HOA Charging some members for use Of clubhouse and not others.

That seems unconventional, but not discriminatory. Presumably all members have the same rule - you can reserve it for free for a qualifying event, but must pay a fee for a non-qualifying event.

Not questioning if the HOA can charge. The HOA clubhouse can only be reserved by a member. That member must be present the entire time. Both are exclusive use of the clubhouse. That doesn't mean that only members can attend the event(S), just the opposite. as you must be invited to either, member or not. The purpose seems to be a moot point. A member is a member is a member.

That actually seems backwards to me. Social events like birthday parties are more likely to see rowdy behavior that results in damage or other messes that must be cleaned up ($$$), whereas organizations holding meetings are more likely to see business-like behavior.

The communities I'm familiar with charge deposits for private events and the person reserving the clubhouse has to sign a waiver/acknowledgement that they will be responsible for damages and cleanup beyond routine clubhouse maintenance. Official HOA organizations conducting HOA business are generally not charged for these things - although I guess committee members can get rowdy with the best of them.

I was just commenting on your previous comment, "....but an organization might want to use it every month, which might keep other homeowners from using it....". No I wouldn't want to attend an event that I wasn't invited to. However, any event that doesn't include every member, does in fact keep other members from using it during that time, no matter what the purpose of the reservation is.

You are spot on when you stated, "(the homeowners ARE the ones who pay for the maintenance of said clubhouse, after all)". Actually, my point exactly, only home owners in good standing (usually means they are all paid up on the assessed dues) can reserve the clubhouse. Even the members that will have to pay to reserve the clubhouse, pay dues for maintenance. Using your logic, why should some members have to pay twice for the same service?

By law, the HOA is allowed to make reasonable rules concerning the use of common areas such as a clubhouse.

I think this rule is too close to "reasonable" to justify fighting it. For one thing, those who reserve the clubhouse for use by an organization can pass the cost of the reservation onto these organization's members.

Note: I think "discrimination" is a poor choice of words here.

If any of these organizations are bona fide non-profit charitable organizations, then I would be surprise if they had no budget and no income.

The reason I do not feel "selective enforcement" works is because this rule applies to any owner who wants to book the clubhouse for an organization's use.

Most importantly IMO, at this time you say the board is only considering this policy. If you want to confound the board and force them to see what may be an error in their thinking, ask what are the rules for throwing a party for friends. Then ask: Can't a person wanting to host a meeting for his/her organization simply call it a party for friends? Isn't enforcement of the proposed policy going to be problematic? Does the board really want to vet the invitees to gatherings?

I think the appropriate policy is to allow reservations on certain days (first come first serve); require a deposit; and if inspection the next day shows no damage, refund the deposit. If some people monopolize the reservations with say organization meetings, further rules should be considered.

This forum has a lot of collective experience with clubhouse reservation policies. Consider asking what has worked for other HOAs.

Well, they apparently want to get involved in vetting the invitees to gatherings, thus the policy. I whole heartedly agree with your statement, "I think the appropriate policy is to allow reservations on certain days (first come first serve); require a deposit; and if inspection the next day shows no damage, refund the deposit." The problem is they're NOT requiring it from everyone.

All members pay dues for maintenance of all common areas. Why would certain select members have to pay twice? Not sure what you would call that when the policy excludes certain members and not others, picky?

Thanks for the comments. You've given me some things to think about.

I see the Elle's most recent post and mine crossed. And mine also crossed with one of TimG's. No, selective informants does not so work, TimG.

It does not matter whether those eating to use the clubhouse are profit or non-profit.what matter is a resident of the HOA wants to reserve the Clubhouse for a legal purpose. All should be treated equally

I showed how we've done it in my HOA for many years and it's worked well.

I don't grasp allowing reservations on certain days. I CAN see a rule limiting any group reserving for more than one day per month (the' we've needed nothing like that in my HOA), say every sounds at 10AM.

ANY resident who uses the clubhouse derives a greater benefit from it than those who do not. Ditto, the pool; the gym; the spa; the Billiards Room; the Bicycle Storage Rooms. That's exactly why all Clubhouse users should be charged equally. No elite few should able to use it gratis. That approach opposes all equitable legal principals.

Say, TimG, why do you think the Board wants to "vet" the actual purpose of using the Clubhouse. Politics? Religion? Something else?

ElleN,

I could not agree more with you. Just treat everyone the same. If they want to charge rent, right now, they propose it not being refundable, charge everyone.

LOL. I was on the Board for 6 years. So, maybe I have a little more experience than the current Board. Specially, the Virginia Property Owners Association Act found at Title 55.1 Chapter 18 of the Virginia Code, which governs how VA HOAs are to run. Some don't understand that just because they publish some rule, doesn't make it legal. It must conform with VA Code. I guess they should read it over.

Thanks for your comments.

Sorry, "open forum." Bad typing day for me.

It is going to be amazing the number of "birthday" parties will happen now...

Tim,

Are you on the board?

By the way, here is another resource for you:

FAIRFAX COUNTY Community Association Guide

Might not be specific to where you live. However, it takes the current law and best practices to explain how Associations should act/run within Virginia.

No I am not currently on the Board. I did serve for 6 years and my last year as President.

Thanks for the info. I will check it out. Though I do not live in Fairfax County, they are still governed the VA Property Owners' Association Act.

CA example:

Civil Code sec 5105(a)2) Ensure access to the common area meeting space, if any exists, during a campaign, at no cost, to all candidates, including those who are not incumbents, and to all members advocating a point of view, including those not endorsed by the board, for purposes reasonably related to the election.

The author of the steadily.com sub-site is an insurance "professional." I think it's just poor and careless writing on his part. The current statute speaks of five specific lot owner rights, none of them speaking to amenities.

I would not make the rule the Board is proposing. But I continue to feel that charging an organization for clubhouse use is not unreasonable. The main beneficiary of clubhouse use is the organization, after all. By contrast for family events, where a family member is an owner in the HOA, the main beneficiary is the family.

It's still messy and difficult to enforce such a rule. But a board reasoning as I describe is not unreasonable, AFAIC. Also I do not think the organization members (who are presumably mostly outsiders) should expect to get something for free. TimG5, if this rule is passed, and your organization does not want to pay a nominal fee for use of the clubhouse, I think you ought to be open to finding another venue for your organization.

And what does this have to due with an outside organization desiring to reserve a club house on HOA property?

Even though TimG's no longer monitoring, there seems to be considerable interest in this topic.

I'm not arguing that outside organizations can rent the clubhouse. This seems to be what some think because of TomG's use of the word "organization." I think this is what Dean seems to think. I am saying that any resident in good standing may invite any persons or groups they wish to use the Clubhouse for lawful purposes.

But if a resident of my HOA wants to invite an organization to which s/he belongs, as in my Rotary Club example, WHY should that resident be charged, but not the resident who holds a baby shower? In each case, persons who aren't residents of the HOA will attend. What is the justification for treating residents unequally? In what sense is this "reasonable?"

"Who benefits" from use of the club house is the person who rents it--the resident. "Who benefits?" as Elle adds, is not a relevant question here, in my opinion. It can only lead to the "purpose," but why should the HOA care about the purpose?

Ooooh, I should have checked further on my citation, who said his opinion was based on the VA POA Act. Still, Would anyone argue that there's a legal reason in VA why residents,* who all pay the same dues, should NOT all have equal access to the common areas and amenities???

I might be able to check further on this, but I disagree with David because the Rule, in the first place, creates unfairness and inequality between owners. One group has privileges which the other does not possess.

* I keep writing "residents" because in many HOAs, maybe most, owners who are not residents may not use the amenities. But, owners must be in good standing for their renters to use them

** Terri mentions some statutes in CA, of which I'm entirely aware an entirely support. But I don't think they help here

Yes they are.

The paper also draws on applicable corporate statutes, Ombudsman statutes, the common interest community board, etc.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing, David: The rule has unfairness to one group and privilege for another built into it. And in TimG's case, it'd be "unreasonable" because so far as we can tell, the board has given NO "reason" for wanting to make the rule. I'm not an attorney either. The HOA attorney for my Assoc., who's highly experienced and respected in the field, wrote in an opinion to us that if our HOA discovers a source of unfairness in our documents or practices, the Board should "endeavor" to correct it.

And no one who's responded to this thread has speculated about a "reason" or offered a reason that makes sense.

I can see that if there's huge demand for the clubhouse so that it's difficult to reserve a room-even well in advance-- that rules limiting use would need to be made, e.g., no group can rent it more than once a month except for board or board-authorized committee meetings or HOA social events....or similar.

But TimG says theirs is lightly used. As is ours. Regular once month meetings are for a Book Club, a MahJong group, and three elderly men who play cribbage. In the past, we had a weekly Christian Prayer
Group and even a monthly knitting circle. Meanwhile anyone may use the room when it's not reserved as small groups did to watch NFL playoff games. They just may not keep anyone out.

Yes, Terri, you're correctly reporting the "reason" some users of such clubhouses do not have to pay in CA. But there's nothing in this post about CA. I agree with Melissa here; the non-refundable deposit is for the "cost of use," not what--the purpose-- it's used for.

Are you serious? Are you saying you never refer to laws in California when someone from another state asks a question? I answered a question that was posted. It didn't matter that the reason came from California, the question was only what reason would there be. Why do you feel need need to nitpick my comments. Would you like me to reciprocate and start pointing out your mistakes?

Importantly, if the Girl Scout wants to have a birthday party, they don’t have to pay. If the girl getting married wants to hold a Rotary meeting, she will have to pay. The same rule applies to everyone. The rule is not based on who you are, it’s based on clubhouse usage.

Why couldn’t a member in good standing offer the clubhouse to wedding parties every Saturday free of charge provided they paid the church the normal $5,000 to the church as long as the member was present?

Why couldn’t the church services in the club house every Sunday?

Why couldn’t a member is good standing offer the club house to the local Narcotics Anonymous chapter for weekly meetings as long as they attended?

Because none of those functions are the purpose of the amenity.

I was a bit worried Tim was in my community (I'm in the Capital Region) as we are in the process of reviewing our clubhouse rental process. We have the following types of "events" (by priority): HOA business (Board, ARC, & Social Cmte Meeting, etc.; HOA & Social Cmte organized events (parties); Events organized by the community open to the residents (Games, Exercise, Book Club, etc.); Private resident events (community residents generally not invited).

Here is how we currently work:

• We are reasonably flexible with scheduling of private events if there is sufficient notice or a conflict with an already scheduled event.
• We have a rental form (for the last category) that the renter needs to fill out and sign that spells everything out. Only residents can rent the Clubhouse and will need to attend the event. We do not rent to outside groups.
• No charge except for private events. For those, we charge a rental fee and a refundable deposit – the deposit is refunded provided the space is properly cleaned after the event and there is no damage. Renters will be billed if cleaning/damage fees are more than the deposit (never had an issue there, fingers crossed).

The issue we are debating now is for events that are organized by a group/subset of residents but are not open to the whole community. If the whole community is not invited, should they have to rent the Clubhouse and pay the fee?
We had one group do this recently – The Clubhouse was not reserved by anyone else and they wanted to have a party for a subset of neighbors. They did not issue an open invite to the community but stated they would not turn away anyone that showed up (a smoke screen in my personal opinion). Personally, I would have preferred they issue an invite to everyone, which likely would have increased attendance by only a few people. If it had been a small get together to watch the sports ball game on the TV, I don’t think anyone would gave cared.

Tim: You have my sympathy. Just try to be transparent with what is expected and try to get buy-in from the community. As long as the rules are generally fair and spelled out, this should minimize pushback.

Our rules was you had to be in good standing to rent the clubhouse. Pay a $100 damage deposit that was returned if no damage. Plus a $25 rental fee non-refundable. What you rented the place for was none of our business. It's just a building. We charged the amount to cover the use of the building not the cause. A building uses electricity, water, cleaning supplies and wear/tear each time used. The HOA has the right to be compensated for the expense of clubhouse use.

If you tell people that "birthday" parties are free but everything else costs. You will have no other events but "birthday" parties. Put a few "Happy Birthday" balloons on the door and have a bible study inside. The point is you charge for the USE of the building never the cause.