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BillB17 (South Carolina)
Posts: 92
Posted:
I am sure this is not an issue exclusive to our HOA. We are a single family HOA in SC with 422 lot owners (members). Our documents require 2/3 vote of the total votes in the Association (281votes) to pass any Amendment to our Declaration or By Laws. Proposed amendments are voted on along with our BOD election at our annual membership meeting. The notice of meeting includes a proxy/ballot for members to cast their votes on the BOD election and the proposed amendments. The issue is that we never get a sufficient number of ballots returned to pass an amendment. Over the past several years the highest number of ballots returned was 221, well short of the 281 required.

All of the amendments proposed were thoughtful and would improve our Association operation but could never pass due to an apathetic membership failing to participate in the process. I am considering offering an amendment to change our present requirements - maybe a majority of the total votes in the Association - maybe 75% of the total votes cast.

Amending HOA documents is a serious matter and should require a reasonable threshold of votes in order to pass. I am of the opinion that the votes of those members who participate should bear strong consideration in deciding an amendment (if you don't vote, don't complain!!). Yet, the threshold of votes required to pass should be high.

Any experience in this type of issue will be greatly appreciated.

And yes, I realize that passing this amendment will still require the 281 votes that we have never gotten before!!
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We're dealing with this problem right now.

The board is taking another whack at amending a restriction that we tried to amend some years ago but failed to. The amendment received a majority of yes votes, but not the super-majority of 75% that we need. The board now wants to try again, this time with a complete ban on the activity and not just a restriction. And the demographics of the community have changed, so it's very unlikely we would even get a simple majority to vote in favor of the mild restriction from years ago, never mind a complete ban.

This is nuts, right? The board's solution to is attempt another amendment. Right now our CC&Rs require unanimous approval of certain amendments, one of which is a change to the fundamental purpose of the condominium property. This is a big deal. Among other things, it would make it easier for an investment group to take over the community and convert it entirely to rentals - thus the second amendment would make us a more attractive target for these folks.

The board is trying to lower the percentage needed to change the condominium's fundamental purpose to 75%, on the theory that the complete ban (the first amendment) will now be approved by the membership - despite evidence that strongly suggests that this will not happen unless the membership loses their collective minds.

This is nuts, right?

As for your issues, I agree that it can be frustrating when amendments that you believe are in the best interests of the association can't be approved.

To play devil's advocate, I'll note that the people who draft the CC&Rs usually have had years of experience that let them judge how to create a workable corporation. They also know where the landmines and quicksand are lurking. The average homeowner has no clue. In addition, no two board members will define "in the best interests of the association" exactly the same way. So to some extent the association can be at the mercy of a board of charismatic leaders or a board that's persuasive but doesn't know squat.

So the drafters of the CC&Rs try to balance giving owners the right to make their own decisions vs. protecting them from their own ignorance. Ignorance can be expensively painful in this context and it will affect the entire community, some of whom didn't agree to whatever the change was and wouldn't have bought their homes if they knew this was coming.

In short, I don't think there is a magic percentage that's going to work. Boards come and go. Community demographics change. Frustrating, but I don't think there's a good solution to this problem.

I'll give you one hint, though, based on experience. If you want to encourage voting, it can help if you're trying to pass more than one amendment at the same time, one of which is something that the community as a whole really, really wants. You'll need to have a good sense for what the membership is thinking to make this work.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Bill,

I'm expecting to face something similar. Due to a high quorum requirement, my Association has not had a quorum at the annual meeting in the past 20+ years.

We are drafting a whole new set of bylaws which, among other things, will correct the high quorum requirement.
However, we also need to meet the quorum requirement before we can vote for a new one.

Our Board chose to also include an amendment to the covenants to allow the board to raise assessments (right now it takes a membership vote).
We are hoping that any amendment addressing higher assessments will get the membership to participate.

We will also keep track of proxies and plan to go door to door as needed to ask if the member will attend and if not, please complete a proxy form while we wait.
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
A few years ago we needed to increase the monthly dues. We hadn't had a quorum in years. Our attorney advised us to use Reduced Quorum - Adjournment. We are in North Carolina.

It took 6 meetings and a lot of legwork to collect the votes, but we were successful in getting the dues increase passed. Something that really helped was that we changed the locks at the pool and owner's had to pick them up personally. Captive audience with a blank ballot available. Some one on one was all it took. Seemed no one wanted to vote no with me sitting right there.

We needed a 51% yes vote. We were at 65% rentals. It amazed us that we only collected 11 "no" votes. All from resident owners.

Resident owners who had more to lose voted against their own best interests. "I don't have the money" "I don't like the Landscaper". Investor's could cut and run much easier.

DioL (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
I am not on the board but am a homeowner in an HOA community of almost 250 units in California. I attend the meetings, vote, follow the regulations, pay my dues on time and pay attention. Since, I've been here for almost 5 years, our elections have failed to meet quorum, consequently, the board is the same. They don't answer questions, don't communicate effectively and they don't conduct the meetings (the PM does and he is arrogant, rude and mutes people in our zoom meetings) We now are in a predicament to purchase property insurance but it is unaffordable. The insurance problems started 2 years ago and we"ve had to pay an assessment for lesser insurance (but with a premium that was increased 800%.) The board wants to change our CC&R's so they do not have to purchase full insurance and can remove EQ insurance. If the CC&R's are not amended, we each will have to pay a $5600.00 assessment. Only 6% of our community attended the meeting in which this topic was discussed and no agenda was issued prior to the meeting. Few homeowners know this and the minutes will be received in 30 days. Our insurance needs to be effective May 1. To date, no ballot has been mailed and in the past, the last ballot took 1 week to be received. The election failed after 5 months. We barely reached 25% votes and needed 51%. The clock is ticking? What can I do as a homeowner? I have no confidence in this board to get this done and in record time.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Oh, wotta, mess, Diol. But please start a new thread & paste this entry on it.
DavidK34 (Washington)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Apathy in the membership works very well to reject any amendment to the governing documents. In our HOA, the CCR's require a super majority vote, but the Bylaws require only a majority vote of the membership present at the annual meeting. Because of the low bar, we find it quite easy to get bylaw amendments passed, and will often have one or two on the ballot each year. For CCR amendments, it is nearly impossible to get members or proxies present for a quorum much less getting an assenting vote on anything. I actually have become resigned to the political fact that it can't be done in our situation. In some regards, it is good that CCR's can't be passed without a super majority -- they represent a durable property right that gets enshrined in our property deeds. These rights really shouldn't be changed except with overwhelming community consensus. I must admit that I find it very restricting in your case with Bylaws not allowed to be amended except in this fashion. I would find that impossible to manage and quite untenable. I am hopeful that this post will receive many more replies because I'm curious about how others would deal with this situation.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
My last association was 65 homes, board members pretty much went door to door with the ballots to get the 2/3 membership votes.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
We are 51% for Bylaw changes and 2/3rds for Covenant changes. I feel these %'s are appropriate.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Our requirements included a "Special meeting" of which to take the votes to modify the documents. It was 90% for the CC&R's and 75% for By-laws and Articles of Incorporation. There was no way we would get that number to attend a special meeting. The lawyer instead drew up another form to sign to "give up" one's right to cast their vote at a "special meeting". This allowed us to go door to door or gather votes at meetings. A much easier way of gathering the votes.

We just had 5 changes. Mostly removing developer references and changes to the water set up. (Individual meters instead of HOA ONLY one). We had a document that just had those changes on it instead of the entire documents. The people were able to sign the document for the changes and then one for giving up rights for special meeting. After we finally got the last votes were able to pay to file them.

Filing is another issue. By-laws are typically not required to be filed. However, most will file them with their CC&R's for safe document keeping. Articles of Incorporation is a state level document. It costs money to file. It was $750 filing fee. That was NOT including the lawyer fees.

It took us over 2 years to gather the votes. Gathering the votes isn't a one person job. Take it to the people if you have to. Also the HOA isn't required to provide a copy of the documents except for By-laws. If your going to make copies available the HOA may need to charge for copy costs or put them electronically available. CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation are PUBLIC documents. That is why they have to be filed at the county or state level respectively.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Having just retired from board service, but having been the lead in restating our 20 y.o CC&Rs my last year of Board service, I worked with the Board to convince our members to vote to approve our restated CC&Rs starting at the end of 2021. We needed 67% approval and 25% of owners are off-site landlords. It took a LOT of hard work by the 6 directors & me.

We campaigned for 5 months and our inspectors of election tabulated all secret in-person & mail-in ballots in 4/22 at a meeting. We only achieved 63% approval, but CA permits HOAs that show evidence they they tried really hard to get enough votes to seek help from the courts IF they achieved a simple majority. The judge ruled in our favor. (I believe we could have gotten the 67% if we'd tried a little longer, but, honestly, we all were burned out.)

We're 200+ Multi-story condo units so much smaller than yours, BillB. I'm very slow at getting things done but will write a list of the steps we took to get such a favorable outcome.

But, First, how do owners vote in SC? Must they attend meetings in person? Absentee voting makes it easier to achieve quorum and enough votes. But I don't know if owners can vote that way in SC. If not, I assume you must get proxies about which I know nothing, but clearly that requires door-to-door campaigning.

Next, what % of owners live off site?
TristaJ (Texas)
Posts: 96
Posted:
We only have 82 units so it's easier for me. I just go start knocking on doors. I know I annoy people, but that's their problem. I have even had residents tell me, they don't believe in HOAs so they are not participating. I wanted to yell YOU MOVED HERE KNOWING THERE WAS AN HOA! I miraculously kept my cool and kept on moving.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In Calif. and maybe elsewhere, HOA resources may not be used to promote a particular vote, but may be used to promote voting in general. So, in newsletters, eblasts, our PM only urged owners to vote. Period. We individuals who campaigned used our own labor & funds (if any) to campaign for a vote of approval.

This was a complete restatement. None of our amendments were controversial except one and then only for few voters: The new CC&Rs ban smoking everywhere on our premises including in our condo units.

To comply with CA statute, we could only limit short-term rentals to a 30-day minimum, but that’s far better than not limiting them at all so it was a winning section.(We're within 6 blocks of a major convention center, big league sports venue, big outdoor concert venue, Nice-sized theater/playhouse, & historical district of 50+ restaurants)

Many of our steps were still in our owners' protected website. Oh, no--new MC dumped a lot of the older memos, so I'm working from memory. Here are the steps I recall we took.

1. Well attended Town Hall hosted by our president and HOA attorney. Reasons for restatement presented & discussed. Q&A. Pasttie, coffee & waters available
A. Delete confusing “developer language”
B. Add, delete or reword sections mandated by state statutes, which had changed a lot over 20 years.
C. Lenders MUCH prefer up-to-date CC&Rs
D. Eliminate ambiguities
E. Add a Maintenance Matrix as an "Exhibit" to clarify owners’ obligations & the HOA’s obligations to repair/replace. Too vague in original CC&Rs.
F. Tendencies & changes in the larger society, e.g.,limiting smoking materials
G. Entirely new sections, e.g., EV charging stations

2. Summarize results of TH; summarize each change (1 page) & eblast memo to owners. Invite further comments/ questions Attach redline version showing each major changes & clean version.

3. 2nd TH w/attorney--final Q&A. Also snacks and well-attended.

4. Article in monthly newsletter by president. Send out secret ballots.

5. 210+ units divvied into 7 “precincts.” Each director & I ("captains") chose ways to best reach each unit owner. I relied mainly on emails and colorful brief flyers at certain doors. I spoke on the phone with maybe 6 owners. Others campaigned by phone & text. One captain US mailed a very nice letter to his absentee owners. Our PM updated us very Friday re: who voted so we could adjust our lists. (Ballots, by statute, remain sealed till election night)

6. At St. Patrick's Day social event, about 12 weeks into campaign, the president announced we’d hold a drawing; all who voted in any given week were eligible for $100 prize. Notice on elevators & sent to owners.

7 About 16 weeks into the campaign, all absentee owners, who hadn’t voted were sent a new ballot with a stamp on the envelope that voters were required to use to return ballots. VERY successful!

8. Snippet of verbiage in our attorney-written letter to the court: "After having taken significant steps in an effort to get the vote out, the Board met with the Inspectors of Election on April 26, 2022, to open the ballots. A total of 151 ballots out of a possible 213 members were returned. Out of this total, 134 voted in favor of the restated CC&Rs and 17 against, so the restated CC&Rs failed to achieve the required 67% approval or 143 'yes' votes. [9 votes short!] However, approximately sixty-four percent (64%) of the membership voted in favor of the restated CC&Rs. Therefore, in an effort to implement the much needed restated CC&Rs, the Association filed a Petition to Reduce Required Voting Percentage, requesting the Court reduce the percentage of affirmative votes necessary to amend the CC&Rs consistent with the authority set forth by Civil Code section 4275."

There's a lot here but I see a fair amount of interest in this topic so went into perhaps tooooo much detail. I'll add another reply questioning whether "apathy" is the reasons it's hard to get out the vote.

Any luck, Krista????

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So, from my previous and from other posters on that thread, BillB, personal contact with owners--each and every one-- is crucial !

Knowing that it's really hard getting the 2/3 approval, we also considered sending out an individual amendment for a vote to reduce the approval to a simple majority. But we'd actually spent a couple+ of years and 3 Boards crafting various items for our restatement and decided to plow ahead. One new CC&R section is a simple majority to amend.

I'm thinking you might have better outcomes if you treat the CC&R amendments as an entirely different matter & election than the annual election? Have distinct eblasts or THs about them. This might help show how important they are?? Maybe?

Our HOA is complicated with three different ownership entities & 3 reserve accounts, and differential contributions to them and to the operation budget. And variable assessments for condo units based on size (sigh)So even reduced, it still, including two Exhibit, is 100 pages. One of our entities is a commercial area, so they even have some different restrictions than the residential entities. No tattoo parlors! No strip clubs! No worship services. Etc. this accounts for some of the length.

Toward the end of our campaign, I received happy permission from the other captains to "work on" owners I know fairly well and who I was surprised hadn't voted.

I was successful with several, and many related to me that they found the materials overwhelming. They were afraid they would vote for something that they hadn't read correctly. I had the 2-page letter and list of major changes posted on our protected website for owners and urged them to read this "summary." THEN, they could check the redline version and "clean" version if particular areas were of concern.

I did get two who wouldn't vote (same as a no) because they disliked one tiny trivial thing.

Btw, needing just a simple majority, we sent the restated Bylaws out at an earlier time. They are so bland and so shaped by State codes in required ways, and only 18 pages so it was pretty easy getting them approved.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Bottom line is it will take hard work from a dedicated group to bring about change. One cannot wish for it. One has to work for it. It is also possible to have an attorney draw up a petition(s) to collect signatures over a period of time to make change(s).
PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568
Posted:
Don't do what our newly appointed board of 1 month tried to do last night at our Annual meeting. They announced a quorum present with 40 owners of 144 units present because they said they only needed 20%. Thankfully, because 25% of those present where previous board members, someone spoke up and challenged them. That was me with others supporting me.

Not surprising our PM fumbled and could not find 20% anywhere in our governing documents. Our docs are old and still say "majority" of owners.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Here is another suggestion. I kind of think the HOA rules as "out of sight out of mind". One of the things I did is bring a copy of the documents to EVERY meeting. If someone asked a question, could get them out to reference the answer. If needed more research, then would tell them we need to review the documents before giving an answer. If we wrote a violation letter, we would quote the rule. That way people could SEE this was coming from an actual resource.

If you put it out there, they know not just grabbing stuff out of the air. There are solid documents to reference. This also plants a seed when they read them to see something to change. Once you spark that want for change, then you will gather more with that same spark. Eventually it will flame till the process is done. Good luck!

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Bill

What changes are you looking to make?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillB17 on 03/03/2024 8:10 AM
I am sure this is not an issue exclusive to our HOA. We are a single family HOA in SC with 422 lot owners (members). Our documents require 2/3 vote of the total votes in the Association (281votes) to pass any Amendment to our Declaration or By Laws. Proposed amendments are voted on along with our BOD election at our annual membership meeting. The notice of meeting includes a proxy/ballot for members to cast their votes on the BOD election and the proposed amendments. The issue is that we never get a sufficient number of ballots returned to pass an amendment. Over the past several years the highest number of ballots returned was 221, well short of the 281 required.

All of the amendments proposed were thoughtful and would improve our Association operation but could never pass due to an apathetic membership failing to participate in the process. I am considering offering an amendment to change our present requirements - maybe a majority of the total votes in the Association - maybe 75% of the total votes cast.

Amending HOA documents is a serious matter and should require a reasonable threshold of votes in order to pass. I am of the opinion that the votes of those members who participate should bear strong consideration in deciding an amendment (if you don't vote, don't complain!!). Yet, the threshold of votes required to pass should be high.

Any experience in this type of issue will be greatly appreciated.

And yes, I realize that passing this amendment will still require the 281 votes that we have never gotten before!!

Promise to give $100 to each person that votes IF and only if you achieve an 80% turn out rate, Or hire door knockers off task rabbit or other gig/task website. You just have to pay people to get involved.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 03/08/2024 2:31 PM

Promise to give $100 to each person that votes IF and only if you achieve an 80% turn out rate, Or hire door knockers off task rabbit or other gig/task website. You just have to pay people to get involved.

I hope you were being sarcastic.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Since we did in the last few weeks of our campaign have a drawing every week for new voters with the winner collecting $100 each week, it really did help us collect more secret ballots.

For HOAs where voting must take place in person (or by proxy), a nice array of prizes could be in a drawing held after the ballots were tabulated. It's in the very best interests of the association amend their old CC&Rs and using HOA resources to get out the vote is imo, very wise.

Though 98% of our votes are sent in or turned in before the annual meeting, we have good turnout anyway. The Social Committee provides nice apps & wine & waters. Our HOA attorney attended fields questions from owners while tabulation is occurring. The attorney also could be present at the CC&R approval meeting and was at ours.

"Door knockers" wouldn't work because owners very well could have questions or concerns that such strangers couldn't possibly answer.

I never circled back to my claim that "apathy" might not the only or even major reason why owners don't vote. In my previous post I wrote that many non-voters with whom I interacted seeking their vote expressed concern that they didn't understand the new CC&R. They were afraid they'd "miss something" when reviewing the 80+ pages of text + several pages of two Exhibits.

While the Board in '22 that sought votes was upfront, transparent, respectful of owners, & welcoming of owners to open board meetings, an abusive, secretive Board, who'd be thrown out by voters at the end of '19, was still on the minds of some. IMO, some voters felt they could not trust the Board to be "fair" to Owners. Not surprisingly this was a concern of voters who normally don't attend monthly open board meetings, i.e., voters who did not "know" the current Board.
LynneV1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 211
Posted:
"I am considering offering an amendment to change our present requirements - maybe a majority of the total votes in the Association - maybe 75% of the total votes cast."
This has come up before on these topics and it was stated that the idea is: HOAs want most of the people in the community to be able to have input on what's going on. If you only needed 75% of the "total votes cast", and you got 20 votes, 15 people would be able to change rules that affect 281 others. You might be able to change that 75% to 66%....
I am in South Carolina, and we have that problem. Our bylaws state, that if a 51 % quorum does not vote at a meeting, they can adjourn and reconvene. At the next meeting, we would need only half that quorum amount (25.5% rounded up ). But That would not help you as far as voting to change your by-laws or covenants.
A stamped, self-addressed return envelope with the proxy usually would help. We used to send them out two times.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LynneV1 on 03/13/2024 4:09 PM
"I am considering offering an amendment to change our present requirements - maybe a majority of the total votes in the Association - maybe 75% of the total votes cast."

Always check applicable statutes first, they may or may not allow such a change.
MariaO1 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
We are changing this now from 75% to 51%. We have rentals, and homeowners that after 2 years of trying to change covenants, have still not responded and not sent a vote in. We have offered gift cards to get a response (yes OR not), we have sent 5 letters in mail, we have asked door to door (and they still wont sign and return right then and there) we have sent docusigns etc. It is exhausting.

We are very close now, only short a couple votes (and have to go back to some for second homeowner signatures but that isn't a big deal I hope), and am excited for the change. FL statute has a 2/3 default if no % is named, so 75% to me is simply too high for HOAs where over 50% do not care about any communication they receive, do not show up to any meetings (in person or virtual) or any neighborhood events.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
A couple votes short of what? Reducing the percentage to 51% or amending your rental restriction?

I'll repeat what I said upthread. If you drop this percentage to get amendments you like, you're also dropping the percentage to get amendments you won't like. (It's like the filibuster. It's great if you have it, it's not great if the other guy has it.)

You're also lowering the number of units a corporate investor needs to snap up in order to convert your community to entirely rental property. My community is trying this right now, and since there is no chance that the board will get the rental restriction they want, they're simply lowering the drawbridge and inviting in the "barbarian hordes".

For the life of me, I can't understand why the board doesn't see this.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MariaO1 on 03/14/2024 10:33 AM
We are very close now, only short a couple votes (and have to go back to some for second homeowner signatures but that isn't a big deal I hope), and am excited for the change. FL statute has a 2/3 default if no % is named, so 75% to me is simply too high for HOAs where over 50% do not care about any communication they receive, do not show up to any meetings (in person or virtual) or any neighborhood events.
But when this majority does not respond or show for meetings, this majority is in fact speaking: The majority are happy with the status quo.

Nationwide rarely if ever does a simple majority have the power to amend covenants. The reason for this is to promote stability. Super majority requirements, to amend covenants, have been common for like 100 years now. This reflects a stunning number of lawyers considering this when they wrote Declarations.

If per chance your HOA's governing documents require mortgagee consent for amendments 'affecting mortgagees' interests,' then IMO this proposed amendment does affect mortgagees' interests. Florida statute 720 has more to say on this.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Ditto CathyA3's statement about how lowering the percentage to amend facilitates investor takeover.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Good for you and your group for working so hard, Maria! -- and I know just HOW hard the work is from experience. My HOA's CC&Rs , too, can now be amended with a simple majority as our Board wanted and as advised by our very well-respected HOA attorney.

I don't know if it would have helped but at least one Town Hall with presentation by the HOA's attorney might have prompted some to vote. We provided pastries & coffee to attract attendance and provide a friendly atmosphere.

A simple majority in reality is not "rarely" required at all. As can be seen in my above. CA, realizing how tough it is to to achieve a super majority, has had legislation for many years that if an HOA, after having put in diligent effort to get out the vote, cannot achieve a (in our case) 2/3rds majority, they may apply if they rec'd a simple majority. We'd rec'd 64% and were granted approval by the courts of our restated CC&Rs

Given the vast # of HOAs in Calif. and the many years this statute has been in effect, a lot of HOAs have been approved with less than a super majority and many with only a simple majority. See my 3/5, 2:44 post for more on this.

I'm still not convinced that lack of voting is due mainly to "apathy" or mainly because the "majority are [sic] happy with the status quo." Those two "explanations" are common, however.

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