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KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We have a gated public street entry to our urban center high rise at a 24/7 staffed kiosk. Then, there's a fairly steep 30-foot long concrete narrow 2-way drive ramp to/from the underground garage. At the bottom of this ramp, to the right, there are 15 Visitor Parking spaces. At the far end from the ramp—past these 15 spaces—is an elevator that takes visitors up to the street level near the kiosk.

Although there’s a sign that says to not walk on this ramp, we have no rule against it. Most visitors don't want to go to the elevator, which is out of their way if they’ve going in a certain direction. So they walk up the ramp.

At last night’s open board meeting, a long-time owner once again complained about the foot traffic he sees on this ramp from his unit and says it’s a lawsuit waiting to happen. Someone is bound to fall or get hit by a car. He urged the Board, as he does every year, to make rule against walking on it.

There are several reasons why a rule is impractical, e.g., virtually all of the violators are visitors. Residents are not allowed to park in VP. So absentee Owners would have to be called to a hearing even if it’s their tenants who’ve invited the visitors. In addition, to try to enforce, our kiosk staffer would have to leave the kiosk unstaffed to chase down those they can see on the ramp. Then, those entering by car from the street would not be able to conveniently enter since that staffer controls the drive entry gate.

In addition, one of these VP spaces is enclosed for another several months as in it are materials needed for some balcony repair work. Those workers go in and out and also walk up & down this ramp.

I guess this is a legal question, but maybe someone can tell me or speculate: Would an official rule against walking on this ramp protect the HOA from a lawsuit if someone walking on it is somehow injured???
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Anyone can be sued for just about anything. It comes down to the bean counters at the insurance company on
whether or not they want to spend money litigating a tort claim or rolling over and cutting a check without batting an
eyelash.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
As LetA said, anyone can sue for anything, but that doesn't mean he or she would win. It's best to put a reminder in your newsletter and your website asking residents to remind their visitors where to walk - and that the HOA will not be responsible for injury or damages that occur if they do otherwise. Perhaps you could also put up a sign in the area reminding people of the same.

You should also tell the owner why a rule is impractical for the reasons you mentioned, and how are you going to run down these people (not literally!) to get their information so you can fine them, sue them, etc? Tell this owner if he has suggestions as to how a rule could work or some other idea, let the board know so it can be considered.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/26/2024 2:12 PM

I guess this is a legal question, but maybe someone can tell me or speculate: Would an official rule against walking on this ramp protect the HOA from a lawsuit if someone walking on it is somehow injured???
-- If the rule is enforced every time a violation of the rule occurs, then this will either help protect the HOA from being found liable in a lawsuit, or help when a litigant seeks a settlement.

-- If the Board or manager knows people are violating the rule and does not enforce the rule, this increases the chances the HOA would be held liable. The legal term of art here is "foreseeability."

-- If a rule is never created for this situation, then since an owner warned the HOA about this, this increases the chances of liability down the road, should someone get hurt. Attorneys will seize on anything that might suggest the HOA 'knew or should have known' of the risk to pedestrians on the ramp.

-- People are more likely to sue when there is an insurer. Ambulance chaser mentality and all.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
No, there is nothing that can completely protect you from a lawsuit. What something like a rule (or signage or even a law) can do is lessen your chances of being sued and increase your chances of prevailing if you do get sued.

If you want to rely on something written to protect you from liability, it should be drafted by a lawyer to make sure that the wording is as airtight as possible and that it complies with relevant legal documents. There be dragons in legalese....
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Sure, signs prevent lawsuits and judgements. Just put up “Hazardous Conditions Exist - Enter At Your Own Risk” signs at the entrances and you are covered. LOL.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If the Board does decide to propose a rule against residents or their guests walking on this ramp, advice from our HOA attorney would be sought, for sure.

Our HOA is 23 years old and so far as I know there has never been a person injured on this ramp. I was on the Board for 14 years, so know for certain about that period. Even off the Board, word gets around when there are incidents of various kinds. So I don't see any possible accident as "foreseeable."

I also don't think that just because an owner--with no "safety" expertise--expressed fear that an accident might occur means the Board must act on that owner's opinion. It, indeed, must act on obvious or reported hazards like uneven pavers that could be "trip hazards" or loose hanging tree limbs that could fall on someone's head, etc.

That a rule might help protect the association from a lawsuit IF it's always enforced is interesting & kinda makes sense. Because of the kiosk officer's varied duties, letting drivers in & out of the gates, giving out/retrieving visitors' parking passes, accepting/signing parcel deliveries, dealing with realtors, their backs are almost always to the ramp so wouldn't see "violators" until too late. An even if they did, they usually wouldn't stop their other task, jump up and run to the ramp to chase the violators back into the garage.

So my thinking is to carry on as we have with perhaps a more strongly- worded sign and reminders to residents in our monthly News to direct this guests to use the VP parking area elevator.

Our residents do see staff and the contract-balcony workers on the ramp--our engineers have a workshop also at the bottom of the ramp, so walk on as do or custodians, but residents don't know these have workers comp.

This for your help & advice!

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/29/2024 9:41 AM

I also don't think that just because an owner--with no "safety" expertise--
His/her expertise in "safety" is not relevant.
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/29/2024 9:41 AM
expressed fear that an accident might occur means the Board must act on that owner's opinion.
No one said "must."

The point is if someone expressed concern about an issue involving safety, and then subsequently someone got hurt in a way that more or less matches the aforementioned expressed concern, then this could increases the chances of liability in a lawsuit. Why? Because the plaintiff's attorney would argue the board "should have" foreseen an accident. How much would this possibly increase the chances of liability? It depends on the details.

Posting a sign is an admission that an accident was at least somewhat foreseeable. Otherwise, why post a sign?

In summary: This is about odds, probabilities, et cetera.

Mostly I think you are overthinking this.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
A rule would probably help because someone could claim they didn't see the sign but members have the rules personally delivered to them so they should know it's off limits. Just another layer of defense if a member sues. Sounds like a poor design that your stuck with.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
You're stuck with
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I agree with Elle, Terri, that to protect my HOA a rule would need to be constantly enforced, which is impossible here. And visitors don't read our Community Rules booklet. Ah, Terri, the design: In my urban area ALL high rise residential & commercial buildings have some sort of a ramp to underground parking. Lotsa different designs. Some have an actual sidewalk next to the ramp, but it's still steep. Ours was, of course approved by the City when we were under construction.

I don't agree that just because an HOA owner expresses fear about safety -- when no potential fixable peril is visible-- like inadequate lightIng (as in a famous case), or broken gym equipment, it would affect a lawsuit.

But, I think you're tight, Elle; I'm overthinking this.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Sorry, you're "right," Elle.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Sorry, you're "right," Elle.

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