Survey for board members before each board meeting to speed things up.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

any way to get board members to come to a meeting prepared to discuss stuff. No one seems to do any homework. Was thinking of just doing a pre meeting survey on motions, see if anyone had questions. If everyone was for an item, or against an item we could quickly vote that way at the meeting and only spend time on motions that were not unanimous? was thinking of using google forms.

If people dont' do thier survey befroe the meeting I will motion at the beginning of the meeting for people to do the survey first.

If board meetings were quick and easy more people would volunteer is my final goal. Since we have a new Secretary, next meeting will just go over governing docs and splitting up the work load between the 3 of us.

vis ta vie

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Motions and votes for them should be done AT the meeting, not before. I understand your wanting people to come prepared so the meeting doesn't take all night, but this could be a slippery slope leading to board members voting on association issues outside of official meetings and you know how much trouble that causes.

It's better to send out the agenda and action items - all board members are responsible for at least one action item. They are adults and are expected to show up, show up on time, discuss their action item(s) at the appropriate time, participate in discussions, and vote. That's what board members are supposed to do and if something isn't done, they should explain why - in front of everyone. It's not about embarrassing people, but holding them accountable.

All of that said, people do have unique styles when it comes to meetings. You said no one seems to do any homework - are they not reading the materials? Are they receiving too many things to read - if it's a complicated issue, it takes time to get through it, and just because you can do it doesn't mean they can. Maybe people have been given tasks they don't have the skill set for and should be trained. That may also take some time because people don't learn at the same pace. You have to meet people where they are and guide them to use their talents to do the tasks, not dictate how it should be done.

Finally, board members have a life outside the association, and it may be their lives got in the way of preparing for a meeting. They should admit that when it happens and perhaps consider if serving on the board is too much for them at this time. Your community is self-managed, and I know that was done to save money, but it also means board members will have to do more stuff besides showing up once a month and deciding how to spend money. It's ok to find to do that more efficiently, but that doesn't mean you won't have to do some work and apply careful thought.

It may be time for an executive session to discuss what the current board can and can't do, along with expectations (theirs may be different from yours, so be prepared to listen.) If there are some tasks no one has time for, ask for community volunteers. Depending on the task, it may not take very long and would be a good way to introduce people to the inner workings of the board - and you might find new board members that way!)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Wendy,
As the board president I usually know the items that could be controversial that are on the agenda. If for some reason an item is one that the board is completely split on, I may take the time to talk to both side prior to the meeting to both understand the reasons for the differences and see if a compromise can be put together. This is not done as a group, so I see no problem with these calls. I also think a good debate during a board meeting is important. When everyone votes 5 to 0 on all topics it can look as the are all following the leader.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 07/30/2024 7:08 AM
Wendy,
As the board president I usually know the items that could be controversial that are on the agenda. If for some reason an item is one that the board is completely split on, I may take the time to talk to both side prior to the meeting to both understand the reasons for the differences and see if a compromise can be put together. This is not done as a group, so I see no problem with these calls. I also think a good debate during a board meeting is important. When everyone votes 5 to 0 on all topics it can look as the are all following the leader.

It’s called a serial meeting and would be illegal in California.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Shelia wrote “it may be time for an executive session to discuss what the current board can and can't do, along with expectations (theirs may be different from yours, so be prepared to listen.) If there are some tasks no one has time for, ask for community volunteers.”

Discussing those subjects in executive session would also be illegal in California.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Terri,
I served on a Ca. board for 8 years and the last 4 as president. This was during the time the new meeting changes were made. I am not familiar with the term Serial meeting I must admit. Having a conversation with a board member is not illegal. We are also owners and being on our board does not stop our rights as humans.

The way I understood the law was communicating as a group outside of the meetings was no longer allowed and decisions could not be made before a open meeting. I am obviously paraphrasing the language.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

One way to get the Board members to come to the meeting prepared is to ask each of them questions to seek their thoughts. I found that they came prepared and the introverts had a voice like the board member who enjoys talking.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

One way to get the Board members to come to the meeting prepared is to ask each of them questions to seek their thoughts. I found that they came prepared and the introverts had a voice like the board member who enjoys talking.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

So far as I know, MarkM, there still is no "serial meeting" verbiage in CA Civil Code about HOAs. (The Open Meeting Act or the "Act."). Perhaps Terri can cite it for us.

If NC is an open meeting state, Wendy, I'd say that a quorum of the board meeting to discuss the content & opinions re: agenda items prior to the open meeting isn't legal and must be avoided. Years ago, we had a Board like that here in our open meeting state, that'd "decide" before the open meeting. The open meeting became a farce of motions & votes-- a rubber stamping facade of an open meeting. No discussion, debate, deliberation. It was one reason why they were voted out at the next annual meeting.

Do directors get a board packet or directors report with all of the back sound materials in it and, say, estimates of costs to fix something or purchase something 3 or so days before the board meeting, Wendy?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/30/2024 10:35 AM
So far as I know, MarkM, there still is no "serial meeting" verbiage in CA Civil Code about HOAs. (The Open Meeting Act or the "Act."). Perhaps Terri can cite it for us.

If NC is an open meeting state, Wendy, I'd say that a quorum of the board meeting to discuss the content & opinions re: agenda items prior to the open meeting isn't legal and must be avoided. Years ago, we had a Board like that here in our open meeting state, that'd "decide" before the open meeting. The open meeting became a farce of motions & votes-- a rubber stamping facade of an open meeting. No discussion, debate, deliberation. It was one reason why they were voted out at the next annual meeting.

Do directors get a board packet or directors report with all of the back sound materials in it and, say, estimates of costs to fix something or purchase something 3 or so days before the board meeting, Wendy?

NC is not an open meeting state but I'm amending the bylaws so it will basically have open meeting rules.
directors get agenda minimum 1 weeks in advance, more often 2week ahead of time.

The last 4 people that were on the board did nothing outside of board meetings. Secretary even stopped taking minutes and then jsut didn't even show up or give a reason for not showing up. Im noticing a repeating trend, the few people that want to join the board are hawkish about enforcing violations, but dont' want to lift a finger even to hire someone else to do the violations. IN general members' think that is all an HOA does is do compliance violations. The vast amoutn of my work is just seeing over the budget, making sure grass gets cut, and now it seems traning new board members.

I am not hawkish about violations at all, but I spent the time to make a few training videos, a training quiz, an interactive webpage to report violations and pictures to using a cell phone and a way to take that data and mail out violations via online print and mail company. IMHO its just as good as Hoa life.

Oh that's too much work is the vibe I get, fine , then hire it out. It's not gonna be that hard to find someone to do it at the right price. We certainly dont' need to pay $16K to a mgt company to do a violations check once a year.
but they either can't do the research or are too lazy to research who to hire.

vis ta vie

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 07/30/2024 11:19 AM

NC is not an open meeting state but I'm amending the bylaws so it will basically have open meeting rules.
directors get agenda minimum 1 weeks in advance, more often 2week ahead of time.

The last 4 people that were on the board did nothing outside of board meetings. Secretary even stopped taking minutes and then jsut didn't even show up or give a reason for not showing up. Im noticing a repeating trend, the few people that want to join the board are hawkish about enforcing violations, but dont' want to lift a finger even to hire someone else to do the violations. IN general members' think that is all an HOA does is do compliance violations. The vast amoutn of my work is just seeing over the budget, making sure grass gets cut, and now it seems traning new board members.

I am not hawkish about violations at all, but I spent the time to make a few training videos, a training quiz, an interactive webpage to report violations and pictures to using a cell phone and a way to take that data and mail out violations via online print and mail company. IMHO its just as good as Hoa life.

Oh that's too much work is the vibe I get, fine , then hire it out. It's not gonna be that hard to find someone to do it at the right price. We certainly dont' need to pay $16K to a mgt company to do a violations check once a year.
but they either can't do the research or are too lazy to research who to hire.

Yup.

I had a feeling from your last conversation that you might be doing too much for your community. Before I stepped down from my board, I was treasurer, newsletter editor (which also required going to a store for photocopying and then sticking the thing in people’s doors or behind their mailboxes (because you can’t put stuff in mailboxes without postage). I also attended CAI meetings and summarized that information for the other board members.

It got to the place where I was spending as much time on HOA stuff as work, not to mention trying to maintain my own house, and burnout set in to where I didn’t want to attend meetings anymore because I got tired of my colleagues just sitting there and not doing much of anything else. The only person who was working almost as hard as me was the president, who stepped down a year after I did because he and his family sold their home and moved out.

I think this is where you’re at or fast approaching it, especially since your community is self-managed. I’m telling you if you don’t get hold of this, you will burn out or something will get messed up and everyone will blame you. You don’t have to be everyone’s superwoman, as the song says.

I don’t remember how many people are on your board, but it seems to me you need at least one person to help with the budget and someone else to oversee landscaping (which might not take much time if you hire a company to do the work). The association can buy a group CAI membership and board members can take advantage of the online courses at their leisure.

Your last conversation concerned the manual entry of the paper checks – if that’s too much, hire the damned bookkeeper and tell folks the budget will be adjusted accordingly. Let the paper check writers explain in front of everyone why they do what they do and let the chips fall where they may.

Such is life with self-management – the work still needs to be done and done correctly, and if you don’t want to pay a property manager, you either find a volunteer to do it (which has its own issues, as Cathy has noted several times) or just pay someone to do it. If people squawk, they can step up and do the work themselves. It’s great to save $16K on property management fees, but sometimes people don’t always realize what they might be giving up. That’s why HOA decisions can’t only be about the money.

To wit: you have people who want more rule enforcement, THEY can walk around the community and note which problems seem to be more pervasive. If it’s overgrown lawns, they can take photos with their cell phone cameras, save them to the cloud, develop violation notices themselves (there are enough examples on the web without using AI) and mail them. If that’s too much work, find someone who will do this for you, pay them, and adjust assessments accordingly – again. You can’t always have your cake and eat it too and the sooner the homeowners understand that the better. Actually, it might dawn on some of them that if they paid their assessments electronically and cut the damned lawn, none of this would be an issue or an expense.

Meanwhile, you need to set priorities for yourself, and don’t be afraid to step away to relax. You were working on rewriting the bylaws, using AI to develop violation letters, and proposing that paper check writers pay for the privilege. Decide on what you want to do and focus on that. Everything else can be a project for the other board members and if they don’t want to do it, you may have to accept that it won’t get done. When people ask why it’s not being done, say you don’t have enough volunteers and the board is only X number of people and can’t do it alone.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 07/30/2024 1:12 PM

Posted By WendyM5 on 07/30/2024 11:19 AM

NC is not an open meeting state but I'm amending the bylaws so it will basically have open meeting rules.
directors get agenda minimum 1 weeks in advance, more often 2week ahead of time.

The last 4 people that were on the board did nothing outside of board meetings. Secretary even stopped taking minutes and then jsut didn't even show up or give a reason for not showing up. Im noticing a repeating trend, the few people that want to join the board are hawkish about enforcing violations, but dont' want to lift a finger even to hire someone else to do the violations. IN general members' think that is all an HOA does is do compliance violations. The vast amoutn of my work is just seeing over the budget, making sure grass gets cut, and now it seems traning new board members.

I am not hawkish about violations at all, but I spent the time to make a few training videos, a training quiz, an interactive webpage to report violations and pictures to using a cell phone and a way to take that data and mail out violations via online print and mail company. IMHO its just as good as Hoa life.

Oh that's too much work is the vibe I get, fine , then hire it out. It's not gonna be that hard to find someone to do it at the right price. We certainly dont' need to pay $16K to a mgt company to do a violations check once a year.
but they either can't do the research or are too lazy to research who to hire.

Yup.

I had a feeling from your last conversation that you might be doing too much for your community. Before I stepped down from my board, I was treasurer, newsletter editor (which also required going to a store for photocopying and then sticking the thing in people’s doors or behind their mailboxes (because you can’t put stuff in mailboxes without postage). I also attended CAI meetings and summarized that information for the other board members.

It got to the place where I was spending as much time on HOA stuff as work, not to mention trying to maintain my own house, and burnout set in to where I didn’t want to attend meetings anymore because I got tired of my colleagues just sitting there and not doing much of anything else. The only person who was working almost as hard as me was the president, who stepped down a year after I did because he and his family sold their home and moved out.

I think this is where you’re at or fast approaching it, especially since your community is self-managed. I’m telling you if you don’t get hold of this, you will burn out or something will get messed up and everyone will blame you. You don’t have to be everyone’s superwoman, as the song says.

I don’t remember how many people are on your board, but it seems to me you need at least one person to help with the budget and someone else to oversee landscaping (which might not take much time if you hire a company to do the work). The association can buy a group CAI membership and board members can take advantage of the online courses at their leisure.

Your last conversation concerned the manual entry of the paper checks – if that’s too much, hire the damned bookkeeper and tell folks the budget will be adjusted accordingly. Let the paper check writers explain in front of everyone why they do what they do and let the chips fall where they may.

Such is life with self-management – the work still needs to be done and done correctly, and if you don’t want to pay a property manager, you either find a volunteer to do it (which has its own issues, as Cathy has noted several times) or just pay someone to do it. If people squawk, they can step up and do the work themselves. It’s great to save $16K on property management fees, but sometimes people don’t always realize what they might be giving up. That’s why HOA decisions can’t only be about the money.

To wit: you have people who want more rule enforcement, THEY can walk around the community and note which problems seem to be more pervasive. If it’s overgrown lawns, they can take photos with their cell phone cameras, save them to the cloud, develop violation notices themselves (there are enough examples on the web without using AI) and mail them. If that’s too much work, find someone who will do this for you, pay them, and adjust assessments accordingly – again. You can’t always have your cake and eat it too and the sooner the homeowners understand that the better. Actually, it might dawn on some of them that if they paid their assessments electronically and cut the damned lawn, none of this would be an issue or an expense.

Meanwhile, you need to set priorities for yourself, and don’t be afraid to step away to relax. You were working on rewriting the bylaws, using AI to develop violation letters, and proposing that paper check writers pay for the privilege. Decide on what you want to do and focus on that. Everything else can be a project for the other board members and if they don’t want to do it, you may have to accept that it won’t get done. When people ask why it’s not being done, say you don’t have enough volunteers and the board is only X number of people and can’t do it alone.

Thanks that's good advice. and pretty much what is happening, violations are not getting done because people are not volunteering to do the work to find someone to do it for the HOA. Oh well. Governing docs and NC law says it's optional for board to enforce so not a big deal.

vis ta vie

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 07/30/2024 9:33 AM
Terri,
I served on a Ca. board for 8 years and the last 4 as president. This was during the time the new meeting changes were made. I am not familiar with the term Serial meeting I must admit. Having a conversation with a board member is not illegal. We are also owners and being on our board does not stop our rights as humans.

The way I understood the law was communicating as a group outside of the meetings was no longer allowed and decisions could not be made before a open meeting. I am obviously paraphrasing the language.

From DS site:
Nor can Boards conduct "Serial meetings" which seek to evade the Open Meeting Act. Serial meetings come in two forms:

Chain Meetings (or daisy chain meetings) occur where director"A" talks to director "B" who talks to "C" who, in turn, talks to "D" in an effort to get a decision on a piece of business. A variation is where A and B talk, then A talks to C and B talks to D, etc.. No more than two are ever in the conversation so a quorum is never involved but decisions are being made on and action taken on business outside of an open meeting and without minutes
Hub-Spoke Meetings (also called wheel-hub meetings) occur when directors are spokes with one person at the center (the hub). Directors never talk to each other; they each separately to a director (or manager) who coordinates and relays the messages to make a decision and take action outside of a meeting and without minutes.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Yes, in fact, members’ rights are curtailed when they become directors because they now have a fiduciary duty to the association.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 07/30/2024 7:56 PM

Posted By MarkM19 on 07/30/2024 9:33 AM
Terri,
I served on a Ca. board for 8 years and the last 4 as president. This was during the time the new meeting changes were made. I am not familiar with the term Serial meeting I must admit. Having a conversation with a board member is not illegal. We are also owners and being on our board does not stop our rights as humans.

The way I understood the law was communicating as a group outside of the meetings was no longer allowed and decisions could not be made before a open meeting. I am obviously paraphrasing the language.

From DS site:
Nor can Boards conduct "Serial meetings" which seek to evade the Open Meeting Act. Serial meetings come in two forms:

Chain Meetings (or daisy chain meetings) occur where director"A" talks to director "B" who talks to "C" who, in turn, talks to "D" in an effort to get a decision on a piece of business. A variation is where A and B talk, then A talks to C and B talks to D, etc.. No more than two are ever in the conversation so a quorum is never involved but decisions are being made on and action taken on business outside of an open meeting and without minutes
Hub-Spoke Meetings (also called wheel-hub meetings) occur when directors are spokes with one person at the center (the hub). Directors never talk to each other; they each separately to a director (or manager) who coordinates and relays the messages to make a decision and take action outside of a meeting and without minutes.

Ok, so discuss the topics and don’t make a decision.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

No, a quorum of board members whether serially or simultaneously can only discuss items of business that are on a noticed agenda - California.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/30/2024 10:35 AM
So far as I know, MarkM, there still is no "serial meeting" verbiage in CA Civil Code about HOAs. (The Open Meeting Act or the "Act."). Perhaps Terri can cite it for us.

If NC is an open meeting state, Wendy, I'd say that a quorum of the board meeting to discuss the content & opinions re: agenda items prior to the open meeting isn't legal and must be avoided. Years ago, we had a Board like that here in our open meeting state, that'd "decide" before the open meeting. The open meeting became a farce of motions & votes-- a rubber stamping facade of an open meeting. No discussion, debate, deliberation. It was one reason why they were voted out at the next annual meeting.

Do directors get a board packet or directors report with all of the back sound materials in it and, say, estimates of costs to fix something or purchase something 3 or so days before the board meeting, Wendy?

Here you go: CIVIL CODE SECTION 4910. NO BOARD ACTION OUTSIDE OF MEETING.
(a) The board shall not take action on any item of business outside of a board meeting.

(b)

(1) Notwithstanding Section 7211 of the Corporations Code, the board shall not conduct a meeting via a series of electronic transmissions, including, but not limited to, electronic mail, except as specified in paragraph (2).

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Terri and Dean,
This is another law that is impossible to prove or enforce. Should board members give up their phones to stop phone calls? Should they not go outside for fear of running into one of the other board members? As president I get calls from other board members often when they have questions regarding things that come up and helps them learn processes.

Your Fiduciary Duty in my opinion is to always do what is best for the association. In most cases the term is used regarding financials meaning to act in the best interest of the HOA over yourself.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

So, there is no verbiage in CA codes that use the phase "serial meetings." Imo, we should stick to NC & Wendy's situation here.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/31/2024 9:50 AM
So, there is no verbiage in CA codes that use the phase "serial meetings." Imo, we should stick to NC & Wendy's situation here.

Kerry, I think you know what "serial" means. It means "taking place in a series." My original post did not use quotation marks; it was describing the kinds of meetings that are prohibited...in California....serial meetings.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I refuse to argue w/you Terri, re: Calif. on this NC thread.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/31/2024 1:35 PM
I refuse to argue w/you Terri, re: Calif. on this NC thread.

Then don't ask me California questions.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/31/2024 1:35 PM
I refuse to argue w/you Terri, re: Calif. on this NC thread.

You specifically asked me to cite California serial meetings and when I did, you don't want to hear it. While the poster is not in CA, I think it helps understand a topic when various practices are offered from different states.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 07/30/2024 8:39 AM
Shelia wrote “it may be time for an executive session to discuss what the current board can and can't do, along with expectations (theirs may be different from yours, so be prepared to listen.) If there are some tasks no one has time for, ask for community volunteers.”

Discussing those subjects in executive session would also be illegal in California.

This would be called an orientation meeting and it is NOT illegal in California.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Why must I repeat this? There is NO statute in CA re: HOAs or non-profits that uses the phrase "Serial Meetings," which you, Terri, stated first. You failed to cite any such stature. If you want to debate this topic re: CA, start a new post.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/01/2024 7:01 PM
Why must I repeat this? There is NO statute in CA re: HOAs or non-profits that uses the phrase "Serial Meetings," which you, Terri, stated first. You failed to cite any such stature. If you want to debate this topic re: CA, start a new post.

The problem here is that you are stating something I never said. I said serial meetings were not allowed. I never said a statute used the word “serial.” The statute does use the word “series” which means the same thing. Good grief. Again you asked for a citation and it is Civil Code Sec 4910.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 08/01/2024 4:16 PM

Posted By TerriS6 on 07/30/2024 8:39 AM
Shelia wrote “it may be time for an executive session to discuss what the current board can and can't do, along with expectations (theirs may be different from yours, so be prepared to listen.) If there are some tasks no one has time for, ask for community volunteers.”

Discussing those subjects in executive session would also be illegal in California.

This would be called an orientation meeting and it is NOT illegal in California.

Show us in the code where it’s an allowed topic in executive session. You can’t.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

maybe I will just have a quick survey at the very beginning to see where people are at.

vis ta vie

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 08/02/2024 5:28 AM
maybe I will just have a quick survey at the very beginning to see where people are at.

As long as you do it in an open meeting. If they can't or don't want to do the work, everyone should hear that - along with their explanation.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

It looks like California statutes does not explicitly state it but the interpretation from Legal firms websites discuss it. This is for California and not NC. However it is important to know the more developed states like California show how important to keep the discussion in the meeting and not outside of the meetings.

Davis Stirling Website.

"Disallowed Meetings. Boards cannot take action on any item of business outside of a board meeting. (Civ. Code § 4910(a).) "Item of business" means any action within the authority of the board, except those actions the board has validly delegated to any other person or persons, managing agent, officer of the association, or committee of the board comprising less than a majority of the directors. (Civ. Code § 4155.) Except for emergencies, boards cannot conduct business by email (see Uaninous Written Consent below). Nor can Boards conduct "Serial meetings" which seek to evade the Open Meeting Act. Serial meetings come in two forms:

Chain Meetings (or daisy chain meetings) occur where director"A" talks to director "B" who talks to "C" who, in turn, talks to "D" in an effort to get a decision on a piece of business. A variation is where A and B talk, then A talks to C and B talks to D, etc.. No more than two are ever in the conversation so a quorum is never involved but decisions are being made on and action taken on business outside of an open meeting and without minutes
Hub-Spoke Meetings (also called wheel-hub meetings) occur when directors are spokes with one person at the center (the hub). Directors never talk to each other; they each separately to a director (or manager) who coordinates and relays the messages to make a decision and take action outside of a meeting and without minutes.
These kinds of meetings are not addressed by the Davis-Stirling Act. Whenever in doubt about open meeting compliance, the Brown Act and the Bagley-Keene Act can provide guidance. The Brown Act prohibits such communications, whether direct, by intermediaries or electronically. (Gov. Code § 54952.2; 63 Opps.Atty.Gen. 820 (1980); Stockton Newspapers v. Redevelopment Agency (1985) 171 Cal.App.3d 95.)"

Overall it is helpful to know this since too often we fall in the trap and discuss things outside the correct forum in the condo assn.

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

Buried in the response is Dean's comments. Use the open meeting to discuss the topic and do not make a decision. I think Dean's idea is fine. I find on important topics is to bring it up months in advance, prepare information so it could lead to an informed discussion and or informed vote. The survey is forcing them to make a quasi decision outside of the meeting. Anyone else have ideas to help the OP and keep the open meeting idea in place.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Again, in CA No, a quorum of board members whether serially or simultaneously can only discuss items of business that are on a noticed agenda. Can't even discuss if no noticed meeting agenda.
Again the statute forbidding serial meetings by email Civil Code section 4910.b1. Sheesh.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

BUT, Terri & Gregory, Wendy told us that NC is NOT an “open meeting state.” So—- board members can talk about whatEVER the hell they want outside of noticed Board meetings via any method they want.

How does yammering about CA with loonngg quotes from a CA HOA attorney* help Wendy AT ALL??

They certainly can use Dean’s method, which is common. I believe Dean is in Ohio, which also is a “closed meeting state.” I don’t know about NJ.

Shelia’s idea about Wendy assigning certain topics to certain board members makes sense too.

A ‘Board packet with supporting materials in it given to directors 4-5 days before a board meeting has been more than sufficient for my Board of 7 for the 14 years I served. Did every director review every item in It?? NO. We’ve had our share of “do nothing” directors.

In Wendy’s case, with few common area components, It’d seem that agendas would not be very long or complicated. It looks like Wendy wants to amend their Bylaws to require open board meetings, and that’s good to see! IMO, open board meetings attended by owners are one source of of future board members.

* Again ‘serial meeting” is NOT HOA or corp. non-profit code lingo in CA. IMO, it’s always best to use the actual language from an HOA’s governing docs or state codes, NOT someone’s interpretation. In her first usage, Terri did not state the wording was from an HOA attorney and NOT state statutes.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 08/01/2024 8:03 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 08/01/2024 4:16 PM

Posted By TerriS6 on 07/30/2024 8:39 AM
Shelia wrote “it may be time for an executive session to discuss what the current board can and can't do, along with expectations (theirs may be different from yours, so be prepared to listen.) If there are some tasks no one has time for, ask for community volunteers.”

Discussing those subjects in executive session would also be illegal in California.

This would be called an orientation meeting and it is NOT illegal in California.

Show us in the code where it’s an allowed topic in executive session. You can’t.

Board Orientation/Training. A board orientation or training session is an informational meeting for new boards where directors meet with the association's management and/or legal counsel to (i) learn about the board's duties, (ii) receive an update on legal issues, and (iii) receive historical background information. As such, a board orientation does not require notice to the membership and may be closed. If, however, there is an expectation that pending legal matters will also be discussed with the association's attorney, a two-day notice of an executive session meeting needs to be posted.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Kerry and Aidyl...ignore the statutes at your peril.

GregoryT1
Posts: 315

Posted:

Kerry,

I agree with you. The legal website has taken a lot of "license" to what actually the California statute was stating. I did not correctly write there is a disconnect between the legal website and the law. The websites can be helpful but in this case I think it is not.

In any case to the problem at hand there are some solutions stated by prior postings.

Question to the OP what are the rules in the condo docs that allow you to make changes to the bylaws to make it an open meeting setup? Then wouldn't your survey then go against that? Are you really trying to solve a board who is not taking their duty responsibly and that is what our thread should be concentrating on.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 08/02/2024 12:59 PM
Kerry and Aidyl...ignore the statutes at your peril.

I do