Condo Reserve Studies and Unexpected Issues

Here's a weird one for everyone's enjoyment.

We're busy getting bids for a new reserve study, and we're hitting an unexpected snag: roofs.

Fact one: our community manager said that these studies don't include roofs. (Say what?! Since when? Roofs are major components in condo communities and were indeed included in our last study.)

Fact two: one company that she solicited bids from actually doesn't include roofs.

Fact three: another company does do them but expects us to provide the ladders. (I objected for liability reasons. Also, we don't own ladders. We don't have any place to store them, and we don't want volunteers climbing up onto the roofs of two-story buildings.)

Fact four: our regular roofing company inspected our roofs recently and provided us with a pretty thorough report. Of course, the report did not contain estimates of remaining useful life or projections of when they'd need to be replaced, which is a major piece of a reserve study. Either we didn't ask for it, or that's beyond the scope of what roofing companies do. I suspect both of these are true.

What the heck is going on here? I feel like we've fallen into The Great Reserve Study Black Hole, and at a time when states all over are tightening up reserve requirements.

This was my laugh for the day. A condo reserve study that doesn't include roofs? The most expensive item on any reserve study?

I guess you could have an engineering consultant do the actual inspection and have the reserve company rely on that report. But I would expect a discount on the cost of the reserve study if they aren't looking at it themselves. Are they going to bother to even look at the parking lot for the life of the pavement?

Anytime you get up on a roof, there is a risk.

I suspect that the company simply doesn't want to insure for that risk.

Call your roofing company back. Reference the report and ask if they can ball park how long before replacement and what that cost might be.
Give that to your reserve specialists and have them include it their numbers.

Personally, unless it's an engineer, I would prefer a roofing specialist check the roof vs. a reserve specialist (who may or may not have specific construction training).

Thanks, Tim - that's a good suggestion, and we may be at that point.

I think we could actually do the updated study ourselves if we get revised estimates of useful life. We have the results of the last study in a spreadsheet, and I know overall how they projected future costs (ie. they used current inflation rates at the time, assumed they'd be similar for a few years, and then assumed they'd revert to the long-term average). The inflation rate is the big thing that has changed since the last study when rates were super low. Fortunately we haven't had an extreme weather events here, knock on wood, that would have accelerated aging to an alarming extent.

I'm thankful every day that our current board members are capable and want to do a good job. Some previous ones would be in over their pointy heads. (Actually, they wouldn't be doing a new reserve study at all.)

That IS odd, but I think they're also concerned about liability. Maybe they didn't do a good job assessing the roofs for their last few studies (whatever "good job" means), something happened and they got sued. Or the community didn't accept those recommendations, stuff happened and they were sued. Or an employee got up on the roof and fell off for whatever reason, and then sued. Or all of the above.

I don't know if our reserve specialist took a look at the roofs for the last study (now two years old), but we had it done the last year I was on the board and the specialist had a lot of background information from contractors who did some recent repairs, plus information we received from the insurance company the last time they were replaced several years earlier (due to a hailstorm). I don't think he went on the roof, but could see a good portion of it from the street. (the latest study is two years old), but when we had it done the last year I was on the board, he didn't go on the roof, but we'd had some work done on a few buildings plus lots of information from the insurance company the last time they were replaced, so there was a lot of information he could use without going on the roof himself.

These days there are drones everywhere and some contractors use them to help with repair estimates - don't know why these folks didn't ask around and see if that was a possibility for your community. The cost could have been added to the study or you could pay it separately. I recently had the roof replaced on my mother's home - the contractor didn't walk on the actual roof, but he went up and down around it and took lots of pictures, which he sent to me. Whenever he'd climb down, he'd point out to me what he saw. Maybe the property management company could do the same - zoom lenses can capture the more worrisome stuff.

Even odder - your property manager saying reserve studies don't include roofs. Wonder how many she's read in her time - our previous property manager always pushed for us to get them done every five years. Maybe she should do more research on what they are - better yet, tag along with a company that prepares them (preferably one that will take a look at the roof as well as recent repairs and replacement history.

hey LetA posted a big funny. Thanks I needed that. Cathy I am in disbelief. I am getting three outfits lined up for reserve studies and they are following the condo docs for common and limited common area on what the condo is responsible for. I am thinking the roof of course is in the condo docs. Are you on the board because the only thing I can think of is if you are not on the board potentially someone on the board is playing games and asking for the roofs to be removed on the reserves to keep dues low. Something is not adding up. I am flabbergasted.

ahhhhhhh got it. Yes I have seen home inspectors who refuse to get on roofs these days and eyeball it from the ground. I guess reserves specialists are going down the same path. I am surprised they don't use drones. I am assuming these are shingle roofs on multiple structures. Thanks for the explanation.

Why are people entrusted to perform critical duties all the sudden afraid of roofs?

Associations are required to repair & replace the common area components of an HOA. No doubt that also included in the contract Cathy's HOA has with their reserve study provider. THE manager has no authority to exclude roofs UNLESS they aren't in the CC&Rs as the HOA's obligation, and even then the Board would vote on the matter,

RS are highly certified and are they are NOT home inspectors.

There are many many, reserves components that reserves specialists do NOT "inspect " up close & perrsoal in detail. My two 25 story towers, for instance, have thousands of lineal feet of exterior building caulking. It was replaced in 2013 or $325000. and give an est.life of 25 years by our very experienced RS. "Scott" compares the age & physical location tion of the caulkinsunny? slat air? much dampness? with other similar buldings. He reviews the manf., manual AND the HOA's manual on care , etc.

Nieither he nor other RS's typically climb ladders and and inspect every roof! The HOA did not hire a drone. The RS' knowledge base tells him how long to expect that roof to last given its materials amount of sun, rain or slat air on the roof, ect., and the maintenance a manual. *

I've thoroughly read the the update CAI advice in 2023, Reserves Guidelines done by professionals in that fiield.. I see nothing the sugggest Elle's speculating about whatever she's trying to say. .I guess a citation of a good source would be really helpful. The Reserve providers' Insurance re: a study of an HOA???

* detailed inspection and even possibly "destructive testing" is done of construction defect cases by the defect attorneys' experts, not a reserves specialist.

We have no idea about what the manager knows, although I don't think she's deliberately lying.

If this is a trend, it's one that (apparently) none of us has heard of. Others have pointed out that the association is obligated to maintain the common elements. And I know my state's condo laws require an association to set aside enough money to repair/replace the reserve components without resorting to a special assessment.

I can see why an individual company may want to ignore roofs (liability, etc.). But I expect that the market place will show it the error of its ways in the form of lost customers.

We're having a board meeting later this morning, and "full and frank" discussions about this topic are on the agenda. :-)

Cathy, why does your board not get in writing from the one reserve provider a statement that they don't do roofs. what about the other two form which you're getting bids (one hopes. Your PM should make clear to those form whom your Board sees proposals are of your more recent complete full study.

With Tim, make sure any reserve study provider knows you have recently roof report.

Awwwwww,c'mon, Elle, WHY do you disagree with my above??? To make a blanket statement without logic, reason etc. is sloppy and cowardly.

For cris'sake will someone actually read the CAI' update Reserve Stud yGuidelines??? See "RECOMMENDATION: For a full description of the updated guidelines, see "2023 Reserve Study Standards" at Davis-stiirling.com, thier Aug get 23, 2023 newsletter.

You're funny Cathy about your "mission in life." Sorry the roofs are "failing prematurely"--this can, indeed, put whole indoor reserves and had happened to my HOA oo.

But, again, why doesn't the Board get confirmation in writing that the reserve provider will not include roofs in the reserve study??

SCAM ALERT

We had to scare our homeowners with the receivership thing when our hoard numbers got dangerously low and I fear we may have to do it again sooner rather than later because we currently have four board members and I know at least two probably want to step down since they've been serving since I stepped down 10 years ago.

As for Surfside, too many people think it can't happen to them because they don't live in Florida, forgetting about all the extreme weather happening all over the planet or they think they'll be taking a dirt nap by the time hellfire starts raining down. You'd think they'd take a look at what's happening with their own insurance and get a clue, but....

That's a very good idea! With all the talk about AI on this website, this may be a great example of how it could be used to analyze information. You could even use the data to track which building seems to have more repair issues than the others and take a deeper dive to find out why. Maybe there are construction issues and if you're lucky, there may still be time to duke it out with the developer to get them addressed.

Better yet, preparing a list with all this stuff should be part of a new community's punch list as the developer prepares to get the hell out of Dodge. Maybe even add surveyor information, so you'll have a starting point in case there are clashes concerning where an individual homeowner's property lines start and the association's common area begins.