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Zoom Meetings

Started by LmT • 19 replies • 485 views

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LmT (California)
Posts: 237
Posted:
A while ago I saw something in a D-S newsletter that indicated zoom meetings were still allowed in California but that HOA's must provide a physical location for meetings. I'm not sure if this decision held or if it was subsequently revised.

I have searched the D-S website but can't find anything.

Does anyone have the answer?

Thanks,
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'll take look. I do think that now no one must physically in a physical "meeting room."
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
yes, here it is: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/V/Virtual-Zoom-Meetings#axzz1SwSqE3XH

"Member Attendance. Beginning January 1, 2024, board and membership meetings can be held virtually without designating a physical location for members to attend. To hold virtual meetings where members are allowed to attend, the following conditions must be satisfied (Civ. Code § 4926(a)):"

Do visit the Davis-stirling.com site above site above to get the details.

This is such a winner for HOAs in Calif. that do not have meeting rooms on their premises!
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
AB 648. Virtual Meetings. This bill would authorize board and member meetings, except for meetings at which ballots are counted and tabulated, to be conducted entirely virtually without needing to designate a physical location. [Chaptered]
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Welcome back, Aidyl. Hope you're doing well.

Yours & mine crossed and we can see that AB 648 is now in effect..
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I wish my state would get with the program.

There are so many owners out there who have issues with attending in-person meetings (eg. physical disabilities, absentee owner). If one of these owners requests a reasonable accommodation, that's not the time for the board to start scrambling for a solution. Much better to prepare ahead of time and have the necessary software/hardware in place.

You'd think that a pandemic would have alerted everyone to how unprepared they are, but nope...
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LmT on 06/04/2024 6:04 PM
A while ago I saw something in a D-S newsletter that indicated zoom meetings were still allowed in California but that HOA's must provide a physical location for meetings. I'm not sure if this decision held or if it was subsequently revised.

I have searched the D-S website but can't find anything.

Does anyone have the answer?

Thanks,

A physical location is not required except for counting ballots in an election.
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/V/Virtual-Zoom-Meetings
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarshallT on 06/11/2024 7:36 AM
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/V/Virtual-Zoom-Meetings

Here is just one of many examples of how the DS website bends the law for boards. The ballots are required to be opened and counted AT the meeting in plain view of the membership - not virtually.
Civil Code § 5120. Counting Ballots; Irrevocable.

(a) All votes shall be counted and tabulated by the inspector or inspectors of elections, or the designee of the inspector of elections, in public at a properly noticed open meeting of the board or members. Any candidate or other member of the association may witness the counting and tabulation of the votes. No person, including a member of the association or an employee of the management company, shall open or otherwise review any ballot prior to the time and place at which the ballots are counted and tabulated. The inspector of elections, or the designee of the inspector of elections, may verify the member’s information and signature on the outer envelope prior to the meeting at which ballots are tabulated. Once a secret ballot is received by the inspector of elections, it shall be irrevocable.

(b) The tabulated results of the election shall be promptly reported to the board and shall be recorded in the minutes of the next meeting of the board and shall be available for review by members of the association. Within 15 days of the election, the board shall give general notice pursuant to Section 4045 of the tabulated results of the election.

(Added by Stats. 2012, Ch. 180, Sec. 2. Effective January 1, 2013. Operative January 1, 2014, by Sec. 3 of Ch. 180.)
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LmT on 06/04/2024 6:04 PM
A while ago I saw something in a D-S newsletter that indicated zoom meetings were still allowed in California but that HOA's must provide a physical location for meetings. I'm not sure if this decision held or if it was subsequently revised.

I have searched the D-S website but can't find anything.

Does anyone have the answer?

Thanks,

Kerry and Terri found the answer for you, but you may want to refine your searches a bit to get what you need, especially since the Davis-Sterling website has A LOT of information on it. Here are some suggestions (may also help find information on this website)

* use specific words. All sorts of stuff might come up if you write Zoom meeting, but "are Zoom meetings legal" might yield better results. I tried that in a Google search and came up with at least four responses listing the answer

* Simplify search terms. If you use prepositions (in, of, on), conjunctions (and, but) and articles (a, the), you may get a ton of pages you don’t need. Also use the simplest form of the keywords – skip plurals and suffixes like “ing” “-s” or “ed”. For example “service” instead of services may be more effective

(I KNOW some of you started hearing “Conjunction Junction, what’s your function” from Schoolhouse Rock!)

* Use quotation marks – write your search term within quotation marks will prompt a search for that specific word or phrase

Hope this helps!
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So long as CA HOA owners (members) can WITNESS the tabulation of every ballot via tech means (as can be done in my HOA), a virtual meeting is legal for conducting the annual meeting and election or other membership meetings when owners vote.

If an HOA doesn't have the tech. remote means to show the votes being tabulated by the inspectors of election, that HOA has to provide a physical location where ownrs can witness the tabulations.

I do not see that D-S.com is trying to trick anyone on this point.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Davis-Stirling Act specifically requires ballot opening and counting in person physically at a member meeting.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
“Assuming this was cited correctly: "Civil Code § 5120. Counting Ballots;.... (a) All votes shall be counted and tabulated by the inspector or inspectors of elections.... in public at a properly noticed open meeting of the board or members. Any candidate or other member of the association may witness the counting and tabulation of the votes.”

Nothing above states the open meeting must be held in a brick & mortar physical room. Zoom meetings now ARE “public” for HOA members.

For many HOAs in Cali, the Zoom meeting permits some to “attend” who otherwise cannot— we all can think of examples. One camera is showing the inspectors tabulating the ballots, the other is showing the physical meeting room IF there is one.*

Many Cali HOAs have no meeting room. So the Assoc. must often pay rent for a room off the premises, which is costly & prohibits some members from attending. There would be an additional cost by the firm that provides the inspectors of election to come to that physical site.

So long as all owners--no matter HOW they atten--can witness the tabulations, how are any owners harmed, Terri?

* Our HOA's Board uses inspectors of election who are owners who are unrelated to candidates or current directors. A camera is on the inspectors when they tabulate the ballots for owners to witness who attend virtually. Those who attend physically in person may wander to that table--not in the same room as the meeting-- and observe. They may not speak to the inspectors and must stay a minimum of 5 feet away form the table. A second camera is on the meeting itself.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Shall be counted AT the meeting. That is why the law states that the meeting to open and count the ballots is the only exception to holding virtual meetings.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/04/2024 6:31 PM
yes, here it is: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/V/Virtual-Zoom-Meetings#axzz1SwSqE3XH

"Member Attendance. Beginning January 1, 2024, board and membership meetings can be held virtually without designating a physical location for members to attend. To hold virtual meetings where members are allowed to attend, the following conditions must be satisfied (Civ. Code § 4926(a)):"

Do visit the Davis-stirling.com site above site above to get the details.

This is such a winner for HOAs in Calif. that do not have meeting rooms on their premises!

Yes I totally agree, There virtually is no place left for us to meet at. We used to meet at the community room of a car dealership.
I looked at Denny's and they will no longer let the party room out for just the cost of beverage service, and the few people that do show
up would not make that cost effective. The library can't guarantee space for such a low turnout either.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I can agree with Terri that there are those in the Calif. legal fields who support her wish to limit how many owners may attend Assoc. (Membership) Meetings. This is odd tome s Teri has seemed to be a genuine advocate for HOA owners.

The CA HOA attorneys at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/V/Virtual-Zoom-Meetings#axzz1SwSqE3XH offer the competing interpretations.

My own stance is: the greater owner participation is in elections and membership meetings, the better it is for all Owners. In addition, the more owners who become educated in the ways by which HOAs are governed, the better it is for the entire HOA. One benefit alone is that more owners might be attracted to help govern the HOA on committees or on the Board if attendance to members AND board meetings is easy.

My interpretation of the new statute is the 2nd below from the above website.

"Exception to Virtual Meetings. A meeting at which ballots are counted and tabulated pursuant to Section 5120 cannot be entirely virtual. It must conducted (i) entirely at a physical location or (ii) a hybrid meeting with virtual elements plus a physical location. (Civ. Code § 4926(b).) What remains unclear is the location of the ballot tabulation. There is a split of opinion in the legal community. Following are the two interpretations:"

"Onsite Tabulation. Those who argue for the Inspector of Elections to physically attend the meeting and count ballots cite Civil Code 5120(a), which states: 'All votes shall be counted and tabulated by the inspector or inspectors of elections, or the designee of the inspector of elections, in public at a properly noticed open meeting of the board or members. Any candidate or other member of the association may witness the counting and tabulation of the votes . . .'" As is obvious, those unable to attend, including, absentee owners, are preventing from witnessing the tabulation.

"Offsite Tabulation. Because of the high cost to associations of an Inspector appearing in person, others favor an interpretation that allows the Inspector to appear virtually as long as the camera clearly shows the inspector counting and tabulating votes. They point out that 'in public' means able to be viewed or witnessed, i.e., not hidden, which is satisfied with a wide-angle camera showing the counting."

The rest of the discussion at the above site may be interesting to readers for a few different reasons!
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
The physical meeting should be on Zoom so everyone can see. But the opening and counting needs to be done at physical location.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Kerry I have never advocated for limiting member attendance at meetings. How on earth did you contrive that?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I “contrived” nothing, Terri. There are 2 ways owners can view the Annual Meeting & Election & ballot tabulations in CA HOAs.

The LEAST accessible to ALL owners is the mtg. in a physical room at the HOA. For tabulation, all owners leave the room, the inspectors come in, sit at a table and begin opening dual envelopes containing the secret ballots (in CA) Owners may come in to observe the counting. Depending on the # of ballots, this can easily take an hour. The inspectors finish and someone announces to the owners cooling their heels somewhere that the meeting is recovening so the lead inspector can announce the number of votes for each candidate. Everyone troops back into the meeting room.

The ONLY owners who may see the meeting and/or witness the tabulating are those physically present. Anyone who’s ill, absentee owners (25% in my HOA), immuno-comped, on vacay, etc., etc., are excluded.

Terri claims the annual meeting “should” be on Zoom, but here is no requirement in CA HOAs and, even if on Zoom, the ballot tabulation table might not be on Zoom.* Remote owners are unable to witness the tallying.

A friendlier way, that invites ALL owners in, is the hired inspectors, at their own workplace, where the tabulating task is clearly on camera for owners who physically OR remotely attend the meeting to view. A camera also is on the annual members meeting itself.

This way also is cheaper for all owners because there’s no cost to bring the inspectors onto the premises. There also is no need for two areas — one in which to hold the meeting, and one where the inspectors do their task. In many CA HOAs, there IS no meeting room so a room rental cost to owners. If ONE room on the premises is used, it’s inconvenient for all and slows everything considerably.

At my (high rise) HOA, the in-house Owner/inspectors are able to sit in a lobby corner so that the comings & goings and talk IN the meeting room doesn’t disturb them. Our Board and members meetings are hybrid.

How is the annual meeting done at your HOA, Terri. You've written that your HOA has no amenities except roads.

*. If the tabulation table is ON the HOA's premiss, Terri, why is viewing tabulations by Zoom in an annual meeting room BETTER for owners than viewing the tabulations at the inspectors’ workplace on Zoom??
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 06/12/2024 7:37 PM
The physical meeting should be on Zoom so everyone can see. But the opening and counting needs to be done at physical location.

How do you count in a virtual location? Ballots are counted at a physical location using virtual technology.

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