Need Advice - Pet & Fenced Patio

Hello, I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to proceed with my homeowner's board. I have been an owner of my home for approx 5 years in this association, and they are just now raising this issue with me (which is probably because of a new HOA President).

When I bought my home I purchased it because I needed a place where I could put in a dog door with a fenced in patio, so that my dog could use the restroom while I was away for long hours. I built the fence per association guidelines...and when I built it the old president even came over & I told her why I was building the fence. Now I am getting notice that I am in violation of the following bylaw:

“No animal may be leashed or confined to any stationary object on or in the Common Area nor may any animal be left unattended in any patio. Pets me be chained in the back patio area; however, the chain must not exceed 2 feet past the concrete patio.”

When I asked them to consider an ammendment to the rule because it reads as though there would be a difference between fenced & open patios, they told me that there was no difference because "said animal is not considered 100% contained in the patio and there is the possibility that it could escape if left unsupervised."

I'm now at a loss as to my next step. I do have a dog door & my dog uses it...but when I am home he is fully within my sight on the patio due to the layout of my home. I have lived here for 5 years & do not understand why he should not be allowed out on my patio when I am gone (the complaint has nothing to do with his barking, nor has he ever had a barking complaint...and he has NEVER gotten loose). What do you recommend I do? This seems very unfair.

yes, this is a townhouse...patio is one of those little 5x8 footers

They keep saying "according to the rules and regulations"....

The thing I figure is that

1 - It can't be affecting just me. My association has about 150 units, and there are a ton of dog owners. Whether or not people actually have pet doors I know for a fact that people slide open their patio doors and let their dogs out to use the restroom (without standing out their with them). I have a neighbor directly behind me who does it all the time with 2 pugs.

2 - I thought I read somewhere that even if a board must enforce a rule, they cannot SELECTIVELY enforce it (otherwise it's discrimination). Meaning that wouldn't they have to prove that they are likewise monitoring ALL of the people who have dogs before they would be able to fine me? Furthermore, wouldn't they have to be able to actually prove that I am not supervising my dog?

They told me this all came about by random inspection of the board. Not by a complaint of a neighbor.

AllisonO - Do other owners leave their dogs outside unattended for hours on end like you do? The burden of proof of discriminatory action is upon you, not the Board. Their random inspection would easily catch your action because your pet is outside for hours on end unattended, rather than the random activity of an owner letting their dog out. Two or more wrongs don't make a right. It's a lot easier to comply with the rules and regs. than wage a war with your association of your non-compliance.

The Dog Whisperer, Cesar, would have a field day with your training methods. I am a pet lover, believe me. But there's absolutely no reason for your pet to be left outside unattended to use the restroom due to your long hours. Much of housebreaking a pet is not only training the pet but training the owner. The proper way to potty train a pet when the owner is away is to purchase a cage and section it off in bigger portions as the dog gets bigger. The cage shouldn't be too big or too small. A 5 x 8 patio space is way too big.

If you bring your pet back inside your house now, you are probably going to have to train your pet because of bad habits.

And the issue isn't that my dog isn't potty-trained...he is....but it's that I am a student on top of working 40+ hours a week. So there are days when I am not able to get home to let my dog out within a "healthy" time frame.

He can hold it for up to 12 hours...and beyond I'm sure....but when I'm gone from 5am to 10pm....that's just not healthy, and like I said, the reason I bought a house with a yard where he could urinate.

AND, to clarify...my dog is not left outside for hours on end. He goes out to do his business then comes back inside. That's it.

Whether I'm home or not, his actions aren't different. He's an inside dog - he prefers the indoors.

and to clarify...re-read the posts GERALD...you will see the word "nasty" never came out of my mouth.

I am just trying to get a fair shake, not your take on my dog's training.

Allison,

Very, very good attitude towards what you just heard and read.

If you do not want to single out other neighbors and point fingers at them for being in violation, that is really the best and most friendly way to handle this. Let it go and work in other ways to remedy the situation.

You can get a petition signed by a large number of the dog owners, requesting the Board to adopt some other form of a restriction, to make it easier to comply with. They are required to address the petition. But you may not like their responses.

And worst case scenerio is to have to make some changes? Yes, they must give you some considerate time to adapt to the rule. If it goes that way, plead your case nicely But most important--

DO NOT POSTURE YOURSELF FOR A FIGHT!!! THAT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND WON'T WORK. Good luck to you. (community living, ain't it a pain sometimes?)

Joseph,

Thanks. That's what I had originally thought as well - I figured that my dog must be a nuisance when I am gone without my knowledge....but when I asked them about it, they told me the only reason they want to enforce it is the whole "possibility of getting loose" thing. If the dog door itself was an issue, you would think they would mention it directly without the focus being on my dog...or even as a separate violation?

The rule doesn't differentiate between the length of time a dog is to be unattended, so I don't see how they can refer to that rule. If need be, I will cite my neighbor as an example of that rule...hopefully without having to give up his unit number as I am not in the business of causing trouble for others.

So, I guess my only option from what I am reading is to get my fellow owners together via petition or some other means to get a vote going for a possible rule change to allow this.

Thanks to everyone who gave me feedback on the HOA rules...I am not asking for feedback on how to train my border collie, (Gerald), who is probably smarter than you.

-A

AllisonO - LOL. Of course you don't need my feedback because you refuse to see that your behavior is part of the problem that you seek to overcome. I own a townhouse myself, filled with rules and regulations that, like yours prohibit all kinds of things. So your claim that I have an attitude towards anyone else who owns a townhome is entirely inaccurate. I had a feeling you'd take the approach you have once you heard something you didn't like. I had a strong feeling your inability or ability to see your situation through someone else's eyes would be evidenced. You should not be surprised from a response that does not jive with your desire to bend the rules and is not swayed by the love of a pet or sympathy for your school and work situation.

Gerald - More unnecessary insults - In reading the OP's comment about pet being smarter than you; I must say again that this is just more proof that this site is gradually going to the dogs...or whiners that should know what the rules are. Don't get me wrong, I love this site, but it's getting diluted . It seems that we get nothing but complaints for owners that really aren't involved with the Board or any committees. If they were involved, they would know that an outside patio with a condo th, is a limited common element that is actually owned by the COA, but it's designed for the unit owner's exclusive use. They would also know they probably should not be modifying the exterior door without permission of the HOA, and they would be also know that even if the previous Board wasn't proficient when it came to enforcing the rules, there's no grandfather provision here per se. Even if a previous board did not enforce the rule, it doesnt mean that the current board cannot enforce this rule. Again I hear the "I'm being single out" cry and it pains me. The OP may not know it, but Board may be dealing with the other violators but the board does not make this all public. The other violators may be knee deep in corrective action or "Due Process" as well. I think that this site was originally designed for folks that are involved in running an HOA, so that they can share information and while I know that others will disagree with me on this issue, I have to say that this posting serves very little purpose other than to reinforce my point here. We get enough insults from our own residents, so we really shouldn't have to get it here too.

Tks. Donna - I know that we all learn a little from the resident postings such as this, but it's not why I signed up.

I know this board was designed for board members to have a place to discuss issues or problems that they faced and its been great. But I also know that owners with questions have almost nowhere to go on the internet to get any sort of reasonable answer to their questions, even if they are root cause of the problems. Anybody can choose to respond or not respond to any question, so the fact that an owner posts a question (or even a rant) shouldn't cause anybody any consternation.

I would hope that if someone chooses to respond to their question its with a reasonable answer. The posters' other choice in discussion boards would respond with statements like "all HOA's are evil"; "board members are petty dictators"; "managers and attorneys are simply stealing your money" etc, which does nothing to solve the problem and probably only intensifies the questioners' dissatisfaction with the process.

Mybe HOATalk can split the board - one each for Board members and owners - there's a great need for open discussion for both groups.

Joe

DonnaS & Joe - The opinions and statements on this website do not render any implementation that is binding, and therefore do not equate to a characterization of a Board in the association related use of the function. I believe the current format permits a co-mingling of thought that all can benefit from. If some don't agree with a post, they can simply move on to the next.

MikeS1 - I agree the insult was inappropriate. But I will say this much, I knew Allison would insult me one way or the other, and I posted accepting that risk. I preempted some of it by saying I love pets. Owners get extremely defensive when it comes to their pets, and since pets can be domesticated it's the owners that often need to be trained. Training an owner is a much more difficult task, especially when they don't appreciate the rules are written to protect them from themselves.

Thank You HOATALK.

It is also up to us posters to be more selective in responding to some of these people who we know from word one, are looking for validation to their reactions and problems with their Boards. It is not up to us to bail them out.

hoatalk: There is always something to learn, even from those who post for the wrong reasons....

All posters just have to be more diligent and not feed into the junk that comes with the good stuff! We don't want a site which excludes anyone; or want those who only agree with us. Such is life, and we are all in the HOA learning curve. We just need to be vigilant and a little more selective.

Hi AnnaD2 -The access door is to a patio that is fenced, so the boarder collie is the only thing that can get out or in. Unless of course the owner decides to crawl through the doggy door, in which case may explain a lot to this post.

AnnaD2 - Never underestimate the cunning nature of wild animals, especially those from New Jersey!! Yes, I see what you are saying. Raccoons could most likely find their way inside the unit, they are very good at getting inside. Since AllisonO is no longer on this site (at least we think so) she can't answer as to the construction of her fence. The whole scenario of a doggy door and a fenced in patio that are both non-approved modifications from original spec leaves me baffled. Now imagine the precedent that would be set if AllisonO's modifications were approved. That concept seems to have escaped AllisonO. Could you imagine a real estate agent walking with the client in back of each townhouse, saying...oh and yes, you too could enjoy sitting on your patio and sharing the space with each owner's caged animal for hours on end. We here at Longview Pines thing it's just great to let our pets enjoy the great (paved) outdoors to do their duty. Hopefully your unit is upwind.