San Francisco story

Started by WayneG1 • 19 replies • 276 views

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WayneG1 (California)
Posts: 40

Posted:

In the 1960s a lot of construction was happening in San Francisco. There are currently over 3000 concrete high-rise buildings most of which are condos. Most of the plumbing (drain stacks, baseboard heaters, etc)was done in copper and a combination of age and electrolysis have rotted it away. These buildings have other age related issues like water intrusion, roofing, Windows. Each project is $1 million + and to add insult to injury the city supervisors keep coming up with ordinances like structural studies facade studies and the requirement to put fire alarm horns in every bedroom. Also, full sprinklering is coming. Also, everything that was grandfathered in will no longer be grandfathered and will be required to be updated to current standards and codes. Again millions of dollars I am a building engineer in a 24 story high-rise with these issues. I attend board meetings and other meetings, trying to figure out what to do. Reserves will not begin to cover all these Projects. I guess when these buildings were built, developers and contractors said looks good. These will easily last 50 years and they did. I think it’s time to move to the country. thanks for listening.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WayneG1 on 08/07/2024 3:23 PM
In the 1960s a lot of construction was happening in San Francisco. There are currently over 3000 concrete high-rise buildings most of which are condos. Most of the plumbing (drain stacks, baseboard heaters, etc)was done in copper and a combination of age and electrolysis have rotted it away. These buildings have other age related issues like water intrusion, roofing, Windows. Each project is $1 million + and to add insult to injury the city supervisors keep coming up with ordinances like structural studies facade studies and the requirement to put fire alarm horns in every bedroom. Also, full sprinklering is coming. Also, everything that was grandfathered in will no longer be grandfathered and will be required to be updated to current standards and codes. Again millions of dollars I am a building engineer in a 24 story high-rise with these issues. I attend board meetings and other meetings, trying to figure out what to do. Reserves will not begin to cover all these Projects. I guess when these buildings were built, developers and contractors said looks good. These will easily last 50 years and they did. I think it’s time to move to the country. thanks for listening.

how can a building engineer knowingly move into an old building. Old codos are money pits and not a good invstment.

vis ta vie

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Your next to last sentence sums up half the problem: "I guess when these buildings were built, developers and contractors said looks good." Developers gonna develop and as long as the project sells out, they move on. What happens 60 years or so later ain't their problems. Contractors have to work quickly to get to the next job so who cares if you cut a few corners here and there? You are a building engineer, so you probably know this better than others.

You also said you attended board meetings and heard the conversations about reserves. You didn't say if there have been reserve studies and if this board and their predecessors funded them according to the recommendations. Have assessment increases kept up with inflation? All of that plus changes in the building code do affect maintenance costs (and you DO want your property values to increase, don't you?)

So I don't know what you were expecting. Did you think prices would stay the same forever? You're a building engineer so I would think some of this shouldn't have surprised you.

Anyway...good luck in the country considering droughts, floods, wildfires and all that, I assume you have a plan to deal with all that. You can't always run from problems - you will b run out of places to go and have to deal with them. Good luck to you.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

TristaJ (Texas)
Posts: 96

Posted:

I think he just wanted to vent.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Some of the requirements that Wayne mentions have ben required by the state of CA, not just SF County, for a very long time. The structural studies of elevated balconies, docks, etc, that are partially of wood is a newish state requirement.

Not sure what "full sprinkling" is but if it means the entire bldg., that's been a state requirement for a long time.

If you are an employed by bldg. service co., what the HOA board decides. How the HOA pays for it is the owners' worry. As you know Cali has very strict inspections for safety, etc. & my high rise concrete 22 y.o.bldg.often has to pay for retrofits, et., required by state codes.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

My father was a structural engineer in San Francisco for 50 years. The poster’s situation is unique and does not represent history in general. There are many facets to his problem and he probably has a good argument to preserve grandfathering. But let’s not throw all developers in the same category.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Building codes and safety standards change, often in response to the realization that no, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. See lead in water pipes. When I was a kid, there were no smoke detectors in bedrooms, there were no seat belts in cars, nobody wore helmets while riding a bike, we just got concussions.

Another truism: if given a choice, the vast majority of property owners would much rather keep current expenses low and let tomorrow worry about itself. Short-sighted? You betcha, but explainable when you realize that many condo owners don't plan to remain in their current homes long enough for the consequences of this decision to land on them personally. Tomorrow has arrived for a lot of these aging structures.

Meanwhile the investors are making plans...

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Actually, Wayne's story is also a cautionary tale about due diligence when buying a condo.

Buyers need to treat it as an investment in a business. Square footage and bedrooms and bathrooms are easily come by (at a price, of course). It's what the buyers can't see unless they really dig into the financials and the building's history that will determine if this is a wise investment. This info is harder to come by, takes a while to analyze - and meanwhile in a hot market, somebody else will snap up that particular home.

If our buyer decides instead to just go for it, he's relying on luck - he won't find out the unpleasant details until he's been there for a while.

I agree it's a problem, but I don't have a good solution other than sticking to younger communities. Leave the older, speculative stuff for the investors.

WayneG1 (California)
Posts: 40

Posted:

Full sprinkling means exactly what it says. Sprinkler systems would have to be put throughout the building, including common areas and all residential units. This would include Water Service brought in, fire pumps, and so on and would cost about 2,000,000+. The requirement changed in the 80s for new buildings But it’s always been grandfathered in for older buildings until now
I understand how it’s paid for is the HOA concern just commenting on their behalf my point in general is as these buildings are reaching their end of life as some engineers say the city needs to come up with a plan to help owners

WayneG1 (California)
Posts: 40

Posted:

This situation is not unique. This condition exist throughout the city. Many of these buildings or at least their infrastructures are considered by engineers as having reached end of life. It’s not about maintenance anymore. It’s about how to move forward they give these buildings a second life.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Point taken, but the problem is no one can predict the future. You simply don't know what will happen in terms of homeowner tastes and needs, changes in building codes emergence of different building materials and techniques, etc, and neither do I or anyone else. As for the city, are you suggesting the older buildings be allowed to function under the old rules (because the current owners can't afford upgrades)? Some of tge changes you mention appear to involve new safety requirements - why should new owners live with increased safety risk just because the building is over 40?

And if the city should do so m ething, wgat would you suggest? Any estimates on costs? You know this will result in people getting pissed at the thought of higher taxes, followed by "why should I have to pay higher taxes because those people didn't but moved to this building anyway? Similar to what people say when told their assessments will increase to cover higher costs, especially insurance, and to continue funding reserves (no they may not cover everything, but you have to start somewhere). What would you say if asked these questions?

Since you're a building engineer, perhaps you can develop some long term approaches and attend some city council meeting with your suggestions. You may point out some things they haven't considered or at least get a chabge as to when the buildings must meet the new requirements

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

hi,

It's just the lifecycle of an area's housing. Back in the day the wealthy built brownstones. Our city's housing went downward in the post industrial abandonment of cities. The suburbs were the thing. Decades ago you can pick up a crack brownstone for a song. Times have changed and now the prices are through the roof. The city passed any multi family dwelling four stories and taller have to go through an exterior facade inspection. The state in response to the Champlain tragedy has mandatory reserves and structural inspections. It is basically forcing condos to wake up to the fact of maintaining the property. NYC swankiest addresses are close to 100 years old and yes it is the Monopoly Park Places. Yes the building are very well maintained and the most expensive properties in the world. Our city is reeling with property tax increase coupled with the new regulations on condo rules with reserves. We are experiencing turbo gentrification. I feel for you you but it's the old adage bull**** walks and money talks. Buried in your post I think you do have a point about the end of life and the real end of life. That gets complicated and depends on many factors including scheduled maintenance and being able to prolong the life of systems. That is where someone needs to be very adept and be on top of the lifecycle of building systems specific to your building with scheduled maintenance. Do understand the removal of the grandfather clause is causing a large financial strain but at the same time a sprinkler system is the best way to fight a fire and save lives.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I wasn't joking when I said that the investors are making plans. They may be a solution for communities whose owners can't afford the upkeep, for whatever reason. Of course this means that the owners will lose those homes, which will be turned into rentals.

As Gregory said, it's the cycle of housing. We're seeing similar issues in Florida. Between poorly maintained buildings, laws changing in response to the Surfside condominium collapse, the insurance crisis, and current owners howling that they can't afford the higher assessment, I don't see many options aside from investors buying up these properties. Which won't solve the problem of owners who can't afford to live in their homes any more. In fact, you could argue that they never could afford to live in their homes. The only way they managed it was by deferring maintenance.

So developers develop, and buyers run their properties into the ground over time. Then the investors salvage the properties that are still sound enough to make this a viable option - or they tear down the dicey ones and the developers re-develop the land. It's certainly tidy, if you ignore the drama and misery...

WayneG1 (California)
Posts: 40

Posted:

Many of these buildings built in the 60s started life as apartment buildings and were converted to condos in the 80s. The 60s saw a huge construction in the city.(There are many hundred-year-old buildings in the city that seem to be in better shape. Better Construction practices? better materials?)
There is an issue of deferred maintenance. Owners have the attitude if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it and then one day it’s too late, which is what happened in Florida. A36 story high-rise in San Francisco That was only four years old Had a catastrophic flood with a pipe burst on the top floor and flooded the whole building Property management knew of the issues but deferred work to save money . But the issue still exists, much of the infrastructure has reached end of life and assessments would be huge. So far one building I know of , The city has called the owners to a hearing because they cannot afford to pay for city mandated, structural repairs and could be facing red tag. Developers are going to offer owners pennies on the dollar and owners are gonna lose their shirts. Being a country boy I don’t understand, but there seems to be a huge draw for these buildings being mid century something and people overlook condition for the architecture. Anyway, bottom line is end of life cycle. Where do they go from here? (The projects that need to be done in the building I’m in come out to about $8 million, reserves are at 3 million)

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

I was on a reserve study call and the verbiage is changing. It's routine or scheduled maintenance, repair, and replace. The routine or scheduled maintenance is to set aside money for caulking projects every seven years and execution of that every seven years. A repair is actually a defect that is spotted and needs a repair at that moment of time regardless if there is money set aside or not. Hopefully the root cause is found. The reserves are pointing to the replace for the end of life time of systems. Here is my take on deferred maintenance. It is another word for "absent" maintenance. it you are not doing scheduled maintenance and replacement then "deferred maintenance" is really absence in doing the work. No money or effort in getting something done when there is evidence or best practice that should be getting something done. That is my own take on it.

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

I reread your post and have to say it's money time. My state passed a law and mandatory reserve study. We have no reserves. All current owners will be putting away money into reserves and we have ten year time line to get reserves 100% funded. Florida I believe has a similar law. Condo dues will go up over 100%. Sheer neglect in the past is catching up. It's basically move or pay up.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

CS requires a site-visit reserve study every 3 years and a low-level every year. BUT, there's no requirement in CA as to how much reserves must be funded. Yet.

It's better to avoid the use of the word "defect," Gregory, which refers to something that was installed, or applied, or built INCORRECTLY. Whole different animal for HOAs. In reserve. studies, there are, basically, repairs and replacements.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Gregory and Cathy summed it up nicely - the question now is what will you and your neighbors do? There are no easy answers and I don't see the city skipping out on enforcing the rule. If the older buildings are grandfathered,your master insurance may balk at covering you if you don't make the necessary repairs and Jack up your rates or drop you. Then what do you do?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

The thing, is, Shelia, I don't think the OP is an Owners but, instead, a bldg. engineer.

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

i agree Kerry the word defect and your definition is accurate. The repair has a long list of causes with it and it can include defects but also there is a host of other things that can case a repair.

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