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GregoryT1
Posts: 315
Posted:
Hi, I reviewed past postings on work permits in a condo. From what I reviewed the condo assn cannot overstep its bounds in fining etc for work that was done without permits.

However, a neighbor in the building can report a permit violation if necessary to the local municipality.

Also, NJ Condo law is silent on permits unless it has to do with the developer's transition of the condo to the new owners.

I saw this in the condo docs.

VII OWNERSHIP OF CONDOMINIUM UNITS, MAINTENANCE AND ALTERATIONS

H. ALTERATION AND IMPROVEMENT
No unit owner shall make any alterations in the portions of the unit and building which are to be maintained by the Association, or remove any portion thereof, or make and additions thereto, or do any work which would jeopardize the safety or soundness of the building or impair any easement, without first obtaining unanimous approval of all owners of the other units in the building, and the approval of the Board of Directors of the Association.

We had work in units with natural gas boilers, furnaces and water heaters, HVAC all without permits. Also we had one water issue from a water heater unpermitted and most likely unlicensed.

The problem is the work is generally replacement of existing items and not alterations but since we are dealing with natural gas does that need to be discussed and approved? This is due to the safety and soundness of the building.

Are folks going to ask where to draw the line on any approvals?

It does not look like the Condo can enforce permitted work. Also, I don't think the condo as an entity can even call the municipality and report a violation.

Thanks for the help
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
That seems odd that a condo can’t fine for work that wasn’t done without the proper permit. There may have been previous conversations about this, but you know all of us are from different states, so what may be true in your state may not be the case in mine, and vice versa. Read your OWN community documents and see what they say. The CCRs may have a list of areas that are the association’s responsibility vs. the homeowner’s, so that’s what you need to go on.

Next, call your local building department or whoever enforces the building code for your city or county, or check the website (it’s faster). Usually there’s a list of work that requires a permit, penalties for not having the right permit or doing the work without one, and where complaints can be filed. If the work required a permit and was done without it, that shouldn’t preclude the association from filing a complaint with the city or county, especially if the common area was affected by the work.

If that’s the case, the association should be consulting its attorney to see what its legal options are, and then pursue whatever’s appropriate. You could establish some sort of fining policy, but you should know from reading other conversations you’ll need to check the documents to see if it allows fines and maybe state law. Then you’ll need to notify homeowners of the fining schedule, how it will be enforced and appeal rights.

Contractors should already know what work requires a permit, so it’s a matter of determining who’s responsible for getting it. In my area, if the homeowner does the work, he or she must purchase the permit, but if it’s a contractor, he or she should be the one to purchase the permit. In fact, it’s better for the contractor to do it because that can give the homeowner added protections if something goes sideways. The cost is added to the project fee.

You don’t say what sort of work was done in your building (or how you found out about this – are you on the board? Did you talk to the homeowner(s)?) I would think there’s a difference between having one of those seasonal checks (e.g. a HVAC technician checks the air conditioner before summer kicks in) vs. repairing a furnace that doesn’t require the entire unit be replaced, vs. a water heater that does need to be replaced.

Your building department might be able to help in that regard, or you can contact the gas/water/electric company because some work may require their participation (e.g. upgrading an electric circuit panel may require a meter box be replaced, and you’d have to contact the electric company to do that because it usually owns the meter. You’d also have to pay for that, too.)

Getting all of this information may warrant a board policy that requires it be contacted before certain work is done in case there has to be some sort of coordination between the contractor, homeowner and the association in case the work requires access to the common area. You may also want to consult the association’s master insurance policy and attorney to ensure the association’s risk is reduced and building safety is maintained.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
This is from your CC&Rs, right? It's always good to name the actual "condo doc" you're referring to.

"H. ALTERATION AND IMPROVEMENT
No unit owner shall make any alterations in the portions of the unit and building which are to be maintained by the Association, or remove any portion thereof, or make and [sic?] additions thereto, or do any work which would jeopardize the safety or soundness of the building or impair any easement, without first obtaining unanimous approval of all owners of the other units in the building, and the approval of the Board of Directors of the Association."

First the above, at least in part seem to refer to areas that "are to be maintained by the association." And I don't see "replacement," but as Shelia notes, you need to check with your municipality about what work in units requires a building permit," and what does not.

Our CC&Rs leave it up to unit owners/their contractions to learn if building permits are required. And as Shelia nite, contractors do know these things. IF an owners does work w/o a required bldg .permit, they can b called to a hearing an ordered to arrange for an pay for th City to inspect th work an give a written approval--or write what is needed to comply with local requirement.

Do your CC&rR have an article or section on Architectural Review or similar?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Greg

The main concern in a multi unit building is structural building integrity as in structural modifications/replacement not a replacement of an existing feature such as a new toilet though in some states a permit is technically need to replace a toilet.

What is your concern over?
GregoryT1
Posts: 315
Posted:
hi,

Thanks Sheila for a good punch list of items. To answer your questions it looks like the fines are only applicable for the rules and regulations and permitting is not part of that section.

Kerry, Yes the quote is from the CCR'rs and there is no section for architectural review.

John by asking the question I think you nailed it. You are right, the section I have is really alterations and improvements and not "like to like replacements. '' So no document support for condo needing to be involved with like replacement.

It looks like only when there is alterations and improvements then the condo is involved legally.

We are in a stacked building and someone else problems become our problem very quickly. The broken water heater affected five floors. I am trying to figure a way to get permitting done without the condo assn overstepping its boundaries. We know when work is being done simply by being in a small building and all equipment and work being done we see it and hear it .

The Assn sent an email as fyi on the list of things that is allowed with and without a permit. That was an fyi and cya and more of useful information.

I just don't want to inherit a problem down the road due to non permitted work. The idea of subrogation in an insurance claim is my idea of a condo assn root canal.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Generally in my jurisdiction a permit is not required to replace items such as HVAC and water heaters. That said, a rule requiring repairs and replacements must be performed by licensed contractors approved by the HOA is not unreasonable provided the HOA is only assuring proper licensing and insurance.

I sure some will disagree, but in multi unit buildings, fire, flooding and carbon monoxide risks are real.
GregoryT1
Posts: 315
Posted:
hi to all and Dean,

I did find that in the by laws fines can be done if the CCR's are not followed. CCR's only cover new or modifications and not like to like changes in the individual unit dwelling.

I still have the same problem with "like to like" changes in individual units which is not covered in the condo docs but the local municipality wants permitting and inspection. The three choices are the following.

1. Should the condo assn (it can't fine in this situation) contact the local municipality and call out various un-permitted work? Is it overstepping its bounds?

2. Should a unit owner contact the municipality and have the call out the various un-permitted work in the other unit? Incredible small building and the social implications.

3. Current situation is that the condo assn has informed the municipality rules to the unit owners and let sleeping dogs continue to sleep?

This is a very tiny stacked condo building.

Thanks I am looking for the practical solution. Water heaters, furnace, HVAC, etc all have been done with no permits. We had one instance of bad workmanship affecting others.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Seeing on the news homes exploding because of gas leaks, I would find a way to have the work reviewed/redone by a licensed contractor.

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