also trying the "legislative route." I have made contact with some of the legislative aids and they seem open to legislation- but we are trying to quantify how many people in California would benefit from these types of reforms- hence by question
It is a very difficult situation. I'm very aware of the Corp Code and have even drafted and filed my own civil lawsuit against the HOA in superior court (which I won) to get the member list and organize. Unfortunately, the HOA is not updating the member list which makes it even harder.
This is why I'm also trying the "legislative route." I have made contact with some of the legislative aids and they seem open to legislation- but we are trying to quantify how many people in California would benefit from these types of reforms- hence by question
Brian, what kind of corporation is your association? calhomelaw.org is active in legislation to protect CA HOA homeowners.
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 10/26/2024 12:49 AM
Brian,
Is your Association incorporated?
If it is, the corporate codes offer some of the same protections.
In fact, it would be the corporate code that specifies a board stays in office despite the end of their term if nobody was elected to replace them.
Brian,
Is your Association incorporated?
If it is, the corporate codes offer some of the same protections.
In fact, it would be the corporate code that specifies a board stays in office despite the end of their term if nobody was elected to replace them.
Yes- the hoa is incorporated and registered as a mutual benefit corporation. And yes, I know the corp code provision you're speaking of. Thing is- our board is self appointing themselves after contested elections in which thousands of people vote. Our board chooses to invalidate the elections and appoint themselves. Last year 1200+ people voted and 8 candidates ran for 5 spots. The 5 incumbent candidates still threw out the ballots received and self appointed themselves- for the 14th year in a row.
And i'm going to disagree about the Corp Code. It doesn't offer nearly the same protections as DS.
1. Our election would be illegal under DS- because of the short time to vote (less than 1 month) and the lack of notice. Last year our board sent out 1 ballot and no other written reminders.
2. DS is much clearer about document requests and disclosures. Members have access to Small Claims Court for resolution and there are civil penalties for HOAs that violate the law. The Corp code has none of that.
I could go on....
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/26/2024 7:08 AM
Posted By BrianP19 on 10/25/2024 3:18 PM
It is a very difficult situation. I'm very aware of the Corp Code and have even drafted and filed my own civil lawsuit against the HOA in superior court (which I won) to get the member list and organize. Unfortunately, the HOA is not updating the member list which makes it even harder.
This is why I'm also trying the "legislative route." I have made contact with some of the legislative aids and they seem open to legislation- but we are trying to quantify how many people in California would benefit from these types of reforms- hence by question
It is a very difficult situation. I'm very aware of the Corp Code and have even drafted and filed my own civil lawsuit against the HOA in superior court (which I won) to get the member list and organize. Unfortunately, the HOA is not updating the member list which makes it even harder.
This is why I'm also trying the "legislative route." I have made contact with some of the legislative aids and they seem open to legislation- but we are trying to quantify how many people in California would benefit from these types of reforms- hence by question
Brian, what kind of corporation is your association? calhomelaw.org is active in legislation to protect CA HOA homeowners.
My HOA is a Mutual Benefit Corp. Thank you for the link. Their website seems to indicate they focus more on Common Interest Developments (covered under davis stirling) but ill email them.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
You can file a complaint with the Attorney General's office. They do enforce the Corporations Code. List every statute your board is violating. https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/26/2024 1:34 PM
You can file a complaint with the Attorney General's office. They do enforce the Corporations Code. List every statute your board is violating. https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company
You can file a complaint with the Attorney General's office. They do enforce the Corporations Code. List every statute your board is violating. https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company
Been there and done that
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
The AG also only has "discretionary authority." The AG use to have a detailed website where they listed the parts of the Corp Code they'd help with and instructions on how to ask for their help. About 6 months ago- they scaled it way back.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BrianP19 on 10/26/2024 2:00 PM
The AG also only has "discretionary authority." The AG use to have a detailed website where they listed the parts of the Corp Code they'd help with and instructions on how to ask for their help. About 6 months ago- they scaled it way back.
The AG also only has "discretionary authority." The AG use to have a detailed website where they listed the parts of the Corp Code they'd help with and instructions on how to ask for their help. About 6 months ago- they scaled it way back.
But they still have the complaint form which was on the former page you referenced. I was able to obtain a member list this way. They sent a letter to my board and gave them 30 days to respond. True, the office doesn't like to get involved
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Well, here's an idea: get your neighbors together and vote to purchase a small piece of land no matter how small so that you will have a common area. Then you will be subject to the Davis-Stirling Act. Are you positive there is nothing that could be defined as a common area now?
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/27/2024 5:14 AM
Posted By BrianP19 on 10/26/2024 2:00 PM
The AG also only has "discretionary authority." The AG use to have a detailed website where they listed the parts of the Corp Code they'd help with and instructions on how to ask for their help. About 6 months ago- they scaled it way back.
The AG also only has "discretionary authority." The AG use to have a detailed website where they listed the parts of the Corp Code they'd help with and instructions on how to ask for their help. About 6 months ago- they scaled it way back.
But they still have the complaint form which was on the former page you referenced. I was able to obtain a member list this way. They sent a letter to my board and gave them 30 days to respond. True, the office doesn't like to get involved
True- but my HOA has been just been ignoring the AG's inquiries. After the last 2 complaints I sent to the AG I eventually got a letter saying the below:
This letter is to inform you that we have been unable to elicit any response from the company which you named in
your consumer complaint. We had hoped that by writing to them and sending them your complaint that an agreeable
solution to your problem could be achieved. This often occurs without the necessity of further action.
The Attorney General is prohibited by law from representing individual citizens in legal matters. As a result, we must
end our direct involvement in your case. However, we will keep your complaint on file because it could be reactivated if
our office takes legal action on behalf of the people of California against this company at some future date.
If you wish to pursue your complaint further, we suggest that you contact a private attorney. You can obtain a referral
to a certified lawyer referral service through the State Bar at (866) 442-2529 (toll-free in California) or (415) 538-2250
(from outside California), or via their website at: http://www.calbar.ca.gov. If you cannot afford to pay an attorney, you
may consider contacting your local legal aid office. For a referral, visit http://lawhelpca.org/ and click on the Find Legal
Help tab.
You may also have the option of bringing an action in small claims court, in matters involving less than $10,000. In
this type of action, no attorneys are allowed for either side. Each party merely explains their position to the court, bringing
such witnesses or documents which they feel are necessary to support their position. For further information, please visit
http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-advisors.htm.
We regret that we cannot be of more assistance to you in this matter. If there is any way in which we can provide direct
assistance to you in the future, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/27/2024 7:59 AM
Well, here's an idea: get your neighbors together and vote to purchase a small piece of land no matter how small so that you will have a common area. Then you will be subject to the Davis-Stirling Act. Are you positive there is nothing that could be defined as a common area now?
Well, here's an idea: get your neighbors together and vote to purchase a small piece of land no matter how small so that you will have a common area. Then you will be subject to the Davis-Stirling Act. Are you positive there is nothing that could be defined as a common area now?
Thats not a bad idea- but how even if we did (wouldnt be cheap in our neighborhood)- how would we get the land/property under the HOA? The Board would have to agree to take ownership whcih they never would.
Another idea I've had:
One other idea i had- Our HOA rents property from the city (the city property is under the HOA). Technically- an argument could be made that as a renter, the hoa has possessionary interest in property. No one has ever tried to argue that possessionary interest would get you under DS. Its possible it could work- but the HOA would fight tooth and nail against that and I'd be trying make this very technical, niche argument in court (on my own) against one of the largest HOA lawfirms in the state- none other than Adams & Stirling (the same Stirling in Davis Stirling). That is who my HOA uses as their lawyer.
Im still surprised that I cant find more examples of non-Davis Stirling HOAs.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Just remember…lawyers act on instructions from the board which often are contrary to the law.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
CIVIL CODE SECTION 4095. “COMMON AREA” DEFINED.
(a) “Common area” means the entire common interest development except the separate interests therein. The estate in the common area may be a fee, a life estate, an estate for years, or any combination of the foregoing.
(a) “Common area” means the entire common interest development except the separate interests therein. The estate in the common area may be a fee, a life estate, an estate for years, or any combination of the foregoing.
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/28/2024 2:00 AM
CIVIL CODE SECTION 4095. “COMMON AREA” DEFINED.
(a) “Common area” means the entire common interest development except the separate interests therein. The estate in the common area may be a fee, a life estate, an estate for years, or any combination of the foregoing.
CIVIL CODE SECTION 4095. “COMMON AREA” DEFINED.
(a) “Common area” means the entire common interest development except the separate interests therein. The estate in the common area may be a fee, a life estate, an estate for years, or any combination of the foregoing.
I've read that courts define "common area" as physical land. The court case cited is: Beverly Highlands Homes Association https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Case-Law/Comm-to-Save-BHH-v-Beverly-H
BrianP19 (California)
Posts: 31
Posts: 31
Posted:
Here is what I just did to get a basic estimate:
I used the Secretary of State's Business Registration website to count the number of business entities with the words "Homeowners Association" and "Homes Association" and are registered as California Mutual Benefit Corps but not Common Interest Developments. I got 348 entities. There are another 500 entities with the words "owners association." This brings the total up to around 850. So that is my swag.
I used the Secretary of State's Business Registration website to count the number of business entities with the words "Homeowners Association" and "Homes Association" and are registered as California Mutual Benefit Corps but not Common Interest Developments. I got 348 entities. There are another 500 entities with the words "owners association." This brings the total up to around 850. So that is my swag.
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