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Do HUD racial harrassment liability against an HOA - apply to single family homes on lots or only condo/shared property associations?

Started by RogerJ1 • 17 replies • 290 views

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RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:

There is a libel lawsuit around the N-word that is semi-related to an association, and based on the defendant's attorney at a recent hearing, I think the defendant which is the minority party might be trying to take the case down the HUD ruling on HOA responsibility in the area of racial harassments. For reference, here is article explaining the HUD policy and the liability it imposes on HOAs on this subject: https://hoalaw.tinnellylaw.com/hud-establishes-rules-regarding-discriminatory-activity-liability-fair-housing-act-will-directly-impact-homeowners-associations/

II searched and found some actual cases citing this HUD policy, but all of those cases were related to condo associations and that makes sense since the alleged victims and alleged harassers might share property together, but would this HUD requirement on HOAs apply to single family/separate home on separate lot type HOAs?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 07/16/2024 10:31 AM

but would this HUD requirement on HOAs [pertaining to hostile environment discrimination] apply to single family/separate home on separate lot type HOAs?
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: The FHA prohibition on hostile environment discrimination on the basis of race (and several other protected classes) applies to any "housing provider." I believe it is the CFRs, and not the statute, that uses the latter term. For the purposes of the Fair Housing Act, a single family home subdivision is just one type of "housing provider."

The exact circumstances may or may not translate to the HOA being liable for an environment qualifying as unlawfully hostile under the FHA (and CFRs).

If you elaborate, I could offer an opinion on the risks here.

Granted elaboration runs the risk of identifying who you are. Some doxers, determined to keep people from getting good help, participate on this forum. I will continue to caution these doxers that they are helping hurt people. They are increasing the chances that, for one, unlawful discrimination will continue. I am sure they do not give a fig. Just saying.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You’ve posted on this website long enough to know that the majority of us aren’t attorneys and since you’re asking about libel, HUD and HOAs (which have a patchwork quilt of laws related to various issues, depending on where you are), your question is best addressed by an attorney – and you’d probably need to talk to more than one because one may be an expert on libel, another on racial discrimination and a third on HOA law in your state. You didn’t even provide even basic information on this lawsuit, so how would we know? Stop being cheap and take these questions to a real attorney for a change.

Then again, ElleN is more patient about wading through this stuff, so if you’re reading this, have at it….

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
-- I continue to feel that discussions here can help the person asking questions prepare for a meeting with an attorney.

-- Unless SheliaH is fine posting under her real name (or having identifying information about her "accidentally" posted here), then I caution SheliaH about further doxing attempts. Your attempted doxing hurts people trying to help with fair housing situations.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 10:55 AM
You’ve posted on this website long enough to know that the majority of us aren’t attorneys and since you’re asking about libel, HUD and HOAs (which have a patchwork quilt of laws related to various issues, depending on where you are), your question is best addressed by an attorney – and you’d probably need to talk to more than one because one may be an expert on libel, another on racial discrimination and a third on HOA law in your state. You didn’t even provide even basic information on this lawsuit, so how would we know? Stop being cheap and take these questions to a real attorney for a change.

Then again, ElleN is more patient about wading through this stuff, so if you’re reading this, have at it….
I am not patient these days. But when an answer is found in HOA Board Training 101, then there is no excuse for not simply providing it.

That you could not answer this simple question disappoints. Serious question: Did you let your ego get the best of you?

Asked another way, I am pretty sure SheliaH knows the answer. If a poster had queried: "Our single family home subdivision, non-condo covenants require that only White people occupy and own homes. Is this enforceable? Why or why not?"

Of course the Fair Housing Act applies to both condo associations and single family home, non-condo homeowners' associations.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
No one is suggesting a discussion wouldn’t help the person prepare for a chat with an attorney, but it helps to get a little more information on what happened so you can come up with a suggestion that makes sense. Maybe the coffee’s worn off, but I don’t know what to make of a question that asks about “a libel lawsuit around the N word that’s semi-related to an association….I think the defendant which is the minority party might be trying to take the case down the HUD ruling on HOA responsibility in the area of racial harassment” ….. Maybe you’re more patient than I am and I know you like legal research, but if memory serves, Texas law has one set for HOAs (the single-family edition)

Searching for anything can be a challenge and I find most of the time the more specific you are, you have a better chance of getting closer to what you want. Perhaps I could have said it differently but even you asked about elaboration and that “the exact circumstances may or may not translate to the HOA being liable.”

For starters - are we talking about libel (publication of false statements in physical form, such as writing) or slander (defamation that’s in oral form) You know some people use those terms interchangeably. Was this something that someone said on a social media page sponsored by the HOA? Did someone let loose during an association meeting or the neighborhood BBQ (either way, I suspect a lot more came out than the N word if that’s what happened).

Personally, I'm a little curious as to what’s behind Roger’s question – is he on the board, is he the one being sued, or is the rumor mill around the lawsuit going into overdrive and it’s occurred to him that this may not be an association issue at all. Of course, he doesn’t have to explain that either, but you’ve seen numerous conversations where people provide more information that turns the question on its head. I would think it’s easier to provide a little detail at the start to save everyone time.

Finally, As I’ve said before and will say again – people can take, some, none or all or what anyone has to say here – don’t like a comment, just ignore it and move on to the next (it's faster and doesn't raise one's blood pressure). In this case, the only person who seems insulted about what I said is you. I'm not stopping Roger from asking questions or whoever answers them - in fact I hope he finds what he's looking for. Have a nice day.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 07/16/2024 10:31 AM
I searched and found some actual cases citing this HUD policy,
And it's not a "policy." The case law making entities (like HOAs and employers, under certain circumstances for both) liable for a housing (or workplace) environment that is hostile on the basis of race (or membership in several other specific, protected class) dates back to at least 1987.

The Department of HUD just chose to make it crystal clear and raise awareness that it is not messing around. The Department chose to use the CFRs to formally pronounce that, doh, HUD has applied, and will continue to apply, all that case law pertaining to hostile environment discrimination to fair housing cases.

If you do not know what a CFR is, then we are well beyond HOA Board Training 101. It's a subject for another time.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 11:46 AM
I don’t know what to make of a question that asks about “a libel lawsuit around the N word that’s semi-related to an association…
He asked one question. You want to go off in the weeds. That's ego, amiga.
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 11:46 AM
if memory serves, Texas law has one set for HOAs (the single-family edition)
What are you talking about? He asked about Fair Housing law's applicability to non-condo HOAs. You seriously cannot answer his one question?

Do you seriously think the Fair Housing Act does not apply to non-condo HOAs?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
As ElleN stated, it does indeed apply to HOAs, apartment complexes, mobile home parks, co-ops, etc. The residents do not have to jointly own property or own any property at all.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Bless you, CA3.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 11:46 AM
No one is suggesting a discussion wouldn’t help the person prepare for a chat with an attorney, but it helps to get a little more information on what happened so you can come up with a suggestion that makes sense. Maybe the coffee’s worn off, but I don’t know what to make of a question that asks about “a libel lawsuit around the N word that’s semi-related to an association….I think the defendant which is the minority party might be trying to take the case down the HUD ruling on HOA responsibility in the area of racial harassment” ….. Maybe you’re more patient than I am and I know you like legal research, but if memory serves, Texas law has one set for HOAs (the single-family edition)

Searching for anything can be a challenge and I find most of the time the more specific you are, you have a better chance of getting closer to what you want. Perhaps I could have said it differently but even you asked about elaboration and that “the exact circumstances may or may not translate to the HOA being liable.”

For starters - are we talking about libel (publication of false statements in physical form, such as writing) or slander (defamation that’s in oral form) You know some people use those terms interchangeably. Was this something that someone said on a social media page sponsored by the HOA? Did someone let loose during an association meeting or the neighborhood BBQ (either way, I suspect a lot more came out than the N word if that’s what happened).

Personally, I'm a little curious as to what’s behind Roger’s question – is he on the board, is he the one being sued, or is the rumor mill around the lawsuit going into overdrive and it’s occurred to him that this may not be an association issue at all. Of course, he doesn’t have to explain that either, but you’ve seen numerous conversations where people provide more information that turns the question on its head. I would think it’s easier to provide a little detail at the start to save everyone time.

Finally, As I’ve said before and will say again – people can take, some, none or all or what anyone has to say here – don’t like a comment, just ignore it and move on to the next (it's faster and doesn't raise one's blood pressure). In this case, the only person who seems insulted about what I said is you. I'm not stopping Roger from asking questions or whoever answers them - in fact I hope he finds what he's looking for. Have a nice day.

A long series of board members leaving, a legal challenge to ballots, and other stuff for years. An African American lady, who has lived in the community for 30 years, tried to get on the board in an election and then formally challenging the results in early 2022. Two board members quit a few months later, and she was appointed. The next AGM, in early 2023, was canceled an hour before it started because the Board claimed something was wrong with the absentee ballot. The make-up AGM was held in a room with fire capacity of ~40 people and the association normally has ~60 people attend recent AGMs. So people were packed shoulder to shoulder in a already tense scenario - librarian in charge shrugged her shoulder while counting people. About 30 minutes into the meeting, an argument broke out, and the spouse of the African American lady became very aggressive. Several non-HOA people in the library called 911, 6 constables came to investigate the board spouse as the only suspect. Later that night, that spouse sent a subdivision-wide email claiming the other party called him the N-word (as far I as understand no one but that spouse and wife-board-member claim it was said.) In the email, he also called into question the business of the person in regards to using such language, escalating the libel. That lawsuit is over a year old, with a countersuit too and 50+ filings.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In most of his queries, as I recall, it's not clear :

1. Is Roger is talking about his HOA? He often has written about his "friend's" HOA.

2. Is he on the Board if his own HOA?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 07/16/2024 1:00 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 11:46 AM
No one is suggesting a discussion wouldn’t help the person prepare for a chat with an attorney, but it helps to get a little more information on what happened so you can come up with a suggestion that makes sense. Maybe the coffee’s worn off, but I don’t know what to make of a question that asks about “a libel lawsuit around the N word that’s semi-related to an association….I think the defendant which is the minority party might be trying to take the case down the HUD ruling on HOA responsibility in the area of racial harassment” ….. Maybe you’re more patient than I am and I know you like legal research, but if memory serves, Texas law has one set for HOAs (the single-family edition)

Searching for anything can be a challenge and I find most of the time the more specific you are, you have a better chance of getting closer to what you want. Perhaps I could have said it differently but even you asked about elaboration and that “the exact circumstances may or may not translate to the HOA being liable.”

For starters - are we talking about libel (publication of false statements in physical form, such as writing) or slander (defamation that’s in oral form) You know some people use those terms interchangeably. Was this something that someone said on a social media page sponsored by the HOA? Did someone let loose during an association meeting or the neighborhood BBQ (either way, I suspect a lot more came out than the N word if that’s what happened).

Personally, I'm a little curious as to what’s behind Roger’s question – is he on the board, is he the one being sued, or is the rumor mill around the lawsuit going into overdrive and it’s occurred to him that this may not be an association issue at all. Of course, he doesn’t have to explain that either, but you’ve seen numerous conversations where people provide more information that turns the question on its head. I would think it’s easier to provide a little detail at the start to save everyone time.

Finally, As I’ve said before and will say again – people can take, some, none or all or what anyone has to say here – don’t like a comment, just ignore it and move on to the next (it's faster and doesn't raise one's blood pressure). In this case, the only person who seems insulted about what I said is you. I'm not stopping Roger from asking questions or whoever answers them - in fact I hope he finds what he's looking for. Have a nice day.


A long series of board members leaving, a legal challenge to ballots, and other stuff for years. An African American lady, who has lived in the community for 30 years, tried to get on the board in an election and then formally challenging the results in early 2022. Two board members quit a few months later, and she was appointed. The next AGM, in early 2023, was canceled an hour before it started because the Board claimed something was wrong with the absentee ballot. The make-up AGM was held in a room with fire capacity of ~40 people and the association normally has ~60 people attend recent AGMs. So people were packed shoulder to shoulder in a already tense scenario - librarian in charge shrugged her shoulder while counting people. About 30 minutes into the meeting, an argument broke out, and the spouse of the African American lady became very aggressive. Several non-HOA people in the library called 911, 6 constables came to investigate the board spouse as the only suspect. Later that night, that spouse sent a subdivision-wide email claiming the other party called him the N-word (as far I as understand no one but that spouse and wife-board-member claim it was said.) In the email, he also called into question the business of the person in regards to using such language, escalating the libel. That lawsuit is over a year old, with a countersuit too and 50+ filings.

First, thanks for the info and responding in a civil manner. I apologize if I was overly catty - unlike ElleN you took the high road. Don't know what set her off, but I'm going to focus on the question from here on out.

I do remember some of this from earlier conversations you've posted - when the lady was running for a spot wasn't there a Zoom board or association meeting where someone interrupted by blaring a clip from the Dave Chappelle show, complete with the N word, H-word (for white poeople) and so on? Then there was tge library meeting where you wondered if it was selected even though it wasn't nearly as large as it shoukd have been, considering the number of people who typically show up?

You didn't bring up race at that time, but mentioned someone's spouse was a former basketball player, he got into an argument with someone else, chaos ensued, the cops showed up and you wondered if votes taken before all the hoohah should stand because the meeting was was adjourned.

I thought all that was bad behavior and still think so, and now you have this lawsuit. You wonder if HUD regulations might play into this. You probably know refusing to sell or rent housing based on race, nationality, religion, gender, disability, color and/or family status is a HUD violation, but treating someone differently or harassing them, or making a discriminatory statement about them can also be an issue with HUD.

If this lawsuit has gone on and on with counterclaims, it could be some time before your question is answered.
I also wonder if there is a HUD element, but it gets shot down as fallout from the Chevron decision (thank $upreme court!)

Like Kerry, I still wonder what you will do with this information. As far as I can tell, you're not on the board or part of a group that's trying to make change in your community because the current crew doesn't have its act together. Various suggestions have been given to you, but youve never reported back on whether you tried anything and what happened next. Are you worried the association will be on the hook for an expensive settlement if the couple wins? Are you involved in this lawsuit - if so, I would think you'd be discussing this with your attorney. So what's your end game?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 4:29 PM

First, thanks for the info and responding in a civil manner. I apologize if I was overly catty - unlike ElleN you took the high road. Don't know what set her off,
That's just too bad you have a problem with being called out, completely civilly, for not answering the question and insisting the OP should see an attorney. Then you try that armchair psychobabble.

Take a taste of your own medicine: Drop the ego you just have to insert again and again into your posts.

Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 4:29 PM
...I'm going to focus on the question from here on out.
Progress. Contrary to your first posts, some HOA directors and owners know something about fair housing law.

Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/16/2024 4:29 PM
I also wonder if there is a HUD element, but it gets shot down as fallout from the Chevron decision (thank $upreme court!)
Nope.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 07/16/2024 1:00 PM

A long series of board members leaving, a legal challenge to ballots, and other stuff for years. An African American lady, who has lived in the community for 30 years, tried to get on the board in an election and then formally challenging the results in early 2022. Two board members quit a few months later, and she was appointed. The next AGM, in early 2023, was canceled an hour before it started because the Board claimed something was wrong with the absentee ballot. The make-up AGM was held in a room with fire capacity of ~40 people and the association normally has ~60 people attend recent AGMs. So people were packed shoulder to shoulder in a already tense scenario - librarian in charge shrugged her shoulder while counting people. About 30 minutes into the meeting, an argument broke out, and the spouse of the African American lady became very aggressive. Several non-HOA people in the library called 911, 6 constables came to investigate the board spouse as the only suspect. Later that night, that spouse sent a subdivision-wide email claiming the other party called him the N-word (as far I as understand no one but that spouse and wife-board-member claim it was said.) In the email, he also called into question the business of the person in regards to using such language, escalating the libel. That lawsuit is over a year old, with a countersuit too and 50+ filings.
The defendant is fighting back. It's the way lawsuits go.
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 07/16/2024
There is a libel lawsuit around the N-word that is semi-related to an association, and based on the defendant's attorney at a recent hearing, I think the defendant which is the minority party might be trying to take the case down the HUD ruling on HOA responsibility in the area of racial harassments.
First, by statute HUD will not get involved if a lawsuit between say private citizen Jones and private citizen Smith already exists and one of the parties raises a claim of unlawful FHA discrimination. Private citizens are certainly allowed to forego using HUD to enforce their fair housing rights. Instead the private citizen can go straight to court with his/her own attoney. Second, Defendant Smith can certainly try to claim unlawful FHA discrimination in his/her countersuit. This does not mean the judge will agree. Third inter alia Defendant Smith can use the alleged use of a racist slur to argue Smith's response, supposedly defaming Jones, was clearly hyperbole that no one could take seriously. Smith's attorney could argue that any reasonable person in Smith's shoes would be obviously upset about the racist slur and maybe say things that he should not say.

In short, don't watch lawsuits too closely.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:

elle wrote: "That's just too bad you have a problem with being called out, completely civilly, for not answering the question and insisting the OP should see an attorney. Then you try that armchair psychobabble... Take a taste of your own medicine: Drop the ego you just have to insert again and again into your posts."

I do not see Shelia's posts as "ego"-driven OR "psychobabble." But neither elle nor I are psychologists. elle has "called me out" as a "narcissist" in more than one of her many rants against me. Apparently "expert" scientiifc definition is someone who writes a lot. Do note elle often writes long posts.

Most recently, elle wrote on different thread to me: "...you should stay alert to loss of cognitive skills (assuming you had them at some point)." I can't imagine what her parents socialized her to be such an angry, bitter, unhappy woman.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
< next (it's faster and doesn't raise one's blood pressure). In this case, the only person who seems insulted about what I said is you. I'm not stopping Roger from asking questions or whoever answers them - in fact I hope he finds what he's looking for. Have a nice day.


A long series of board members leaving, a legal challenge to ballots, and other stuff for years. An African American lady, who has lived in the community for 30 years, tried to get on the board in an election and then formally challenging the results in early 2022. Two board members quit a few months later, and she was appointed. The next AGM, in early 2023, was canceled an hour before it started because the Board claimed something was wrong with the absentee ballot. The make-up AGM was held in a room with fire capacity of ~40 people and the association normally has ~60 people attend recent AGMs. So people were packed shoulder to shoulder in a already tense scenario - librarian in charge shrugged her shoulder while counting people. About 30 minutes into the meeting, an argument broke out, and the spouse of the African American lady became very aggressive. Several non-HOA people in the library called 911, 6 constables came to investigate the board spouse as the only suspect. Later that night, that spouse sent a subdivision-wide email claiming the other party called him the N-word (as far I as understand no one but that spouse and wife-board-member claim it was said.) In the email, he also called into question the business of the person in regards to using such language, escalating the libel. That lawsuit is over a year old, with a countersuit too and 50+ filings.

Simply saying the N-word isn't enough. What was the context? I have experienced men calling each other the N-word as if it were a term of endearment.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Above paragraph is copied from RogerJ1's post. Apologies for the sloppy copy.

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