The Lawyers Got Us

hi,

Everyone on this forum has given me good advice and one of them is Avoid Litigation. So we have these crummy condo docs that needs deciphering that in turns causes confusions which the lawyers can't figure out and people get bent out of shape and the litigation happens. Who wins the but only the lawyers though all the fees they charge on the case.

The team here has helped me wade through the complicated verbiage on the condo docs. Over time all of you have a lot rules, regulations from various states, condo docs, local ordinances and state law under your belt for experience. You all are basically "lawyers". I am bit saddened that there is disagreement amongst all of you from a recent thread. This discussion forum needs to have some type of mechanism where we can internally resolve our own issues. I am a member of different forums where nothing else gets heated like it does on this forum. It's the nature of looking at words and the implication of it in a legal sense. Well the lawyers got us again!

How do we as a group self regulate ourselves and come up with a process that we don't have to go through this.

Our posting rules are basic general good rules that works for most forums but its inadequate for legal based forum like this one.

So person (A) state something.
Person (B) does not believe it is true.

Does person (A) need to support their statement? You can't force a person into something. It would be nice that person (A) does that but if they don't then does person (B) then refute that with information? Does this sound similar? It should because if I am not mistaken this process is what happens in the court system. That is evidence given a rebuttal etc a cross-examination etc. I don't think the forum should be a court case. I am writing out loud here and I don't have any answers but I do wish we can all try to get some ideas out there so we can move forward in helping others and minimize our disagreements. The court system also does not like litigation and supports ADR. My home state has good rules for that but all of your experts know a IDR process heads off things easier. We need to find some mechanism that is similar where we get the steam lowered on this pressure cooker forum.

I have a vested interest in this forum because simply you saved me litigation and future litigation and I wished I found this site earlier.

Peace

Gregory

Gregory, exchanges may not be pleasant sometimes but the arguments can shred problems to minute detail that really help define our issues so we know how to solve them. When an argument turns humorous, even better.

Ok so everyone is fine with current setup. Keep discussing until something is figured out. Anything really objectionable then there is the moderator of last resort. Got it.

Well, I can only speak for myself. First, I don’t think this is a “legal based” forum – although there are comments on what sections of documents mean or don’t mean, or what a state’s HOA laws say (or not), I always caution people that the vast majority of us ARE NOT attorneys, and what’s true in your state may not be true in mine, or vice versa. The issue might not even be addressed in anyone’s statute or documents, and so you may have to rely on good old fashioned common sense, along with some creativity. Thinking outside the box is a good thing!

As for the legalese, even if a poster is on target with his/her response (folks like ElleN are pretty good at that), that shouldn’t stop the person asking the question from following up with an attorney. If the issue winds up in court, it may sound really strange to say “well, your Honor, I did X because I asked a question on the internet and I was told to do Y or Z.” Contrary to what some think, not everything posted on the internet or (especially) social media is true.

Another thing to remember is that these days, people are more bitter and mean, so they let loose with diarrhea of the mouth online because there aren’t a ton of filters, moderators, etc., to stop them. If they were to spew this crap in person, they’d risk a major beatdown. People are also very emotional about their houses – they spent lots of time and money on them, and so anyone would feel some kind of way when you’re trying to get more information on the budget or clarification on a CCR and the response is either crickets or you’re told to kick rocks, pay your assessment and shut the hell up.

The most moderators can do is to delete comments that are clearly racist, sexist, ageist and so on. As for the rest, remember none of us know each other personally, so it’s easier and faster to ignore a comment you think is ridiculous rather than ramp up your blood pressure towards people you don’t even know. I’ve said I don’t live in other communities, so people are free to accept some, none or all my comments or advice – I won’t know either way and it won’t make a difference to me.

That said, I try to stick to the issue at hand and not get personal – I don’t know you. That also means I will ask tough questions – not to hurt people’s feelings, but if a no BS approach is necessary, that’s what I’ll do. I admit I can be testy from time to time, but I’m probably not to everyone’s taste, nor am I here to coddle anyone. Having spent over 20 years in my community, 10 on the board, 5 of those as treasurer, I know there are dozens of views on an issue and the answer is never one thing or another. This isn’t an amen corner.

Based on my experience, and I’m only one person, I hope through my responses I can suggest approaches that will keep people out of court. Like you, I agree litigation can be a drag, so it’s good to try everything else before you take that step – and if you do, you may as well win because you’ve proven your case up and down.

I’m glad you’ve found the forum useful – I know I’ve learned a lot and continue to do so, although I stepped down from my board 10 years ago. Thanks for posting!

An item you need to consider is members are from a wide number of states with different laws and associations with different declarations. None of us know what a specific association’s documents include and what every state’s laws require.

KerryL1, if you want more civility, then I advise you to cease badgering and deriding me for refusing to answer your questions. I have my reasons for not wanting to engage in a dialogue with you.

As a president of a relatively small HOA and casual observer of this forum, I watch here occassionally for interesting HOA issues and see how others deal with them.

But there are a FEW of you who so quickly take to attacking each other, getting overly defensive, accusing the others of not knowing what they are talking about, etc. It absolutely ruins this place for me. At some point it doesn't even matter who is right or wrong, who started it, who stole the other's pencil, cut in front of them in the lunch line. It always goes the same. I don't read every thread here to know the ongoing interpersonal complexities between some of you... and I honestly don't care. And maybe you think it is funny or interesting. (Spoiler alert: It isn't.) What I find funny and interesting is how many times someone posts a question or thought and the same group goes on and on and on for days speculating, counter speculating, accusing, and nitpicking each other's interpretation, or why their perspective is invalid, while the original poster has long left never to return.

And thank you to the preceding replies for illustrating this point perfectly. I don't know any of you. I don't know who called who, what. I don't care to dig back through each word to see what might have set someone off. All I see now is some people attacking each other and turning a thread into something about THEM.

I think the best advice for this would have come from a kindergarten teacher: I don't care who started it, BOTH of you knock it off.

To the original question: I don't believe this community can self regulate because too many people at the core of it are part of the problem. I think the forum software is too limited. I should be able to hit "Ignore" on certain people or "report" a post. A moderator should then warn or ban them for some period of time. Maybe that happens... it doesn't seem to.

So, that's my honest take here. I'm glad you posed this question Gregory. It needed asked.

Very fair question, Terri.

How should you respond to a personal attack? ... Either personally via direct message, or notify the moderator. Then either the "attacker" will retract their statement, or the moderator, if agreeing the attack was out of line, would remove the post and warn the offender.

At least that is how it should work in a community that cares about maintaining civility above general activity.

In absence of the above, it just turns into two people bickering in front of the rest of the community.

Thank you. I don't think we have direct message here. In fact, I didn't think there was a moderator.

And that is why I do not use my real name or a real email address. I can also block people who try to address me offline. Once you invade someones personal space the real law can step in be it criminal or judicial.

Others here most likely do the same with a junk email box setup to filter the insane.

I would add, it takes two to fight.

Someone has to be the better person and simply let it go.


I know, from communicating with them, that the individuals who moderate this forum do so as a collateral duty.

Self regulating worked well in the past. It is not as effective today.

Banning has occurred in the past.

Fact: I am posting in this thread in an attempt to negotiate a "truce," by stating how I feel. (I know; kum-bay-ah yada. But whatever.) Granted this is one of a guzillion internet "sandboxes." It is also a sandbox that does offer helpful advice via crowd sourced problem solving, IMO.

My position is that if someone declines to respond to a question, then instantly, the someone should be left alone. Or at a minimum, in my opinion, responding with derision and badgering (to the person who does not wish to respond) is not approriate, to say the least.

One of my biggest reasons for declining to respond to certain (not all) people's questions is my concern about derailment of a thread. Another reason is I simply cannot parse what some posters here are saying. I do not have a magic wand to make someone's posts more readable. Call it my fault if you want.

I understand if you think every poster here makes sense all the time. But this is not my experience.

If your and K's position is the very act of declining to respond to a question is insulting, then I think this is the problem. I do not assert this as fact. I am saying this is how I see it.

I would be interested in how you see it. I hope to stay civil. I hope this is your aim as well. If K and you respond to my declining to respond to a question as you did in the ETR thread, then round and round we will likely go. I hope you might maybe possibly agree that's not good.