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BernieJ (Virginia)
Posts: 31
Posted:
I am the President of a small HOA comprised of 154 townhouse units, single family. We have had the same management firm for the past 25 years. I have been an owner in the community for 32 years. Over the past 25 years, I was not heavily involved in oversite of the Board or the effectiveness of the Community Manager until a homeowner approached me to run for a Board seat. Two years ago I was elected, and served as Vice President during my first term, and currently President.
I am disappointed with the way management is responding to overseeing contracts, residents concerns, and above all my own, along with fellow Board members who submit requests for action to be taken by the community manager and find little or no follow up.
After struggling with acclimating our current manager last year, she is no better than the one who resigned.
At the end of the day, I want to interview other companies to either validate that the current management company is acting below standard, or above. The contract is up for renewal at the end of this year, and I think it would be in the best interest of the Association to just see what else is out there and if we should consider putting the contract out for bid.
When we arrange interviews with prospective management firms, are we obligated to notify the membership and current management of the interviews?
My guess is, we would have to announce the meeting to the membership as a special meeting, with no business to be conducted, as the Board will convene to executive session to disuss the management contract. We probably should allow the current management firm to present their new contract for us to consider, right?? While we allow two or three other management companies to make their presentation to us???

Is this how it's done or is there a better way to obtain proposals and politely put the current manager on notice that we are shopping their services?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
You absolutely should be looking for a new manager if the current one (and the company?) are not satisfactory. I think it's smart to keep an eye out even if you are satisfied - it can keep your current vendors from getting complacent.

No, you're not obligated to inform homeowners that you're looking. It's the board's job to vet and hire service providers, and owners aren't even entitled to see proposals or contracts that are under negotiation. They are entitled to see signed contracts. It's a good idea to be aware of complaints from owners. But keep in mind that this feedback is going to be heavily skewed toward the complaints. Owners rarely call up to praise someone, although we've had owners tell us that the snow removal crew was great.

We found our best management company from word of mouth. Another way to find a good manager is to look around your area for communities that look like they're being well cared for, and see if the community has a website - sometimes you can find out from there who is managing them. Social media can be full of stories, but take then with a huge grain of salt.

All that said, boards and managers should periodically sit down and discuss expectations and procedures. I recommend doing it at the beginning of the year or at least when a new manager comes on board. I think boards (and homeowners) can have unreasonable expectations of what it means to hire a manager who may be managing a dozen communities or more. That person is going to have conflicting priorities that they have to juggle, so they won't be at the beck and call of the boards in those communities. Having all of the manager's attention only happens if an association actually employs that manager - and then the board will have all of the obligations and expenses that go along with it.

(We're going to have to have a sit down in my community since our board is getting irked - unfairly I think - with a manager who's only been on the job a few months. But in our case I think it's a combination of a probably overworked manager plus an inexperienced board whose expectations were shaped by the previous, not-great management company plus a dictatorial ex-board president who didn't know as much as he thought he did.)
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I should add... if a manager thinks you're looking around, it can go both ways. Either they may up their game (assuming you've been clear with them what that involves), or they may write you off as a bad bet (if you've been a difficult client).

In my experience, really good management companies are few and far between, they can command top dollar, and there may be a waiting list of communities that want to hire them.

I think it's best to salvage a current relationship unless it's been bad from the get-go, even after the board has had the expectation-setting meeting.

I also think it's unfair to criticize someone for failing to do something when you haven't told them that you want them to do it. Different communities will have different needs. Boards will have varying levels of knowledge and skill, as will managers. None of us are mind readers, and many difficulties can be avoided through clear communication.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
We had frustration with our management company and after trying to receive better service from the property managers, I and another board member went to meet with the management company the Property Management President and the Operations manager. We explained in detail what our frustrations were and that we were frustrated with having to manage the management company. We explained our next step if we did not receive better service and better financial services. The President asked a number of questions and within a week we began to receive improved services and a new veteran property manager. It makes a big difference when you receive the services at a professional level.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I agree with Cathy and Michael - normally, I'd say start with Michael's approach by bringing in the manager's supervisor and develop a performance improvement plan. If there wasn't improvement in 3-6 months (depending on the severity of the problems), start your search while reviewing the current contract with the association attorney to see how you should submit a formal notice that you won't be renewing the contract.

Since it appears to be too late for a PIP, review the contract and send in that notice. For now you don't need to notify the homeowners, but it would be a good time for a poll on association operations in general, asking how they feel about the board, property manager, rule enforcement, etc.

Pay close attention to the comments on the property manager, as this will you some ideas on how you'd like the manager to respond to them. There are sample polls around the internet you can adapt to your community.

As you narrow down possible choices after doing your due diligence, have each one make a presentation before the homeowners (separate meetings) and homeowners can ask questions.

Meanwhile, develop your transition plan with the current manager do everything will be done properly by the time the contract ends. Your attorney can help with that and there are resources around the internet on developing transaction plans. There are also old conversations on this website you can review - bring questions to this conversation so you'll get updated suggestions.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Bernie,
Cathy and Micheal give you some great advice above. It is important to set expectations properly though.

With a small community your size you are what they call a Portfolio account. This means you only get a small slice of a PMs time and talent. I would guess in your case less than 10 hours a month, but it could be more. My community has 1450 SFHs and we get 20 hours per week as an example. If you talk to the CEO of the current PMC and ask for a seasoned PM it may help. If they give you a new hire you will be setup to fail again and again. Many managers with portfolio accounts manage by Fire Alarms. They work with the squeakiest wheels in their total portfolio.

I think you should interview new PMCs but setting expectations is very important. Whenever a new manager takes over an account it is up to a board member to get them up to speed. This can be time consuming but must be done to get them on the right track. Without guidance they will take 6 months to figure everything out and that will make you feel like they have failed again.

If you do decide to change, I would say that you would like to talk to other portfolio accounts that the potential manager is currently managing. You must call all references and ask good questions this is very important for your success.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Bernie,
I would also like to add that time is of the essence. Typically, you have to give 60 days' notice in writing if you decide to cancel the existing contract. You also need to schedule executive session meetings to bring in potential vendors. The board should make themselves available for these meetings but that can be difficult with short notice. I would hold these meetings with a board majority if all cannot be present.

I disagree with Sheila on getting feedback from owners. This will just become a grip session for everyone who has ever got a violation notice or a late notice. The board works with the PMC and the PM and that is who should make this call.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
most of them suck and their contracts suck even more.
look for these bad contract terms and demand they are not acceptable.

cancelation terms greater then 30 days.
cancellation/termination/whatever fee of any kind.
any kind of fee that lets them profit off of late fees or violation fees.
out of state arbitration
they control your savings accounts or bank accounts. Dealing with getting $$$$$ in CD;s for 3 months now being reimbursed to us, so bad personal experience.
etc.

if you dont' have any common areas I'd seriously look into financial management only. typically $300 to $400/month.

vis ta vie
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
What good responses you'e getting, Bernie, from seasoned HOA leaders. I see Shelia & Mark wrote at the same time

A sentence jumps out at me that needs clarification: you're disappointed with resets from you & and individual directors?? "...above all my own, along with fellow Board members who submit requests for action to be taken by the community manager and find little or no follow up."

Does you contract with the MC say that any Board member can make requests of the PM at any time???? Is the the president supposed to receive special service for their request?
A correctly-run HOA sees that the Board only, acting at a meeting, votes to make decisions about what it wants management to do.

(My HOA is a Board of 7, it would be. chaos if every director could make "requests" of our PM and our contract with our current and past MC do not permit it.)

How many hours DOES t your PM work for your HOA? Ido they hav an office on your premises?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Oh, I missed this: does your contract with the MC provide for the PM to "oversee" contracts? If so, what does that entail?
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
You aren't obliged to inform owners that you are looking for a new management company, but I believe they do have the right to see the bids if a member asks.

If you are ready to be done with the management company, then it would be nice to give them a heads up that you are seeking service from other companies. However, if you think it is worth salvaging the relationship, you could try to work on an "improvement plan" together.

Good luck!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Owners don't have the right to see bids in CA HOAs. Maybe they do in Marshall's NY? But, what about the OP's Virginia?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 07/25/2024 5:23 AM
We had frustration with our management company and after trying to receive better service from the property managers, I and another board member went to meet with the management company the Property Management President and the Operations manager. We explained in detail what our frustrations were and that we were frustrated with having to manage the management company. We explained our next step if we did not receive better service and better financial services. The President asked a number of questions and within a week we began to receive improved services and a new veteran property manager. It makes a big difference when you receive the services at a professional level.

Sound advice. Do this before changing companies.
BernieJ (Virginia)
Posts: 31
Posted:
Wendy,
Go Home.
I don't like the word suck, and I am seeking positive solutions to my post.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
What about the other thoughtful responses, Bernie?
BernieJ (Virginia)
Posts: 31
Posted:
WOW! What a great community of HOA experts who have offered invaluable insight on how I should approach this.
To answer some of the comments that came up, relevent to whether or not I should call a special meeting, this actually came from the Association Attorney during Board training. She told us in the state of Virginia, when the Board meets for any reason, the membership must be notified. The attorney has been the Association attorney by choice of the management company. Most of the time she does provide good advice. However, that changed when we had a ton of questions about a $200,000 contract we signed with a contractor that turned into $325,000. She gave bland advice on how to handle it, then closed with, you really need a contract attorney???

I love the recommendation to put a survey of sorts out the membership asking them what they expect from their management company and the Board. Michael557 suggestion to request a meeting with the management team and define our expectations and build a better relationship is definitly in order. I also took heart MarkM19 to the comment on management companies categorizing ours as a portfolio account. You nailed it! When I recommended a change in management 25 years ago, it was for this reason. The management company was using our neighborhood as a "training" commuity to acclimate new recruits to community management. We were assigigned a a new manager every year. This was problematic, and became rather expensive to the owners. That is when I (seasoned real estate professional at the time) recommended we change companies. We ended up with the one we are with which I and my community contributed to their growth as as a trusted management company.
Trying to fast forward, over 25 years, the residents just accept what they get and don't want to rock the boat. I get it, I am also 25 years older and I have to let my wild fire attitude succomb to reason and good business principals relevant to GEN Z principals.

Having said that, business principals must protect the interest of the investor, the owners. PLEASE HELP me protect my investment and the other 153 owners! I love you all, and I appreciate all comments positive and negative!
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BernieJ on 07/26/2024 9:40 PM
WOW! What a great community of HOA experts who have offered invaluable insight on how I should approach this.
To answer some of the comments that came up, relevent to whether or not I should call a special meeting, this actually came from the Association Attorney during Board training. She told us in the state of Virginia, when the Board meets for any reason, the membership must be notified. The attorney has been the Association attorney by choice of the management company. Most of the time she does provide good advice. However, that changed when we had a ton of questions about a $200,000 contract we signed with a contractor that turned into $325,000. She gave bland advice on how to handle it, then closed with, you really need a contract attorney???

... snip ...

Lawyers specialize, and often they're surprisingly uninformed about areas outside of their specialties. Contract law is one of those areas, although I would expect an HOA lawyer to be somewhat knowledgeable about the kinds of contracts an HOA routinely is involved with. Condos in particular regularly hire vendors who provide services like lawn care, roofing repairs, concrete or road maintenance, and plumbing repairs - and boards are used to dealing with such contacts.

Contract attorneys are often employed by for profit corporations since those contracts can be much convoluted that the routine stuff we see in the community associations and can involve intellectual property, among other things.

That said, I was in a meeting where our current attorney was talking about challenges in the insurance market and mentioned that some of her condo communities were talking about switching from all-included to bare wall insurance to reduce premiums. I pointed out that this is often determined by the CC&Rs (as in my community's case) and is not something the board can change without an amendment. I was sitting there thinking "how can she not know this?" I think it's because she's employed by a generalist law firm, even though she handles the HOA clients. This is different from being employed by a specialist law firm that only handles community association law - lawyers benefit from being around others who deal with the same areas of law and who talk about it all the time.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Cathy. wrote: "This is different from being employed by a specialist law firm that only handles community association law - lawyers benefit from being around others who deal with the same areas of law and who talk about it all the time." This is so important. Bernie hasn't said what kind of attorney they have, but imo, a firm that specializes in HOAs is best. An attorney who specializes in contract law or, say, real estate, may know very little about HOA law and go governing documents.

Say, Bernie, what does your contract with your management company says about its duties--are they supposed to "oversee" contract work? In what ways? How many hours does your MC give your HOA a week? May any director make requests of the PM? Put another way, is it possible that you/the board is complaining about tasks you all somehow expect, but that are not in the contract?? I think it's crucial that the Board have a thorough understanding of the existing contract.* Then, you're in a position to better negotiate or adhere to the contract you do have OR decide what your Board wants changed wit your current or future MC.

Once you're able to answer those questions, I'm with those who advise that your Board meet with your PM and her/his supervisor(s) in executive session and discuss how to meet the terms of the contract OR, perhaps, amend it. Notice to Owners that there is an exec.session may be required in VA, and if so, the purpose could be "Personnel Matter" as would be OK in Calif. Ditto, if/when you interview other MCs.

It's also really import to remember that the job of directors of HOAs, overall, is to protect, maintain and enhance the common areas. Boards that are successful at that basic task will be providing the best service to owners in HOAs.

* * I too, was a full-time active realtor for five years many years ago. I found that careful reading of contracts was my top skill from that field that helped our HOA over my 14 years of service as a board member. The 2nd useful realtor skill had to do with things like "curb appeal," i.e, the overall attractiveness of or HOA.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BernieJ on 07/24/2024 8:26 PM
I am the President of a small HOA comprised of 154 townhouse units, single family. We have had the same management firm for the past 25 years. I have been an owner in the community for 32 years. Over the past 25 years, I was not heavily involved in oversite of the Board or the effectiveness of the Community Manager until a homeowner approached me to run for a Board seat. Two years ago I was elected, and served as Vice President during my first term, and currently President.
I am disappointed with the way management is responding to overseeing contracts, residents concerns, and above all my own, along with fellow Board members who submit requests for action to be taken by the community manager and find little or no follow up.
After struggling with acclimating our current manager last year, she is no better than the one who resigned.
At the end of the day, I want to interview other companies to either validate that the current management company is acting below standard, or above. The contract is up for renewal at the end of this year, and I think it would be in the best interest of the Association to just see what else is out there and if we should consider putting the contract out for bid.
When we arrange interviews with prospective management firms, are we obligated to notify the membership and current management of the interviews?
My guess is, we would have to announce the meeting to the membership as a special meeting, with no business to be conducted, as the Board will convene to executive session to disuss the management contract. We probably should allow the current management firm to present their new contract for us to consider, right?? While we allow two or three other management companies to make their presentation to us???

Is this how it's done or is there a better way to obtain proposals and politely put the current manager on notice that we are shopping their services?

I've been in this situation.

1. You do not need a special meeting to discuss whether to solicit new management bids. Your contract is ending at year's end
2. Don't break the contract that's in place.
3. Check the current contract to see if there's 30, 60 or 90 day window to give notice of non-renewal
4. The only contract proposal that's relevant to the current management company is their proposal.
5. You do not have to accept a bid from your current manager if you're displeased. This isn't federal government contracting.
6. You do not have a requirement to tell the entire community that you're simply soliciting bids (someone will run to your existing manager IMMEDIATELY!)
7. With bids in place - all them with identical start dates and terms of services - you can hold an executive meeting to discuss the bids.
8. Don't be so quick to fire your long-time property manager.
9. Also, with all bidders who aren't your existing manager....make sure they're willing to take on your account immediately should the current property manager, somehow, walk away.

Remember, you're not firing your manager. You're soliciting bids for management services upon the full completion of a good contract (don't be bullied on that). You want your bid review and acceptance to coincide very closely with the date you must notify your existing management company that you're not auto-renewing the contract.
TamaraG7 (Florida)
Posts: 35
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BernieJ on 07/24/2024 8:26 PM
I am the President of a small HOA comprised of 154 townhouse units, single family. We have had the same management firm for the past 25 years. I have been an owner in the community for 32 years. Over the past 25 years, I was not heavily involved in oversite of the Board or the effectiveness of the Community Manager until a homeowner approached me to run for a Board seat. Two years ago I was elected, and served as Vice President during my first term, and currently President.
I am disappointed with the way management is responding to overseeing contracts, residents concerns, and above all my own, along with fellow Board members who submit requests for action to be taken by the community manager and find little or no follow up.
After struggling with acclimating our current manager last year, she is no better than the one who resigned.
At the end of the day, I want to interview other companies to either validate that the current management company is acting below standard, or above. The contract is up for renewal at the end of this year, and I think it would be in the best interest of the Association to just see what else is out there and if we should consider putting the contract out for bid.
When we arrange interviews with prospective management firms, are we obligated to notify the membership and current management of the interviews?
My guess is, we would have to announce the meeting to the membership as a special meeting, with no business to be conducted, as the Board will convene to executive session to disuss the management contract. We probably should allow the current management firm to present their new contract for us to consider, right?? While we allow two or three other management companies to make their presentation to us???

Is this how it's done or is there a better way to obtain proposals and politely put the current manager on notice that we are shopping their services?

With 154 homes, like someone else mentioned, you're a portfolio property and the manager's time is based on the number of doors in a HOA. As a portfolio manager, I managed 10-12 properties of varying sizes up to 1,950 doors with 10-12 BOD meetings a month, 12 budget meetings during budget season on top of regular board meetings & 12 annual meetings between December and May along with regular board meetings. You get what you pay for in portfolio management & only the cream of the crop of managers can juggle 12 properties at a time and pay attention to needs & wants. Your managers are overworked & probably underpaid working between 40-60 hours per week at least. An on-site experienced manager with over five years would cost you in the ballpark of $65K to $90K a year; how much are you paying your management company for a portfolio manager?

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