Electronic voting in member elections

Started by TerriS6 • 28 replies • 456 views

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TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

California is considering a bill to allow electronic voting.
Does anyone outside California use electronic voting?
If so, does the member have to sign a waiver that his vote will be secret?

RileyS
Posts: 54

Posted:

Our Bylaws state "Shall elect new Directors by secret written ballot as provided in these Bylaws"

Electronic Voting sounds like a good idea at this point. I would hope it would encourage more participation from the homeowners, but depending on how that law is written, if it get's implemented at all, would probably require a bylaw amendment on our part, and I don't really see that happening

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

I'd also like to hear more about E-voting as practiced in some HOAs whose members post here.

Not sure, Riley, but if eventually permitted by statute, CA HOAs would only need a rule change to their Election Rules, where Owners can express their opinions to the board during a state-required 28-day comment period, but have no vote.

RileyS
Posts: 54

Posted:

I agree about the rule change versus bylaw change, but it is going to depend on how the law is written

LoriM15
Posts: 1,008

Posted:

We used electronic voting for the first time for our January annual members meeting. It was great. We chose a company that specialized in Florida, so they know the statutory requirements and made sure we met them. They optionally can do the emails and mailings of the notices and the ballots.

We gave them a list of owners. They ran a campaign for everyone to sign up for electronic consent for notices and for electronic voting (two separate consents). We got a result of about 70% of the owners opting into electronic consent. We have an older community that doesn't always trust stuff like this, so your results might be better. The voting portion of it was very easy and straightforward, and the owner had to acknowledge their choices three times before the vote was recorded - so no one could say they didn't know who they were voting for. We only had one ballot measure and that voting was easy also.

The great part about electronic voting is, at least in Florida, the votes count automatically toward your quorum. We have a pretty low quorum so it's not bad to get enough people for the yearly board election, but if we had to get documents amended it would be critical. And we did save money on mailings because we had so many people sign up for electronic notices.

The interface that our property manager used to see how many responses had been received was very easy to use. He could see number of votes, but not the actual votes until after voting closed. We closed voting 10 minutes after the start of the meeting, then adjourned the meeting to count the paper ballots.

I'm not sure if the PM could see the actual votes of the owners. We do require people to sign their names on proxies, but actual election ballots are secret.

WendyM5
Posts: 1,486

Posted:

I used a service that was about $30 per vote and took about 1 hour to set up.
we went from getting less than 5 people showing up at the annual meeting to 60 people voting which is about 40% of the community.
We mailed out paper ballots AND gave the link to the online voting which we ran for about 2 months. No one turned in a paper ballot. We did not encourage that, but NC law requires it or electornic opt in and it only costs about $2.50 per letter sent.
1st week we got about 20% of the people to vote. Send out an email to encourage votes a few weeks latter and got another 15% and finally got another 5% the last few days.

Helps to have money issues on the ballot. Like increasing dues.

Only problem is if you farm it out it gets to be very expensive like $600 per vote and to keep the system fair it really shoudl be famred out.

vis ta vie

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

One point I found today is certain member elections in CA are required to be by secret ballot even if governing documents allow electronic voting. Some assessments, recall elections, Declaration amendments, etc. That would present a problem because an electronic vote is not secret.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

In most states where voting electronically is allowed for government elections, the voter is required to sign a waiver because the vote is not secret.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 04/19/2024 12:42 PM
We used electronic voting for the first time for our January annual members meeting. It was great. We chose a company that specialized in Florida, so they know the statutory requirements and made sure we met them. They optionally can do the emails and mailings of the notices and the ballots.

We gave them a list of owners. They ran a campaign for everyone to sign up for electronic consent for notices and for electronic voting (two separate consents). We got a result of about 70% of the owners opting into electronic consent. We have an older community that doesn't always trust stuff like this, so your results might be better. The voting portion of it was very easy and straightforward, and the owner had to acknowledge their choices three times before the vote was recorded - so no one could say they didn't know who they were voting for. We only had one ballot measure and that voting was easy also.

The great part about electronic voting is, at least in Florida, the votes count automatically toward your quorum. We have a pretty low quorum so it's not bad to get enough people for the yearly board election, but if we had to get documents amended it would be critical. And we did save money on mailings because we had so many people sign up for electronic notices.

The interface that our property manager used to see how many responses had been received was very easy to use. He could see number of votes, but not the actual votes until after voting closed. We closed voting 10 minutes after the start of the meeting, then adjourned the meeting to count the paper ballots.

I'm not sure if the PM could see the actual votes of the owners. We do require people to sign their names on proxies, but actual election ballots are secret.

Lori, did your consent forms contain any waivers? Thanks.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

Wendy, do you know why so expensive? Thanks.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

https://findhoalaw.com/ab-2159-electronic_secret_ballot/

RileyS
Posts: 54

Posted:

I see the proposed law was amended on the 15th:

"The association shall not use an electronic secret ballot for levying regular or special assessments, as provided for in Chapter 8 (commencing with Section 5600)."

So it's OK to use electronic secret ballots to elect Directors, but when it comes to money, it's not - what kind of message does that send?

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

Do any who do electronic voting have a way to preserve secret balloting?

Is paying an independent company "Inspectors of election" in CA, to collect electronic ballots the only way? And then they reveal the tabulations at the annual meeting? In CA, ballots must be kept a year of e inspection by any owner. But at present, such an owners would only see a bunch of anon. ballots. How would this statutorily required secrecy be maintained?

AidylP1
Posts: 107

Posted:

I've tested the software and isn't secure.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

Do they know how many other statutes would have to be revised for this to be effective? And isn't "electronic secret ballot" an oxymoron? Members are required to be allowed to observe the vote count - just how would that happen if electronic? Who would have access to the electronic voting? At a minimum, the webmaster, which would automatically cancel a secret vote.

WendyM5
Posts: 1,486

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 04/19/2024 2:49 PM
Wendy, do you know why so expensive? Thanks.

because HOA's are routinely over charged due to apathy is the honest answer. I can set it up in 45 minutes. If I ask my 150+ Neighbors to do it no one will volunteer so normal board member just says screw it I'll pay $600 to the company and they can set it up for me.

vis ta vie

ElleN
Posts: 4,405

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 04/19/2024 8:16 AM
California is considering a bill to allow electronic voting.

California is considering a bill to allow conduct of HOA/COA elections by "electronic secret ballot."

Currently the proposed law would require HOAs/COAs to simultaneously permit voting by "written secret ballot."

It seems to me that both methods (electronic and written) present challenges when it comes to preserving secrecy and ensuring owner-witnesses are satisfied that the election was not fixed. I would not say one method is either worse or better than the other.

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

What characteristics of Cali's current HOA secret ballot process do you feel threaten secrecy, Elle? Or, anyone else?

What aspect, Elle, of Owners witnessing the tabulation of ballots --as they may currently--might cause such witnesses to think that the action was "fixed?"

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

Darn-- replace "action" with election.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

A webmaster could easily change the vote count.

WendyM5
Posts: 1,486

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 05/03/2024 1:49 PM
A webmaster could easily change the vote count.

depends on what software is used. is one is using google forms yes then votes can be deleted. but if one is using election buddy then no.

vis ta vie

DeanJ
Posts: 1,789

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/19/2024 2:29 PM
I used a service that was about $30 per vote and took about 1 hour to set up.
we went from getting less than 5 people showing up at the annual meeting to 60 people voting which is about 40% of the community.
We mailed out paper ballots AND gave the link to the online voting which we ran for about 2 months. No one turned in a paper ballot. We did not encourage that, but NC law requires it or electornic opt in and it only costs about $2.50 per letter sent.
1st week we got about 20% of the people to vote. Send out an email to encourage votes a few weeks latter and got another 15% and finally got another 5% the last few days.

Helps to have money issues on the ballot. Like increasing dues.

Only problem is if you farm it out it gets to be very expensive like $600 per vote and to keep the system fair it really shoudl be famred out.

If you have a requirement that the election be held at the annual meeting with a quorum requirement, you still need members in chairs or proxies allow the board to hold the election.

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

In California, an election must be conducted by an Inspector of Elections, and it can be done entirely by mail except for the ballot count. How can members observe a count of electronic ballots? How does a recount happen with electronic votes? How does a member review the election materials after an election? How many people have access to the website where voting occurs? How does the Inspector turn over all the election materials after one year as required?

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

I'll add that the board chooses the inspector of elections. There is no independent means for a member to review the election materials.

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

What are you calling "election materials, Terri? As you know, in Calif. owners view certain "election materials" about a month before they're sent out. what does h you hOA'a Election rules say about this, Terri?

Yes, the Board approves the 1 or 3 inspectors of election at an Open meeting of the Board well before the election. My HOA uses seasoned owners with no connection to candidates. There are firms that provide this service, but I don't know how nay HOA can tell the good ones from those that aren't. Maybe someone can clarify.

I, too, was hoping to see answers to similar question from those who've used electronic coin.

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

Enhanced association records as defined below that members are allowed to inspect.
Civil Code sec 5200 c) “Association election materials” means returned ballots, signed voter envelopes, the voter list of names, parcel numbers, and voters to whom ballots were to be sent, proxies, and the candidate registration list. Signed voter envelopes may be inspected but may not be copied. An association shall maintain association election materials for one year after the date of the election.

Also for a recount the inspector is supposed to produce the ballots.

KerryL1
Posts: 14,519

Posted:

ah, yes, of course. If my HOA had an outside firm administer the election, I'd urge the Board to have the IoE return all of those materials to the HOA within a few days following the election. As official records of the HOA, imo, they should be kept by any other entity. I really don't know how reliable these firms are and if they all stay in business for the one year following the election, i.e., the period that these materials must be retained.

Since our IoEs are owners, the records always are with our PM on our premises.

But, right, how would electronic ballots be inspected after the election?

TerriS6
Posts: 3,265

Posted:

On May 2, AB2159 was amended to require the option of e-voting whether or not the governing documents allow it.

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