GaryF3 (Florida)
Posts: 1
Posts: 1
Posted:
My HOA is trying to raise HOA dues of rented units by $50 each month. So essentially, if an owner that lives in their condo pays $200/month but a unit that is rented pays $250/month. Can they do this?
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Can HOA impose higher dues for Rental Units?
Started by GaryF3 • 21 replies • 2536 views
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JC3
Posts: 290
Posts: 290
Posted:
Sounds like discrimination to me.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Hi Gary and welcome,
Below is the Statute from 718 for you to review. Read it and let me know what you feel is the interpretation. I'd say "NO" they cannot.
718.4015 Condominium leases; escalation clauses.--
(1) It is declared that the public policy of this state prohibits the inclusion or enforcement of escalation clauses in land leases or other leases or agreements for recreational facilities, land, or other commonly used facilities serving residential condominiums, and such clauses are hereby declared void for public policy. For the purposes of this section, an escalation clause is any clause in a condominium lease or agreement which provides that the rental under the lease or agreement shall increase at the same percentage rate as any nationally recognized and conveniently available commodity or consumer price index.
(2) This public policy prohibits the inclusion or enforcement of such escalation clauses in leases related to condominiums for which the declaration of condominium was recorded on or after June 4, 1975; it prohibits the enforcement of escalation clauses in leases related to condominiums for which the declaration of condominium was recorded prior to June 4, 1975, but which have been refused enforcement on the grounds that the parties agreed to be bound by subsequent amendments to the Florida Statutes or which have been found to be void because of a finding that such lease is unconscionable or which have been refused enforcement on the basis of the application of former s. 711.231 or former s. 718.401(8); and it prohibits any further escalation of rental fees after October 1, 1988, pursuant to escalation clauses in leases related to condominiums for which the declaration was recorded prior to June 4, 1975.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
I agree they can't just lay a blanket over munits tha rent and charge them more. However if a rental property has tenants that receive services from the associations that is nor normally supplied by the management, they can charge for these services. Most don't, mine don't but they could and should. Anytime our manager has to make a trip to a unit or answer information that the owners is obligated to supply, a fee should be charged.
NL (Virginia)
Posts: 43
Posts: 43
Posted:
Rental units always create more work for the HOA - not only do you have to deal with the owner but the tenant, so you get double the work involved - I see no problem with charging a little more to cover the extra cost and work involved.
JC3
Posts: 290
Posts: 290
Posted:
Why is the board or management dealing with the tenant? They should be dealing with the owner, who then takes care of the tenant.
NL (Virginia)
Posts: 43
Posts: 43
Posted:
In Virginia u deal with both.
HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posts: 906
Posted:
"In Virginia u deal with both." Can you explain a little more?
Your contract is with the owner. It is the owner's responsibility to control the renter. You have all the tools you need to enforce your covenants with the owner.
If you are going to start charging on the basis of time spent on a particular unit, then those who never require any time spent on them should be issued a credit. Actually, I like that: Make the annual charge for each unit based on the time spent on that unit. Sounds like a can of worms to me, and kind of arbitrary because they are a renter. From what I've read here, home owners themselves can create a lot of problems requiring extra time spent. Why aren't they assessed extra? We have renters that most people don't even know are renters, who never cause any extra problems. To inflict an extra fee because the unit is a rental sounds like gouging to me. If you're going to charge for extra time, charge everyone that requires it.
Your contract is with the owner. It is the owner's responsibility to control the renter. You have all the tools you need to enforce your covenants with the owner.
If you are going to start charging on the basis of time spent on a particular unit, then those who never require any time spent on them should be issued a credit. Actually, I like that: Make the annual charge for each unit based on the time spent on that unit. Sounds like a can of worms to me, and kind of arbitrary because they are a renter. From what I've read here, home owners themselves can create a lot of problems requiring extra time spent. Why aren't they assessed extra? We have renters that most people don't even know are renters, who never cause any extra problems. To inflict an extra fee because the unit is a rental sounds like gouging to me. If you're going to charge for extra time, charge everyone that requires it.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Harold,
Tough subject.
I can speak of living in a condominium at the same place for 18 years in a resort area. We have gone from 20 % rentals to about 70 % rentals over that time. I agree with what I gave read on the subject. 70% rentals is NOT the most healthy status for any condo that is designed and built for residenttial use. I don't intend to be argumentive but until you live (here) 24/7, you don't have a clue how the rental market influences your life style. I am not anti-renter, but I am convinced without the prescence of full time residents the association would change drastically.
A small example: We have a courtyard in the middle of our 65 unit ocean front condo. Deer is a problem and will eat up a ton of money in a night. Our structure is built in a manner that any access by dear has to be up and down steps. Again we are having a deer problem. Last evening we came home around 8:30 and there was a deer in the courtyard. I called my neighbor and we both went out and spent maybe 20 minutes trying to find the deer. Now the first thing a renter would do is run and get something to feed the deer, which encourages more deer. I would not want to guess how many times I have showed renters to their units and explained about our island and where things are located, and chased the kids out of the garage that were riding nike, et, etc, and this is a constant demand. When you read this you think, oh poor baby, he was asked a question by one of those nasty renters. As I said, you don't have clue and probably never will, that's just the way it is. A have a beighbor that has been here now a couple years, after renting out his units for years. I e-mailed them all the time and we talked about what it is like living here. I told him the same thing I am telling you. He didn't believe it either. He and his wife coming here to live has been a tremendous benift to this complex, very active, very concerned. But, he says now, I was right, he just didn't get it till he moved here full time.
A healthy rental population is a re4sidential condo in a resort area should not be above 20 %. A HEALTHY population, meaning all owners in the condo would benefit. But try to convince a buyer of this when the Real estate agent is saying, oh, buy this place and rent it out and make all your payments. Big Fat Lie, but that sells real estate and creates turn-over in ownership. Out of 65 units we have 7 full time owners, all love it here, all would like to have a Healthier population and all are living an experience you don't know nothing about (normally). The strange part of all this is, it is an absolute wonderful place to live full time, smack on the ocean and we can't get buyers that are interested because most all the marketing is to "get rich renting". Now all will scream and yell and say the realators are ready to sell full time property as well as investment property. I say, then why do we have the unhealthy ratio we have now.
Check this place out www.villageofnewhaven.info.
Tough subject.
I can speak of living in a condominium at the same place for 18 years in a resort area. We have gone from 20 % rentals to about 70 % rentals over that time. I agree with what I gave read on the subject. 70% rentals is NOT the most healthy status for any condo that is designed and built for residenttial use. I don't intend to be argumentive but until you live (here) 24/7, you don't have a clue how the rental market influences your life style. I am not anti-renter, but I am convinced without the prescence of full time residents the association would change drastically.
A small example: We have a courtyard in the middle of our 65 unit ocean front condo. Deer is a problem and will eat up a ton of money in a night. Our structure is built in a manner that any access by dear has to be up and down steps. Again we are having a deer problem. Last evening we came home around 8:30 and there was a deer in the courtyard. I called my neighbor and we both went out and spent maybe 20 minutes trying to find the deer. Now the first thing a renter would do is run and get something to feed the deer, which encourages more deer. I would not want to guess how many times I have showed renters to their units and explained about our island and where things are located, and chased the kids out of the garage that were riding nike, et, etc, and this is a constant demand. When you read this you think, oh poor baby, he was asked a question by one of those nasty renters. As I said, you don't have clue and probably never will, that's just the way it is. A have a beighbor that has been here now a couple years, after renting out his units for years. I e-mailed them all the time and we talked about what it is like living here. I told him the same thing I am telling you. He didn't believe it either. He and his wife coming here to live has been a tremendous benift to this complex, very active, very concerned. But, he says now, I was right, he just didn't get it till he moved here full time.
A healthy rental population is a re4sidential condo in a resort area should not be above 20 %. A HEALTHY population, meaning all owners in the condo would benefit. But try to convince a buyer of this when the Real estate agent is saying, oh, buy this place and rent it out and make all your payments. Big Fat Lie, but that sells real estate and creates turn-over in ownership. Out of 65 units we have 7 full time owners, all love it here, all would like to have a Healthier population and all are living an experience you don't know nothing about (normally). The strange part of all this is, it is an absolute wonderful place to live full time, smack on the ocean and we can't get buyers that are interested because most all the marketing is to "get rich renting". Now all will scream and yell and say the realators are ready to sell full time property as well as investment property. I say, then why do we have the unhealthy ratio we have now.
Check this place out www.villageofnewhaven.info.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
GaryF3 - While opinions on the subject of escalation pricing are abound it's the law you should use as a basis for your decision. DonnaS has provided you the law 718.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Everyone,
PLease reread the original post as he is asking about higher Dues for rentals. Florida Statutes say, absolutely no to charge them higher dues than the other member occupied units.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Gerald,
It's more than the law you have to contend with, in fact, everything else comes after the "health of the community." Also I doubt Florida Law is accepted in all states.
Also, I believe, in Gary's issue, the ability to change his documents and include a rental clause with certain restriction alreadys exists. I see his problem as not knowing how and trying to get a handle on what other people are doing. As always, it seems, we are only throwing out suggestions as oppossed to trying to apply specific laws. Not that the Laws are unimportant, that is not the case. It's deciding what is best, and then trying to find a way to make a change, either complying with the Law or working around the Law.
It's more than the law you have to contend with, in fact, everything else comes after the "health of the community." Also I doubt Florida Law is accepted in all states.
Also, I believe, in Gary's issue, the ability to change his documents and include a rental clause with certain restriction alreadys exists. I see his problem as not knowing how and trying to get a handle on what other people are doing. As always, it seems, we are only throwing out suggestions as oppossed to trying to apply specific laws. Not that the Laws are unimportant, that is not the case. It's deciding what is best, and then trying to find a way to make a change, either complying with the Law or working around the Law.
PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
GaryF3: Why does your HOA feel that the owner who rents warrants a higher fee?
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
RobertR1 - GaryF is in Florida, hence the Florida law that DonnaS sighted applies. He can change his docs all he wants, Florida law supersedes.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
GeraldT,
Not the issue, at least not as I understand it. The subject seems to be, who takes care of rental units and their tenants.
Just for a moment stop and think what everyone is saying. The resposibility of the renters is the owner. That's all well and good and who do you think has to call the owners or management for renter problems. I have even had renters offer to pay me to carry their bag up to their unit after I was nice enouigh to show them where it was. If someone wanted to break into half the units here, they could look under the mat for a key to open the door. Who tells the tenent where their p[arking space is, who tells a tenant what to to go if they have a problem and no one answers the # that are listed in the units. Who calls the cops when they get out of hand. My place is in a resort. It is not a hotel nor is it designed to be rental property, it was designed as a residential development. Don't be so harsh if you have not spent a few years taking care of someone elses renters. We have 7 fulltime out of 65 units, who does all this stuff that everyone says, Well all you have to do is, etc etc etc? Who maintains order and security here? Want to guess?
Not the issue, at least not as I understand it. The subject seems to be, who takes care of rental units and their tenants.
Just for a moment stop and think what everyone is saying. The resposibility of the renters is the owner. That's all well and good and who do you think has to call the owners or management for renter problems. I have even had renters offer to pay me to carry their bag up to their unit after I was nice enouigh to show them where it was. If someone wanted to break into half the units here, they could look under the mat for a key to open the door. Who tells the tenent where their p[arking space is, who tells a tenant what to to go if they have a problem and no one answers the # that are listed in the units. Who calls the cops when they get out of hand. My place is in a resort. It is not a hotel nor is it designed to be rental property, it was designed as a residential development. Don't be so harsh if you have not spent a few years taking care of someone elses renters. We have 7 fulltime out of 65 units, who does all this stuff that everyone says, Well all you have to do is, etc etc etc? Who maintains order and security here? Want to guess?
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
RobertR1 - What is not the issue? While opinions on the subject of escalation pricing are abound it's the law you should use as a basis for your decision. DonnaS has provided GaryF the Florida law 718. She has also stated Florida Statutes say, absolutely no to charge them higher dues than the other member occupied units.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Robert,
Gerald and I have pointed out that the original posted inquiry was that--
"can an association charge higher dues to the rental units and different to owner occupied units." The answer is NO!! and I posted the Statutes re: this.
I know that we always get off on tangents on some of these long threads and whenever any renter subject comes up, the passion juices begin to flow because this is such a Hot Button subject. But we needed to give a good answer to the O.P. and I think that we covered it well. Thanks, BFF Donna
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
One poster says dues another says fees and I thought I was talking about charges for association services.
Lets say fees and dues are the same for everyone. If your tenent goes out and cuts all the hydgrenea blooms off a bush (has happened), what do "you" do. Well lets first define "you." This you is probably going to be a fulltime owner that notices things like that, because 70 % of the units are rental and most of the rest are absente owners. So this "you" for the largest part falls on fulltime owners. So here I am this "you" and I have noted this violation. If they are in the act of pruning the shurbry I tell them to stop. Then they tell me they paid big money to rent here and a few flowers aren't going to hurt. So tempers rise and he/she picks up the blooms and goes into the unit. Now I have spent 1/2 hour in this already, the Blooms that I tended over the years are gone the tenent is gone, so this "you" calls the manager. If I can reach the manger and if the manager is free he comes over and questions me about what happened. More time, the manager goes to the tenents door and if they are nice they may or may not answer his questions. After the manager is satisfied that I am indeed telling him the facts, he calls the owner, that, let's say, lives in Utah or some such. After he is able to contact the owner the manager's job is not finished. He may have to go back and notify the tenent that he has violated the rules and may be asked to leave, more time. Then the owner calls his unit and then calls the manageer that he has informed the tenent he will not tolerate this king of conduct. The tenent says where do you live Mr. Owner? The Owner says Utah and if you don't stop acting like this I will have you evicted. But first I want to contact this "you" and make sure he is just not causing trouble, so he calls this "you" and by this time this "you" has had his fill of people disrupting his life and takes to drink and beating his wife.
I am not referring to different dues or different fees. I am referring to the price of poker is not free, and if I want to have my piece and quiet, I have to put up with someone's elses problems.
Understand, I have done this for so long it doesn't really bother me and maybe it has to be that way, I don't know what to do about it, expect the owners to realize what is happening. If I had my druthers, there would be no more than 20% rentals. Renters in any community, if left to their own, will result in lower property values and property to deteriorate. I did not make that up.
There is nothing biased or hostile about it. If you lived near or in the community that had a rental property you owned, you could service your tenents. If you don't you rely on the management of the Regime or a Rental Agent that is as absent as you are and not likely to give this high priority, tha'ts just the way it is.
Lets say fees and dues are the same for everyone. If your tenent goes out and cuts all the hydgrenea blooms off a bush (has happened), what do "you" do. Well lets first define "you." This you is probably going to be a fulltime owner that notices things like that, because 70 % of the units are rental and most of the rest are absente owners. So this "you" for the largest part falls on fulltime owners. So here I am this "you" and I have noted this violation. If they are in the act of pruning the shurbry I tell them to stop. Then they tell me they paid big money to rent here and a few flowers aren't going to hurt. So tempers rise and he/she picks up the blooms and goes into the unit. Now I have spent 1/2 hour in this already, the Blooms that I tended over the years are gone the tenent is gone, so this "you" calls the manager. If I can reach the manger and if the manager is free he comes over and questions me about what happened. More time, the manager goes to the tenents door and if they are nice they may or may not answer his questions. After the manager is satisfied that I am indeed telling him the facts, he calls the owner, that, let's say, lives in Utah or some such. After he is able to contact the owner the manager's job is not finished. He may have to go back and notify the tenent that he has violated the rules and may be asked to leave, more time. Then the owner calls his unit and then calls the manageer that he has informed the tenent he will not tolerate this king of conduct. The tenent says where do you live Mr. Owner? The Owner says Utah and if you don't stop acting like this I will have you evicted. But first I want to contact this "you" and make sure he is just not causing trouble, so he calls this "you" and by this time this "you" has had his fill of people disrupting his life and takes to drink and beating his wife.
I am not referring to different dues or different fees. I am referring to the price of poker is not free, and if I want to have my piece and quiet, I have to put up with someone's elses problems.
Understand, I have done this for so long it doesn't really bother me and maybe it has to be that way, I don't know what to do about it, expect the owners to realize what is happening. If I had my druthers, there would be no more than 20% rentals. Renters in any community, if left to their own, will result in lower property values and property to deteriorate. I did not make that up.
There is nothing biased or hostile about it. If you lived near or in the community that had a rental property you owned, you could service your tenents. If you don't you rely on the management of the Regime or a Rental Agent that is as absent as you are and not likely to give this high priority, tha'ts just the way it is.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
RobertR1 - Technically speaking a Hydrangea bush will not be destroyed by the careful cutting of a few blooms, their habit is meant to withstand the cut. Hydrangeas planted for townhouses that don't have more reserved common element areas is not wise. What I don't understand about your scenario is that you tended to these common elements but the renter isn't allowed to. Mind you, the renter is technically the owner, the owner has to take full responsibility. So substitute, what would you do if the renter was really the owner?
Be that landscape and association scenario reality as it factually is what you are basically saying is someone does something to a common element they are technically not supposed to do. Protocol is for the PM or governing Board to deal with the owner. End of story.
Be that landscape and association scenario reality as it factually is what you are basically saying is someone does something to a common element they are technically not supposed to do. Protocol is for the PM or governing Board to deal with the owner. End of story.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Gerald,
Your a "ticket" Gerald. I don't know how you got your information but our Board at that time were all absentee owners and of the five members, three or more rents their unit. Over the past 18 years we had one board member that died, a dear friend, that lived here full time. The PM is not on site 24/7, more like 3 or 4/6 days.
Any ho, I'm tired arguing with you, no hard feelings, I suppose you think you know how it works. But you really don't.
Now....you have the last word and I'm off this thread.
Life is too short Gerald.
Your a "ticket" Gerald. I don't know how you got your information but our Board at that time were all absentee owners and of the five members, three or more rents their unit. Over the past 18 years we had one board member that died, a dear friend, that lived here full time. The PM is not on site 24/7, more like 3 or 4/6 days.
Any ho, I'm tired arguing with you, no hard feelings, I suppose you think you know how it works. But you really don't.
Now....you have the last word and I'm off this thread.
Life is too short Gerald.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
RobertR1 - The manager or acting agent deals with and resolves the matter with the owner, not the tenant. That is how it works. If not, and everyone including the kitchen sink is involved then everyone gets what they deserve.
HaroldS (Arizona)
Posts: 906
Posts: 906
Posted:
Absolutely! That's why "management" comes from manage. They're getting the bucks. Why are you doing all the work?
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