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GlenM2 (Florida)
Posts: 2
Posted:
I live in a Condo Townhouse community in Fl, about 15 months ago the HOA had the roads and parking lots sealed. When this was accomplished all six of the Disabled Parking Spaces in the Townhomes Guest Parking were discontinued. I went to townhouse board meeting and was told by the president to bring this subject to the Master Board Meeting which I did at that time I was told to take it back to the townhouse board. The President of both boards is the same person. This is Disable parking in the Guest Parking lots, The Guest parking lots with Disabled parking were put in by the builder 7 years ago. There was not a vote to remove them or was the owners ever notified that they were being removed. I have requested documentation or any paperwork regarding the discontinuing of Disable parking with no results. The condos have Disable parking, along with the clubhouse.

Any help would be appreciated

GlenM2

MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
I'm not sure what you mean by 'disable' spaces. Do you mean "Handicapped" spaces, designated as such by the pavement logo and the standard blue sign?

Although a single family community or fee simple attached townhome community may not be subject to 'reasonable accomodation', ADA and Fair Housing laws, Condo's fall into a catagory where (IMO) they must provide handicapped parking if a disabled owner makes the request.

I have a disabled tenant in an investment property which is a condo, and they PM created a handicapped space for him and two other individuals in the building. It seems to be on a case by case basis and they just don't put them in unless someone submits a request for a disable resident.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:
Glen,
Look up the "Americans with Disabilities Act". The requirements are there.
ShawnaF (Colorado)
Posts: 84
Posted:
I have experience in this only because of developing properties. When the developer put in the parking lot, the County/City or whatever jurisdiction would have required them to put in so many spaces designated and reserved for this purpose - and sometimes even telling them where they will go. Removing them (even on private property) is not something that is allowed, they should have been repainted and marked after sealing. You can get them put back in by a quick call to the City or County - whichever is applicable to you - and inform them of what has happened. They will handle it from there and usually really quickly.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Shawn - If the HOA had the Roads and parking lots sealed as indicated in the OP's original posting, then these are common areas (more likely) owned by the HOA.
GeraldT4
Posts: 1,022
Posted:
Morning MikeS1 and All - The Americans with Disabilities Act Accessibility Guidelines(ADAAG)require the following number of handicapped spaces in parking areas:

Total # of Spaces 1-25 Required # of spaces 1
Total # of Spaces 26-50 Required # of spaces 2
Total # of Spaces 51-75 Required # of spaces 3
Total # of Spaces 76-100 Required # of spaces 4
Total # of Spaces 101-150 Required # of spaces 5
Total # of Spaces 151-200 Required # of spaces 6
Total # of Spaces 201-300 Required # of spaces 7
Total # of Spaces 301-400 Required # of spaces 8
Total # of Spaces 401-500 Required # of spaces 9
Total # of Spaces 501-1,000 Required # of spaces 10
Over 1,000 Required # of spaces 20+1 for each 100 over 1,000

However, the ADAAG defaults or refers to Title II of the 1964 Civil Rights Act which outlawed discrimination in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; but exempted private clubs without defining the term "private".

I think therein lies the possibility for an interpretation that an association is considered a "private club".

Thoughts, any sightings of other laws???
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Without knowing the specific answer, and guessing that only the local government or an attorney can give you specific help, here are some thoughts:

The developer would have been required to put in handicap parking spaces because during the sale of the project, the model and possibly other areas were "open to the public" and would fall under the ADA requirements.

Community associations are not subject to the entire ADA. These usually kick in if major renovations are being made to certain common areas and have more to do with curb cuts, ramps at clubhouses etc. Association's are under the Fair Housing Act (FHA) which requires the association to make reasonable accomodation for residents with certain health or other issues. Under this an owner could request a handicap parking space closer to their unit, put up a wheelchair ramp outside their unit, and so on.

My guess would be that the association was not required to maintain handicap parking parking spaces after the developer left, however, the renovation to the parking area may have triggered some ADA requirements - only your local government can confirm that.

Joe

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LaverneB (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Glen, any parking area in the state of Florida has to have handicap parking.Who ever black topped will do it and should have.
LaverneB (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Glen, any parking area in the state of Florida has to have handicap parking.Who ever black topped will do it and should have.
ShawnaF (Colorado)
Posts: 84
Posted:
Thanks - and yes, I know it's common area as well, but absolutely the approved plans with allowances for ADA parking is applicable on private property as well. As a developer, I've seen the fight many times, if you have any number of parking spaces, you're going to see the requirement before build-out and it gets stringently checked.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Said it before, will say it again. The ADA does not govern most HOA's. HOA's do NOT have to follow the ADA laws. Most HOA's can flip the bird at the ADA laws. The ADA does not apply.

The ADA covers 4 basic areas, and the scope of those areas is very specific.

Title I - Employment. This title regulates "COVERED ENTITIES" in regards to employment, which generally refer to an employment agency, labor organization, or joint labor-management committee, and is generally an employer engaged in interstate commerce and having 15 or more workers.

Unless your HOA employs more than 15 people in an interstate commercial enterprise, don't worry.

Title II - Public Services (and public transportation. This covers public agencies (which an HOA is not) and public transportation by public entities. Unless your HOA is running a bus service, you are clean.

Title III - Public Accommodations (and Commercial Facilities). This only applies to HOAs that have public accomodations, that is, areas open for use by anyone walking in from the street. Since the whole idea of an HOA tends to be exclusivity, most HOA's don't allow everyone to use their facilities, only MEMBERS and GUESTS. Thus, private, not public.

Title IV - Telecommunications. Applies only to telecommunications companies. Unless your HOA is a telecommunications company, you are free and clear here.

Bottom line, most HOA's can tell ADA lawyers and ADA chest bangers to take a long walk off a short pier. And perhaps advise them to actually READ the laws they tout so much, instead of just believing the hype.
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Let's let the experts deal with it:

"IN 1992, CONGRESS PASSED THE AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT ("ADA")--a sweeping series of laws to prohibit discrimination against persons with disabilities. The ADA mandates accommodations for persons with disabilities. Under the Act, public places, such as restaurants or stores, must be accessible to disabled persons. For community associations, these "public accommodations" would include any service or facility open to the general public, such as a pool or clubhouse. The Act also applies to mixed-use communities or associations with more than 15 employees.
Most community associations are not subject to the ADA, since they are not considered a public accommodation under Title III of the Act. But for those associations that do comply, ADA challenges could increase in the future. Baby boomers are aging, and they'll increasingly age in place. They'll expect accommodations such as large print governing documents and wheelchair access to meetings. They may use the ADA to satisfy those needs. Here are 10 things you should know to respond to the ADA and other laws relating to persons with disabilities:

1 The ADA May Not Apply. As mentioned most community associations are not subject to the ADA (see introduction). However, most associations are subject to the Fair Housing Amendments Act and other state laws that also prohibit discrimination.

The primary distinction between the ADA and other federal and state acts is that the association bears the costs of modifying a building or common area. Under other such laws, associations must allow modifications to accommodate a disability, but such modifications would be the owner's expense, not the association's.

If an owners asks to modify a common area, to obtain a handicapped parking space, to have a sign language interpreter at the annual meeting, or makes any other request to accommodate a disability, the association should consult with legal counsel to determine the scope and applicability of the ADA and other laws.

2 Improvements Can Trigger ADA Requirements. If the associations decides to renovate the clubhouse, modify the parking area, or add a tennis court, local government planning agencies may require the association to perform "path of travel" modifications from the street to portions of the common area. For example, if the association modifies the parking area, the local building department may require the board to add handicapped parking spaces."

and:

"The Community Association Network has a Daily News weblog feed that reports on news relating to community associations. Today, it referenced a Sun-Sentinel story about two disabled people suing their association for having an inaccessible clubhouse. The South Florida newspaper reported that John Garon and Vatrice Rivera, who use wheelchairs, claim that they are unable to properly use the parking lot, bathrooms and water fountains in their community's clubhouse. They have filed suit claiming that because the clubhouse is open to the public for political debates and some entertainment, the building must comply with the federal Americans with Disabilities Act ("ADA").

There are two federal laws that may impose disability access requirements on community associations. The Federal Fair Housing Act and the ADA. The Federal Fair Housing Act is intended to apply to residential situations while the ADA is intended to apply to most commercial operations open to the public (sometimes referred to as public accommodations). The main difference between the two Acts is that those covered by the ADA are required to make the facilities of the public accommodations accessible to the disabled if it is readily achievable while the Fair Housing Act requires the housing provider to permit a disabled individual to make reasonable modifications to the project at the disabled individual's expense. In other words, whether the ADA or the Federal Fair Housing Act applies to a project is important because it determines who pays for the cost of eliminating barriers to the disabled.

If a condominium or planned community is purely residential, the ADA does not apply. However, if the condominium or planned community contains commercial uses, the Americans with Disabilities may apply at least to the extent that the commercial uses fall within the ADA and the common area is open to the customers of the commercial establishment. In the case of a residential project that opens its amenities to the general public, the analysis is a little more involved. If the amenity is open only to the residents and their guests, the ADA does not apply. Federal Regulations (28 CFR ยง 36.102(e)) states that the ADA does not apply to private clubs, but will apply to the facilities of a private club that is made available to customers of a public accommodation. Appendix B to the Federal Regulations states that:

An entity that is not in and of itself a public accommodation, such as a trade association or performing artist, may become a public accommodation when it leases space for a conference or performance at a hotel, convention center, or stadium. For an entity to become a public accommodation when it is the lessee of space, however, the Department believes that consideration in some form must be given. Thus, a Boy Scout troop that accepts donated space does not become a public accommodation because the troop has not "leased'' space, as required by the ADA.
Therefore, a factor in the analysis is whether the association charged for the use of the premises. Even if an association does not charge for the use of its amenities, it may wish to limit access to residents and their guests to avoid a claim that they must undertake modifications to the amenities to comply with the ADA."

Joe


Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

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DavidC17 (Florida)
Posts: 1
Posted:
Did you find the information that you needed concerning the removal of the disabled parking spaces?
GlenM2 (Florida)
Posts: 2
Posted:
No, I didn't but my HOA did finally provide my wife with a disabled parking space accross the street. They will not allow me to enlarge my driveway as it is a common area.
BobS10 (Connecticut)
Posts: 39
Posted:
Every time I come on this site, which is every day by the way, I'm amazed by how much I didnt know.
There is just so much to know being on a Condo Board, I had no idea, but at least now I know where to learn!

Thanks everyone for giving us this great forum!
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Joe - There must be more to this than we think. We went through this when one of our residents (who owned a Garage townhome with a driveway), wanted us to convert one of the open visitor spaces to a Handicap spot. After I did my research and our HOA attorney responded to the resident request, it was my understanding that our townhome community was not subject to ADA laws, nor were they subject to the concept of "reasonable accomodation". These townhomes are fee simple, single family attached style homes (NOT CONDO). The attorney's letter to the resident detailed the fact that we were not subject to ADA laws or reasonable accomodation, especially since the best accomodation for parking the resident's vehicles were his own garage and his own driveway; as compared to having a visitor space that was located 180ft away from his home. The whole idea was simply a ploy on the part of the resident, so that they wouldn' have to switch cars, if one was parked in the garage and they wanted to take that vehicle and not the one in the driveway. The attorney went on to explain to the Board that if we were a Condominium, that we WOULD be subject to REASONABLE ACCOMODATION and we would have to provide a handicapp space for the resident. This seems to follow suit, since we have a condo investment property nearby with a tenant that is handicapped and the association had no problem accocomodating him with a space marked by pavement logo and Handicap sign. Then several other older residents followed suit, so we have quite a few handicapped parking spaces and I've noticed that other condominiums in this area are doing the same thing. I'm really surprised that the OP's Board is not maintaining the handicap spaces, unless perhaps there are no residents that are handicapped that live in the building.

What are your thoughts on this?
JosephW (Michigan)
Posts: 882
Posted:
Read number 11 of the new HUD release and see what you think.

http://www.communityassociations.net/articles/reasonable_modifications_mar08.pdf

Joe

Joseph West
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Community Associations Network, LLC
www.CommunityAssociations.net

*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Joe - This is a real BrainTeaser. There are two areas here to consider.. ADA laws and Fair Housing. Then there is reasonable accomodation and reasonable modification, which I think get confused. Then there are two different rules that also apply depending on when the buiding was built (See April 1991 reference).

It was explained in a written opionion by our very proficient HOA attorney, that our resident's request for a handicap space would only be valid under the Reasonable Accomodation provision, if they were residing in a Multi-Family Dwelling (4 or more units per building) and this would apply if the building was Condo and/or an Apartment. Since our townhouse are attached fee simple, the Fair Housing concept was not applicable. Here in Brian's case, we have a very unique situation where all the townhomes (attached)are condo. In most cases, I can visualize that there would usually be more than 4 units per building, so IMO, I really do believe that you really can't say that this is Private and that Reasonable Accomodation doesn't apply here. Based on this, and what I see here in our area as standard practice, I would think that if the OP approached the Board and asked them for a handicap space that they would have to do so that the Board's expense.

MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Joe - This is a real BrainTeaser. There are two areas here to consider.. ADA laws and Fair Housing. Then there is reasonable accomodation and reasonable modification, which I think get confused. Then there are two different rules that also apply depending on when the buiding was built (See April 1991 reference).

It was explained in a written opionion by our very proficient HOA attorney, that our resident's request for a handicap space would only be valid under the Reasonable Accomodation provision, if they were residing in a Multi-Family Dwelling (4 or more units per building) and this would apply if the building was Condo and/or an Apartment. Since our townhouse are attached fee simple, the Fair Housing concept was not applicable. Here in Brian's case, we have a very unique situation where all the townhomes (attached)are condo. In most cases, I can visualize that there would usually be more than 4 units per building, so IMO, I really do believe that you really can't say that this is Private and that Reasonable Accomodation doesn't apply here. Based on this, and what I see here in our area as standard practice, I would think that if the OP approached the Board and asked them for a handicap space that they would have to do so that the Board's expense.

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