Changes in Board Meeting Agenda Packets

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Good afternoon,

I would like to say upfront that I am not an expert, but very eager to learn. So if something below is misstated, does not make sense, or it is clear that I do not have the big picture, please inform me if you have the time.

I joined a committee of my HOA two years ago. As I have stated, I understood that I had a lack of knowledge and always asked questions, asked for documents, etc. This did not make me friends. But I did learn a lot, and I would then bring up red flags (issues that seemed as red flags to me) through email and at meetings to our committee. Then I was given information that there were "meetings before meetings" to have responses and game plans for when I brought up the issues. It become too much of a game to me, and I realized I was not making a positive impact, so I resigned. It started to impact me mentally and emotionally, effect my full-time job, (which is a very meaningful career that I get a lot of enjoyment out of, and my inquisitive mind is very welcomed), and robbed my three kids of an energy-charged mother for the time I was going through this. Did I make a good decision to quit? Probably not. But when I resigned, I wrote an email to management and CC'd the director and chair of the committee. This is what I was instructed to do. Here is where my question comes in: When they released the agenda for the upcoming board meeting in which my resignation would be accepted by the board, they included my resignation letter. There were two other people on the committee that also resigned when they heard of my resignation, and of course their letters were attached as well. But this had never been done before. A lot of members from this committee has quit over the past two years, and their letters were not included in the agenda. The rest of the agenda was very informative as well. There were links and attachments for the minutes of every committee meeting, financial documents attached for upcoming maintenance or repairs that needed to be approved, etc. This also has never been done before. Our committee minutes have never been attached to the agenda before a board meeting as long as I have been attending these board meetings. This was actually one of the "issues" I brought up at a committee meeting. I asked why a director of the board brought up a question from a topic we discussed at the last committee meeting when we had not seen or approved those committee meeting minutes yet. I thought that the board were supposed to receive a copy of the prior month's committee meeting minutes AFTER the committee had reviewed the minutes and approved them. The response I received was that the board did receive the prior months minutes and the chair, director, and CM did not "remember" that question from the board member at the meeting. But at the time, there was not a beautifully drafted agenda with links and attachments of all the committee meeting minutes - So how would I know what they had? Anyways, I got a little off topic. My concern is that was the only month the agenda was so beautifully drafted and informative. Even the board meeting from last month and this month included no links to financial documents or committee meeting minutes. I am afraid I said something wrong in my email and they made that agenda uniform with all attachments so they could display my email that made a statement "I still have a lot to learn". The rest of the email was very kind and professional, expressed no anger and had zero emotion, but there is that statement. That statement in the way it was made was ambiguous and could be manipulated. And yes, you know it, I did ask a question about why the content and layout of the agenda changed for only that one month.

Questions: I know there are laws that state that rules and regulations must be enforced uniformly. 1) Could it be argued that changing the content and layout of an agenda should be uniform month to month? 2) Am I being paranoid about the statement I made in the email and overthinking this? 3) Would there be another reason why content and layout of an agenda would be different for one month?

Also, I have been reading posts on this page for a while. It is so enlightening and I have been able to find so many resources to knowledge because of this page. One of the things I learned is that it is MY responsibility to make sure I have the most current and accurate version of our CC&R's and Bylaws. I have a version of our CC&R's but it had some inconsistencies on it that one person blogged about on here, so I went to the recorder's office to pick up a new set of CC&R's. The recorders office said that my property did not have any CC&R's recorded. I did not want to quit there so I called my title insurance agency and asked them where they got my CC&R's that I have. I was told they receive documents from the association and that is one of the reasons why we have to pay a fee for resale packets and other services to the association. But she told me to use the instrument number and book number stamped on the pages of the resale documents and that I could find them that way at the recorders office. Nope. Those instrument numbers and book numbers are indeed listed, but they are not for CC&Rs. Unfortunately, I was not able to get a certified copy with either the recorders office or my title insurance agency. Is there any other advice on how to receive a certified copy of the CC&Rs?

I have a feeling that some advice I may be given is to get a lawyer. I am contemplating that, but I am seriously asking the question if this is worth it? You may be wondering if there is more going on, what all have I brought up at committee meetings and board meetings? A lot. I have brought up a lot, and only the two times that I have actually stood up at board meetings is when the issues got resolved. But I start to feel like I'm a pest. Why am I the only one seeing these certain things? And now I can't sleep at night because I have noticed the difference in the one agenda and I fear it is for some reason related to my email.

If you have gotten this far - thank you.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DelilaW on 05/21/2024 10:08 PM
... snip ....
Questions: I know there are laws that state that rules and regulations must be enforced uniformly. 1) Could it be argued that changing the content and layout of an agenda should be uniform month to month? 2) Am I being paranoid about the statement I made in the email and overthinking this? 3) Would there be another reason why content and layout of an agenda would be different for one month?
... snip ...

My take on things:

1) There could be good reasons for changing content and layout of agendas (too much info, too little info, previous layout is unclear/confusing, etc. etc.). And I've never heard of a requirement anywhere that says things must be uniform, although there are certain items that need to be included in every agenda. Think about it: if there were such a requirement, it would prevent anyone from correcting mistakes or improving their processes. That would be counterproductive at best.

2) Probably. Depending on how your state defines "association records", your resignation may very well be part of them. What's done is done.

3) See answer 1 above. The content of a board meeting may change from month to month, depending on the nature of the business that needs to be conducted. It's true that there are standard items: roll call/proof of quorum, approval of past minutes, old business, and new business. But there may be additional things to be added that could reasonably fall under new business, but may not.

I get the sense that you suspect that the board and/or the community manager are up to no good. I won't say that this is typical for folks who are new to HOA or condo living, but there are always a few newbies who misunderstand the nature of these things and who get upset over what are normal business practices.

It is pretty typical for boards to get some things wrong. After all, typically the only qualification for serving on the board is being a homeowner, and the only qualification for that is having enough money. Board members don't suddenly acquire the knowledge they need when they're elected. I personally have spent 14+ years on condo boards, 5+ years on this website, currently serving as an officer in my community, and have worked for 18 years for the new home builder who built my community. I still learn new things and view things in a new light. It just goes with experience. And being an effective board member is a tough gig. Not only do you need knowledge and skills, you have to have the right temperament (or develop it fast). Many first year board members spend that first year in a mild panic as they discover how little they know, and they may think about quitting more than once.

I will say that if I were so upset about something that it's affecting my life and mental state, I'd view that as a hint that I need to step back. Very little of what happens in a community association is worth that - and of the few things that are worth getting upset over, being that stressed out only harms your ability to make good decisions and to create real change if it's needed.

My personal yardstick for "should I do something about this" is looking to see if there are significant financial consequences to whatever has caught my eye. If the answer is yes, and if the cost of fixing the whatever is proportional to the harm that's being done, then maybe I get busy. Otherwise I accept that different boards will make different dumb choices, and probably nobody is going to die over it.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Correspondence to and from the association can be included among the documents any homeowner (including you) is entitled to request and review. That might not have been known two years ago, which is why the board attaches them to the agenda. This way, you can avoid the rumor mill – people can read the letter and decide for themselves. If they have questions, they can be adult enough to ask you.

I don’t know what you wrote in that letter – hopefully you kept it professional and didn’t say things like “I can’t work with so and so because he’s a jackass.” It’s better to say you are resigning, thank the board for the opportunity to serve, and then request a meeting with the board because you have some concerns that arose during your tenure and want to clear them up. That’s where you could bring up this
“meetings before meetings” to plan responses to your questions – and I hope you’re willing to disclose where you got that information from.

Regarding your question on why a board member would ask about something discussed at the last committee meeting when those minutes haven’t been approved – let’s start with remembering a committee IS NOT the board. The committee is there to review or research specific information and make recommendations to the board, so I don’t see the problem with a board member asking questions. The BOARD makes the final decisions – it doesn’t have to accept the committee recommendations and the committee only makes final decisions if it’s authorized by the board or that authority is granted to it in the documents.

This is why committees are chartered by the board, which should make it clear as to what it wants the committee to do. Committee members also serve at the pleasure of the board so they can be added or dropped for whatever reason Some Bylaws mandate certain committees and what they’re empowered to do – take a look at yours to see what’s what.

I don’t see why you’re concerned about the agenda format – you might think they did all this to embarrass you, and perhaps that was the motivation of someone (or two or three). If this agenda was as informative as you say, others may notice and make compliments to that effect that would encourage the board to continue to do this. THAT should be the ultimate goal – transparency.

Finally, don’t worry how people will take your saying “I still have a lot to learn” – you’re not the only one (and that includes board members!) You may be the only one who was honest enough to admit it – personally, I respect people who know what they know and what they don’t and pursue knowledge instead of making it up as they go.

PS - Some of your paragraphs are a bit too long, so you may want to watch that next time (one idea per paragraph is easier to understand).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DelilaW on 05/21/2024 10:08 PM
Good afternoon,

I would like to say upfront that I am not an expert, but very eager to learn. So if something below is misstated, does not make sense, or it is clear that I do not have the big picture, please inform me if you have the time.

I joined a committee of my HOA two years ago. As I have stated, I understood that I had a lack of knowledge and always asked questions, asked for documents, etc. This did not make me friends. But I did learn a lot, and I would then bring up red flags (issues that seemed as red flags to me) through email and at meetings to our committee. Then I was given information that there were "meetings before meetings" to have responses and game plans for when I brought up the issues. It become too much of a game to me, and I realized I was not making a positive impact, so I resigned. It started to impact me mentally and emotionally, effect my full-time job, (which is a very meaningful career that I get a lot of enjoyment out of, and my inquisitive mind is very welcomed), and robbed my three kids of an energy-charged mother for the time I was going through this. Did I make a good decision to quit? Probably not. But when I resigned, I wrote an email to management and CC'd the director and chair of the committee. This is what I was instructed to do. Here is where my question comes in: When they released the agenda for the upcoming board meeting in which my resignation would be accepted by the board, they included my resignation letter. There were two other people on the committee that also resigned when they heard of my resignation, and of course their letters were attached as well. But this had never been done before. A lot of members from this committee has quit over the past two years, and their letters were not included in the agenda. The rest of the agenda was very informative as well. There were links and attachments for the minutes of every committee meeting, financial documents attached for upcoming maintenance or repairs that needed to be approved, etc. This also has never been done before. Our committee minutes have never been attached to the agenda before a board meeting as long as I have been attending these board meetings. This was actually one of the "issues" I brought up at a committee meeting. I asked why a director of the board brought up a question from a topic we discussed at the last committee meeting when we had not seen or approved those committee meeting minutes yet. I thought that the board were supposed to receive a copy of the prior month's committee meeting minutes AFTER the committee had reviewed the minutes and approved them. The response I received was that the board did receive the prior months minutes and the chair, director, and CM did not "remember" that question from the board member at the meeting. But at the time, there was not a beautifully drafted agenda with links and attachments of all the committee meeting minutes - So how would I know what they had? Anyways, I got a little off topic. My concern is that was the only month the agenda was so beautifully drafted and informative. Even the board meeting from last month and this month included no links to financial documents or committee meeting minutes. I am afraid I said something wrong in my email and they made that agenda uniform with all attachments so they could display my email that made a statement "I still have a lot to learn". The rest of the email was very kind and professional, expressed no anger and had zero emotion, but there is that statement. That statement in the way it was made was ambiguous and could be manipulated. And yes, you know it, I did ask a question about why the content and layout of the agenda changed for only that one month.

Questions: I know there are laws that state that rules and regulations must be enforced uniformly. 1) Could it be argued that changing the content and layout of an agenda should be uniform month to month? 2) Am I being paranoid about the statement I made in the email and overthinking this? 3) Would there be another reason why content and layout of an agenda would be different for one month?

Also, I have been reading posts on this page for a while. It is so enlightening and I have been able to find so many resources to knowledge because of this page. One of the things I learned is that it is MY responsibility to make sure I have the most current and accurate version of our CC&R's and Bylaws. I have a version of our CC&R's but it had some inconsistencies on it that one person blogged about on here, so I went to the recorder's office to pick up a new set of CC&R's. The recorders office said that my property did not have any CC&R's recorded. I did not want to quit there so I called my title insurance agency and asked them where they got my CC&R's that I have. I was told they receive documents from the association and that is one of the reasons why we have to pay a fee for resale packets and other services to the association. But she told me to use the instrument number and book number stamped on the pages of the resale documents and that I could find them that way at the recorders office. Nope. Those instrument numbers and book numbers are indeed listed, but they are not for CC&Rs. Unfortunately, I was not able to get a certified copy with either the recorders office or my title insurance agency. Is there any other advice on how to receive a certified copy of the CC&Rs?

I have a feeling that some advice I may be given is to get a lawyer. I am contemplating that, but I am seriously asking the question if this is worth it? You may be wondering if there is more going on, what all have I brought up at committee meetings and board meetings? A lot. I have brought up a lot, and only the two times that I have actually stood up at board meetings is when the issues got resolved. But I start to feel like I'm a pest. Why am I the only one seeing these certain things? And now I can't sleep at night because I have noticed the difference in the one agenda and I fear it is for some reason related to my email.

If you have gotten this far - thank you.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DelilaW on 05/21/2024 10:08 PM
Good afternoon,

I would like to say upfront that I am not an expert, but very eager to learn. So if something below is misstated, does not make sense, or it is clear that I do not have the big picture, please inform me if you have the time.

I joined a committee of my HOA two years ago. As I have stated, I understood that I had a lack of knowledge and always asked questions, asked for documents, etc. This did not make me friends. But I did learn a lot, and I would then bring up red flags (issues that seemed as red flags to me) through email and at meetings to our committee. Then I was given information that there were "meetings before meetings" to have responses and game plans for when I brought up the issues. It become too much of a game to me, and I realized I was not making a positive impact, so I resigned. It started to impact me mentally and emotionally, effect my full-time job, (which is a very meaningful career that I get a lot of enjoyment out of, and my inquisitive mind is very welcomed), and robbed my three kids of an energy-charged mother for the time I was going through this. Did I make a good decision to quit? Probably not. But when I resigned, I wrote an email to management and CC'd the director and chair of the committee. This is what I was instructed to do. Here is where my question comes in: When they released the agenda for the upcoming board meeting in which my resignation would be accepted by the board, they included my resignation letter. There were two other people on the committee that also resigned when they heard of my resignation, and of course their letters were attached as well. But this had never been done before. A lot of members from this committee has quit over the past two years, and their letters were not included in the agenda. The rest of the agenda was very informative as well. There were links and attachments for the minutes of every committee meeting, financial documents attached for upcoming maintenance or repairs that needed to be approved, etc. This also has never been done before. Our committee minutes have never been attached to the agenda before a board meeting as long as I have been attending these board meetings. This was actually one of the "issues" I brought up at a committee meeting. I asked why a director of the board brought up a question from a topic we discussed at the last committee meeting when we had not seen or approved those committee meeting minutes yet. I thought that the board were supposed to receive a copy of the prior month's committee meeting minutes AFTER the committee had reviewed the minutes and approved them. The response I received was that the board did receive the prior months minutes and the chair, director, and CM did not "remember" that question from the board member at the meeting. But at the time, there was not a beautifully drafted agenda with links and attachments of all the committee meeting minutes - So how would I know what they had? Anyways, I got a little off topic. My concern is that was the only month the agenda was so beautifully drafted and informative. Even the board meeting from last month and this month included no links to financial documents or committee meeting minutes. I am afraid I said something wrong in my email and they made that agenda uniform with all attachments so they could display my email that made a statement "I still have a lot to learn". The rest of the email was very kind and professional, expressed no anger and had zero emotion, but there is that statement. That statement in the way it was made was ambiguous and could be manipulated. And yes, you know it, I did ask a question about why the content and layout of the agenda changed for only that one month.

Questions: I know there are laws that state that rules and regulations must be enforced uniformly. 1) Could it be argued that changing the content and layout of an agenda should be uniform month to month? 2) Am I being paranoid about the statement I made in the email and overthinking this? 3) Would there be another reason why content and layout of an agenda would be different for one month?

Also, I have been reading posts on this page for a while. It is so enlightening and I have been able to find so many resources to knowledge because of this page. One of the things I learned is that it is MY responsibility to make sure I have the most current and accurate version of our CC&R's and Bylaws. I have a version of our CC&R's but it had some inconsistencies on it that one person blogged about on here, so I went to the recorder's office to pick up a new set of CC&R's. The recorders office said that my property did not have any CC&R's recorded. I did not want to quit there so I called my title insurance agency and asked them where they got my CC&R's that I have. I was told they receive documents from the association and that is one of the reasons why we have to pay a fee for resale packets and other services to the association. But she told me to use the instrument number and book number stamped on the pages of the resale documents and that I could find them that way at the recorders office. Nope. Those instrument numbers and book numbers are indeed listed, but they are not for CC&Rs. Unfortunately, I was not able to get a certified copy with either the recorders office or my title insurance agency. Is there any other advice on how to receive a certified copy of the CC&Rs?

I have a feeling that some advice I may be given is to get a lawyer. I am contemplating that, but I am seriously asking the question if this is worth it? You may be wondering if there is more going on, what all have I brought up at committee meetings and board meetings? A lot. I have brought up a lot, and only the two times that I have actually stood up at board meetings is when the issues got resolved. But I start to feel like I'm a pest. Why am I the only one seeing these certain things? And now I can't sleep at night because I have noticed the difference in the one agenda and I fear it is for some reason related to my email.

If you have gotten this far - thank you.

Serving on HOA functions can be upsetting. If you are losing sleep over your HOA, my advice is you quit reading minutes and agendas and enjoy your life. HOAs can’t satisfy everybody under perfect governance and many people involved with HOA governance are clueless about their responsibility. If the HOA is so broken you do not believe you can let it be, your best option may be to move where you will be happy.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 05/22/2024 5:09 AM
Correspondence to and from the association can be included among the documents any homeowner (including you) is entitled to request and review. That might not have been known two years ago, which is why the board attaches them to the agenda. This way, you can avoid the rumor mill – people can read the letter and decide for themselves. If they have questions, they can be adult enough to ask you.

I don’t know what you wrote in that letter – hopefully you kept it professional and didn’t say things like “I can’t work with so and so because he’s a jackass.” It’s better to say you are resigning, thank the board for the opportunity to serve, and then request a meeting with the board because you have some concerns that arose during your tenure and want to clear them up. That’s where you could bring up this
“meetings before meetings” to plan responses to your questions – and I hope you’re willing to disclose where you got that information from.

Regarding your question on why a board member would ask about something discussed at the last committee meeting when those minutes haven’t been approved – let’s start with remembering a committee IS NOT the board. The committee is there to review or research specific information and make recommendations to the board, so I don’t see the problem with a board member asking questions. The BOARD makes the final decisions – it doesn’t have to accept the committee recommendations and the committee only makes final decisions if it’s authorized by the board or that authority is granted to it in the documents.

This is why committees are chartered by the board, which should make it clear as to what it wants the committee to do. Committee members also serve at the pleasure of the board so they can be added or dropped for whatever reason Some Bylaws mandate certain committees and what they’re empowered to do – take a look at yours to see what’s what.

I don’t see why you’re concerned about the agenda format – you might think they did all this to embarrass you, and perhaps that was the motivation of someone (or two or three). If this agenda was as informative as you say, others may notice and make compliments to that effect that would encourage the board to continue to do this. THAT should be the ultimate goal – transparency.

Finally, don’t worry how people will take your saying “I still have a lot to learn” – you’re not the only one (and that includes board members!) You may be the only one who was honest enough to admit it – personally, I respect people who know what they know and what they don’t and pursue knowledge instead of making it up as they go.

PS - Some of your paragraphs are a bit too long, so you may want to watch that next time (one idea per paragraph is easier to understand).

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

SheliaH, You are a natural educator and simplify many issues brought to this site. I smile when I see you have responded to something; so thanks for your contributions.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

When you wrote "released the agenda," does that mean it's mailed to all owners? Or is available at the Board meeting room to owners?

Shelia is one of my faves too! And her advice to create actual paragraphs is excellent. I'm not sure I have the time or energy to read it through it again.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 05/22/2024 5:09 AM
Correspondence to and from the association can be included among the documents any homeowner (including you) is entitled to request and review. That might not have been known two years ago, which is why the board attaches them to the agenda. This way, you can avoid the rumor mill – people can read the letter and decide for themselves. If they have questions, they can be adult enough to ask you.

I don’t know what you wrote in that letter – hopefully you kept it professional and didn’t say things like “I can’t work with so and so because he’s a jackass.” It’s better to say you are resigning, thank the board for the opportunity to serve, and then request a meeting with the board because you have some concerns that arose during your tenure and want to clear them up. That’s where you could bring up this
“meetings before meetings” to plan responses to your questions – and I hope you’re willing to disclose where you got that information from.

Regarding your question on why a board member would ask about something discussed at the last committee meeting when those minutes haven’t been approved – let’s start with remembering a committee IS NOT the board. The committee is there to review or research specific information and make recommendations to the board, so I don’t see the problem with a board member asking questions. The BOARD makes the final decisions – it doesn’t have to accept the committee recommendations and the committee only makes final decisions if it’s authorized by the board or that authority is granted to it in the documents.

This is why committees are chartered by the board, which should make it clear as to what it wants the committee to do. Committee members also serve at the pleasure of the board so they can be added or dropped for whatever reason Some Bylaws mandate certain committees and what they’re empowered to do – take a look at yours to see what’s what.

I don’t see why you’re concerned about the agenda format – you might think they did all this to embarrass you, and perhaps that was the motivation of someone (or two or three). If this agenda was as informative as you say, others may notice and make compliments to that effect that would encourage the board to continue to do this. THAT should be the ultimate goal – transparency.

Finally, don’t worry how people will take your saying “I still have a lot to learn” – you’re not the only one (and that includes board members!) You may be the only one who was honest enough to admit it – personally, I respect people who know what they know and what they don’t and pursue knowledge instead of making it up as they go.

PS - Some of your paragraphs are a bit too long, so you may want to watch that next time (one idea per paragraph is easier to understand).

Good morning,

Thank you for your reply. Yes, my letter was very professional. It was short saying that me and family have determined it is best for me to resign from the committee, that I was going to miss seeing everyone often, and I said that I learned a lot of lessons and still had a lot to learn.

My concern is NOT that my letter was included. I'm all for transparency. That's what I was trying to get as a member. My concern is, did I say something wrong that can be used against me? My concern developed when I noticed that the agenda used for the next months did not include all the links to committee minutes, financial documents for upcoming maintenance, etc. The agendas before and after my resignation were short and bare bones for every agenda item. The only month that had links and attachments for agenda items was the month I resigned. I hope that explains why I feel I said something wrong. I'm trying to seek outside thoughts and trying to think of another reason why that one month in particular was different. My brain is not allowing me to - it is only allowing me to think it was to show something I said wrong in the email. I need experienced professionals to tell me other reasons. But if it was to embarrass me, is there anything embarrassing in my email? Can I be sued by anything I said in my email?

Your advice of requesting a meeting to go and discuss this with the board - awesome advice. I wish I would have done this! I did not know this is something I could do. When I was on the committee, I would ask the director and chair numerous times how to bring "issues" to the board (I was always asking the director questions and if this is something the president and others should know) and the director always told me she would bring it up in executive session. But now I know what executive session is, and I was being blown off. Is it too late to request a meeting? Its been months, so would it be petty if I brought up old issues after I already resigned? The issues are not how I "feel" I was treated, but are the actual issues that I was trying to bring up involving the HOA finances, vendor bids, etc. that led to the "meetings before meetings".

I would also like to clarify something from your second paragraph. I did understand that the committee is there to review or research specific information and make recommendations to the board. My concern is not that the board member asked a question, but it was that they asked a question from meeting minutes that were not seen or approved by our committee. I'm not sure if I read it in a state law or governing documents, but committee minutes are required to be reviewed and approved by the committee before they go to the board (or is that Robert Rules of Order?) Why am I concerned about reviewing meeting minutes before they go to the board? Because I learned a lesson through this experience: At one of the committee meetings, I recommended that we put up signs displaying where water is located at events because at one event most attendees could not find the water. I was told "sure, you bring it". I happily did it. But I assumed I would get reimbursed. They purchased one time banners that cost hundreds of dollars a piece for certain activities, but refused to give me thirty dollars back for the water sign. Why couldn't they get a nice water sign through the same company? When I asked what the process was for reimbursement, the response I got was that the minutes said I would donate it, so they refused reimbursement (they actually treated my whole request for reimbursement as a joke - laughed - said good luck getting that money back). The whole argument was that I should have reviewed the minutes and requested changes. At this time, I STILL had not realized that I was not making friends with some individuals. But from then on, I always made sure I requested changes made to the meeting minutes when they used my name (the changes were never made, but at least I had an email making the request). But how can you review meeting minutes if they give them to the board before you? NOTE: I don't want it to seem like the reimbursement is an issue that Im asking for help with here. I just used that as an example.

I now realize that it was my constant questions and concerns I brought up that made individuals feel like I was questioning THEM, instead of trying to work with them and trying to learn from them. Now after much much thought, they MAY have felt like "who is this woman that just moved here only a few years ago and has zero experience on a committee or board trying to question ME who has lived here for 20+ years?" And that is probably how the friction started. I should have realized sooner that I needed to change approaches (hence my "lessons learned" comment).

Thank you for your response. I hope my paragraphs are more coherent. I'm actually starting to get rushed now. But I want to make sure that I say that I appreciate everyone's responses to my post, and I hope my reply does not come across argumentative - I wanted to only clarify a point if I felt I didn't communicate it well enough in the original. I will check back later to respond to others. Thank you again for helping me sort out my worries and for any advice you have that will help me in the future - after all, this is my family's home and the community my children are growing up in.

TamaraG7 (Florida)
Posts: 35

Posted:

My .02 as a Florida licensed CAM for over 10 years:

I've managed over 75 associations (portfolio & on-site) and never have included any letters of resignation in a meeting packet.

BOD meeting packets consist of the following:

*Agenda - not necessary to elaborate on every item; agendas are the outline of the meeting
*Draft Minutes from last BOD meeting & any committee meeting minutes which were approved at the last committee meeting
(Minutes are not Aesop's Fables; they are motions made & actions taken along with brief discussion. That's it; one-two pages at most.)
*Manager Report
*Proposals
*Financials

As a courtesy, Agenda & draft minutes can be emailed to owners but it's not required; posting on-site 48 hours (FL) is the requirement.
No links in Agenda except for that of Zoom login.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

> did I say something wrong that can be used against me?

I haven't seen everything you wrote. But almost certainly no, you did not.

Everyone is different, I can only speak for myself. But when someone I dislike leaves the Board: I do a little singing, I do a little dancing, and then I put them completely out of my mind.

I feel like something of a hypocrite saying this, but - you should just walk away from this and get back to your life.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

BillD gives good advice, Delilia.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

BillD gives good advice, Delilia.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/22/2024 10:17 AM
When you wrote "released the agenda," does that mean it's mailed to all owners? Or is available at the Board meeting room to owners?

Shelia is one of my faves too! And her advice to create actual paragraphs is excellent. I'm not sure I have the time or energy to read it through it again.

Hi,

Yes, our agenda is sent out in email to those who have subscribed to emails, and it is also available on our portal. However, the one that is on our portal was different - it was bare bones like the other agendas from prior and past months. Only the one that was included in the emails was very different. But it was not the actual document, the email had a link that sent you to a one drive that had the agenda uploaded there. So there are two places where they keep documentation, the ones in the one drive and the ones that they put on the portal.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/22/2024 2:14 PM
> did I say something wrong that can be used against me?

I haven't seen everything you wrote. But almost certainly no, you did not.

Everyone is different, I can only speak for myself. But when someone I dislike leaves the Board: I do a little singing, I do a little dancing, and then I put them completely out of my mind.

I feel like something of a hypocrite saying this, but - you should just walk away from this and get back to your life.

Bill

Thank you, Bill. I am trying to walk away, and I want to. I did not even go to the board meeting last night. My husband went for us.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/22/2024 4:40 AM

Posted By DelilaW on 05/21/2024 10:08 PM
... snip ....
Questions: I know there are laws that state that rules and regulations must be enforced uniformly. 1) Could it be argued that changing the content and layout of an agenda should be uniform month to month? 2) Am I being paranoid about the statement I made in the email and overthinking this? 3) Would there be another reason why content and layout of an agenda would be different for one month?
... snip ...

My take on things:

1) There could be good reasons for changing content and layout of agendas (too much info, too little info, previous layout is unclear/confusing, etc. etc.). And I've never heard of a requirement anywhere that says things must be uniform, although there are certain items that need to be included in every agenda. Think about it: if there were such a requirement, it would prevent anyone from correcting mistakes or improving their processes. That would be counterproductive at best.

2) Probably. Depending on how your state defines "association records", your resignation may very well be part of them. What's done is done.

3) See answer 1 above. The content of a board meeting may change from month to month, depending on the nature of the business that needs to be conducted. It's true that there are standard items: roll call/proof of quorum, approval of past minutes, old business, and new business. But there may be additional things to be added that could reasonably fall under new business, but may not.

I get the sense that you suspect that the board and/or the community manager are up to no good. I won't say that this is typical for folks who are new to HOA or condo living, but there are always a few newbies who misunderstand the nature of these things and who get upset over what are normal business practices.

It is pretty typical for boards to get some things wrong. After all, typically the only qualification for serving on the board is being a homeowner, and the only qualification for that is having enough money. Board members don't suddenly acquire the knowledge they need when they're elected. I personally have spent 14+ years on condo boards, 5+ years on this website, currently serving as an officer in my community, and have worked for 18 years for the new home builder who built my community. I still learn new things and view things in a new light. It just goes with experience. And being an effective board member is a tough gig. Not only do you need knowledge and skills, you have to have the right temperament (or develop it fast). Many first year board members spend that first year in a mild panic as they discover how little they know, and they may think about quitting more than once.

I will say that if I were so upset about something that it's affecting my life and mental state, I'd view that as a hint that I need to step back. Very little of what happens in a community association is worth that - and of the few things that are worth getting upset over, being that stressed out only harms your ability to make good decisions and to create real change if it's needed.

My personal yardstick for "should I do something about this" is looking to see if there are significant financial consequences to whatever has caught my eye. If the answer is yes, and if the cost of fixing the whatever is proportional to the harm that's being done, then maybe I get busy. Otherwise I accept that different boards will make different dumb choices, and probably nobody is going to die over it.

Thank you, and I appreciate your advice. I needed to hear a lot of the advice of "take a step back", and "walk away". The emotional damage has been immense. I hate "quitting when things get rough" but there is a lot of advice here agreeing that I should. And if they included my letter to embarrass me by showing I said that I had a lot to learn, then I will let them have the last laugh. But I will still observe this website, continue to the classes at the CAI chapter here when they host them and strengthen my knowledge.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DeanJ on 05/22/2024 6:34 AM

Posted By DelilaW on 05/21/2024 10:08 PM
Good afternoon,

I would like to say upfront that I am not an expert, but very eager to learn. So if something below is misstated, does not make sense, or it is clear that I do not have the big picture, please inform me if you have the time.

I joined a committee of my HOA two years ago. As I have stated, I understood that I had a lack of knowledge and always asked questions, asked for documents, etc. This did not make me friends. But I did learn a lot, and I would then bring up red flags (issues that seemed as red flags to me) through email and at meetings to our committee. Then I was given information that there were "meetings before meetings" to have responses and game plans for when I brought up the issues. It become too much of a game to me, and I realized I was not making a positive impact, so I resigned. It started to impact me mentally and emotionally, effect my full-time job, (which is a very meaningful career that I get a lot of enjoyment out of, and my inquisitive mind is very welcomed), and robbed my three kids of an energy-charged mother for the time I was going through this. Did I make a good decision to quit? Probably not. But when I resigned, I wrote an email to management and CC'd the director and chair of the committee. This is what I was instructed to do. Here is where my question comes in: When they released the agenda for the upcoming board meeting in which my resignation would be accepted by the board, they included my resignation letter. There were two other people on the committee that also resigned when they heard of my resignation, and of course their letters were attached as well. But this had never been done before. A lot of members from this committee has quit over the past two years, and their letters were not included in the agenda. The rest of the agenda was very informative as well. There were links and attachments for the minutes of every committee meeting, financial documents attached for upcoming maintenance or repairs that needed to be approved, etc. This also has never been done before. Our committee minutes have never been attached to the agenda before a board meeting as long as I have been attending these board meetings. This was actually one of the "issues" I brought up at a committee meeting. I asked why a director of the board brought up a question from a topic we discussed at the last committee meeting when we had not seen or approved those committee meeting minutes yet. I thought that the board were supposed to receive a copy of the prior month's committee meeting minutes AFTER the committee had reviewed the minutes and approved them. The response I received was that the board did receive the prior months minutes and the chair, director, and CM did not "remember" that question from the board member at the meeting. But at the time, there was not a beautifully drafted agenda with links and attachments of all the committee meeting minutes - So how would I know what they had? Anyways, I got a little off topic. My concern is that was the only month the agenda was so beautifully drafted and informative. Even the board meeting from last month and this month included no links to financial documents or committee meeting minutes. I am afraid I said something wrong in my email and they made that agenda uniform with all attachments so they could display my email that made a statement "I still have a lot to learn". The rest of the email was very kind and professional, expressed no anger and had zero emotion, but there is that statement. That statement in the way it was made was ambiguous and could be manipulated. And yes, you know it, I did ask a question about why the content and layout of the agenda changed for only that one month.

Questions: I know there are laws that state that rules and regulations must be enforced uniformly. 1) Could it be argued that changing the content and layout of an agenda should be uniform month to month? 2) Am I being paranoid about the statement I made in the email and overthinking this? 3) Would there be another reason why content and layout of an agenda would be different for one month?

Also, I have been reading posts on this page for a while. It is so enlightening and I have been able to find so many resources to knowledge because of this page. One of the things I learned is that it is MY responsibility to make sure I have the most current and accurate version of our CC&R's and Bylaws. I have a version of our CC&R's but it had some inconsistencies on it that one person blogged about on here, so I went to the recorder's office to pick up a new set of CC&R's. The recorders office said that my property did not have any CC&R's recorded. I did not want to quit there so I called my title insurance agency and asked them where they got my CC&R's that I have. I was told they receive documents from the association and that is one of the reasons why we have to pay a fee for resale packets and other services to the association. But she told me to use the instrument number and book number stamped on the pages of the resale documents and that I could find them that way at the recorders office. Nope. Those instrument numbers and book numbers are indeed listed, but they are not for CC&Rs. Unfortunately, I was not able to get a certified copy with either the recorders office or my title insurance agency. Is there any other advice on how to receive a certified copy of the CC&Rs?

I have a feeling that some advice I may be given is to get a lawyer. I am contemplating that, but I am seriously asking the question if this is worth it? You may be wondering if there is more going on, what all have I brought up at committee meetings and board meetings? A lot. I have brought up a lot, and only the two times that I have actually stood up at board meetings is when the issues got resolved. But I start to feel like I'm a pest. Why am I the only one seeing these certain things? And now I can't sleep at night because I have noticed the difference in the one agenda and I fear it is for some reason related to my email.

If you have gotten this far - thank you.

Serving on HOA functions can be upsetting. If you are losing sleep over your HOA, my advice is you quit reading minutes and agendas and enjoy your life. HOAs can’t satisfy everybody under perfect governance and many people involved with HOA governance are clueless about their responsibility. If the HOA is so broken you do not believe you can let it be, your best option may be to move where you will be happy.

Thank you, Dean. Fortunately, we are moving - in a year. However, we will still own this home. But hopefully we find a good management company.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/22/2024 2:51 PM
BillD gives good advice, Delilia.

I agree. There is a lot of advice in here that I took a hard look it. Knowing it came from people that have significant experience (I love to read posts on this site), makes it easier for me to accept that I'm not ready or built for the types of things that go on. I tip my hat to all of you that had the backbone to keep at it and actually get things done.

DelilaW
Posts: 8

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TamaraG7 on 05/22/2024 12:15 PM
My .02 as a Florida licensed CAM for over 10 years:

I've managed over 75 associations (portfolio & on-site) and never have included any letters of resignation in a meeting packet.

BOD meeting packets consist of the following:

*Agenda - not necessary to elaborate on every item; agendas are the outline of the meeting
*Draft Minutes from last BOD meeting & any committee meeting minutes which were approved at the last committee meeting
(Minutes are not Aesop's Fables; they are motions made & actions taken along with brief discussion. That's it; one-two pages at most.)
*Manager Report
*Proposals
*Financials

As a courtesy, Agenda & draft minutes can be emailed to owners but it's not required; posting on-site 48 hours (FL) is the requirement.
No links in Agenda except for that of Zoom login.

Hi Tamara,

Thank you for the information.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

> The emotional damage has been immense.

I can dig it. I won't go into it here, but it was ElleN{0} who suggested that I might be suffering from a form of PTSD. And she was right. I managed to work through it but it was literally "work". My point being that your psychological health is a Real Thing, and you shouldn't ignore it.

I get the sense that you are concerned about saying something about how you admitted that "you have stuff to learn". I don't know what you exactly wrote, but nobody is going to take you to task for saying that. There's no shortage of a-holes on this Earth, but - there's simply not enough material there for some jerk to use to give you grief. And in case it's not obvious, HOAs worldwide suffer from a profound shortage of knowledge. One of the truly good ideas I've seen floated here on HOATalk is some kind of education / training for new Board members. But it'll probably never happen because too many people are confident that they already know it all. (Ref the Dunning-Kruger Effect).

It's too bad; I believe that the one thing that might save humanity's collective ass is education. But nobody wants to admit that they don't already know it all.

Best regards,

Bill

{0} And where the heck has she been? I miss her!

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Re: Dunning-Kruger -

There is an inverse relationship between confidence in one's knowledge and the actual amount of knowledge. When I was in college, there was an old saying: people with a Bachelor's degree feel pretty smart, and grad school shows them just how little they know.

Most of the long-term posters on this site say that they're still learning new things and gaining deeper understanding of the issues. That's a good sign, not something to be embarrassed about.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/25/2024 5:43 AM
Re: Dunning-Kruger -

There is an inverse relationship between confidence in one's knowledge and the actual amount of knowledge. When I was in college, there was an old saying: people with a Bachelor's degree feel pretty smart, and grad school shows them just how little they know.

Most of the long-term posters on this site say that they're still learning new things and gaining deeper understanding of the issues. That's a good sign, not something to be embarrassed about.

I completely agree.

DKE has been around since ~1999, I think? But it's only recently hit me that, as one of the (of course!) 'smart enough to have a realistic view of my ability' elite who will grumble about having to deal with idiots, the people on the *other side* (the 'over-estimate their ability' crowd)(the idiots) consider people like me to be a huge pain in the ass: we're always doubting and questioning them ("are you sure we're following proper procedure?"), which they find insulting ("he thinks he's so smart!"), and it gets in the way of whatever it is they're trying to do. And to be fair, they may indeed over-estimate their ability, but they don't get *everything* completely wrong all the time, any more than I am *always* right.

I wonder if anyone has ever looked into whether a group of "all Dunnings" or "all Krugers" (I don't know which is which) will work together better than a mix of both? I don't know. My *guess* is that it's problematic no matter how you mix 'em.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”