looking for help with the hoa

Started by KevinE1 • 35 replies • 391 views

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KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I will try and make the back story short without leaving out any details.

my neighborhood was once a gold course with an HOA, let's call it HOA Red. HOA red has covenants and restrictions and they're properly filed and documented with the county clerks office. At one point the golf course went under and the land was sold off. HOA red owners signed and dated a document that states the rights of thr property return to the individual lot owners and they acknowledge the HOA being dissolved. Roughly 3 to 4 years later, a group of neighbors decide they want an HOA, let's call it HOA Blue. They filed the paperwork to be recognized as a non profit with the state but never filed any paperwork with the county clerks office, never signed and dated any paperwork establishing their "claim" as the new hoa. Fast forward, 2019 I purchase my house and ask about any hoa and get told by countless people that nothing exists, the selling agent marked NO on the HOA form that went with my home and I never signed any paperwork acknowledging rules etc..

Every year they ask for the dues and I kindly tell them to please present the required documents that I'm asking for that shows the legitimacy of HOA blue and time and time again, I'm given the same paperwork that I've already seen but nothing new. I sat down with the former president and showed that individual why I feel the way I do and that nothing has been properly filed etc.. That individual agreed with me and said they would present it to the new president and ask for a meeting. The new president shot down my request for a meeting and said let a 3rd party resolve the issue.

I've stated multiple times, I will pay the dues owed and forward if they can present the proper paperwork but I'm meet with nothing but " just pay it already "

looking for some guidance from anyone who's faced something similar or is on a board and can shed some light on how they've handled anything similar.

thank you in advance.

apologies for any spelling errors, I'm doing this on my phone.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 6:35 PM
my neighborhood was once a gold course with an HOA, let's call it HOA Red. HOA red has covenants and restrictions and they're properly filed and documented with the county clerks office.

The language here is important.

First, it is not the HOA that has covenants and restrictions. It is the land on which the homes and golf course sit that have covenants and restrictions.

"Covenants run with the land... " is the legalese version.

The courts have for over a century viewed covenants as contractual terms. Covenants are an agreement among neighbors to use the land in certain ways and more.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 6:35 PM
At one point the golf course went under and the land was sold off. HOA red owners signed and dated a document that states the rights of thr property return to the individual lot owners and they acknowledge the HOA being dissolved.

There are exacting legal steps involved in terminating a HOA.

-- For one thing, the corporation has to be dissolved //and// all common areas sold. Heads up: A dissolved corporation is not the same as a corporation that no longer exists. A dissolved corporation can still own land, though it is supposed to be trying to sell the land. A dissolved corporation can still be sued. Are there common areas that the present corporation owns?

-- For another thing the covenants would have to be terminated, using the proper procedure for amending or terminating the covenants as given in the covenants themselves. You would have to share much more here for people to opine on whether the HOA is truly terminated. Usually it is no easy feat to terminate a HOA, the corporation, and the covenants.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 6:35 PM

Roughly 3 to 4 years later, a group of neighbors decide they want an HOA, let's call it HOA Blue. They filed the paperwork to be recognized as a non profit with the state

Meaning they formed a corporation and registered it with the Pa Secretary of State.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 6:35 PM
but never filed any paperwork with the county clerks office, never signed and dated any paperwork establishing their "claim" as the new hoa.

I want to know if the old covenants are still on record with the county clerk. Chances are they are. Also are any amendments or other paperwork on record with the county clerk saying the covenants are terminated?

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 6:35 PM
Fast forward, 2019 I purchase my house and ask about any hoa and get told by countless people that nothing exists, the selling agent marked NO on the HOA form that went with my home and I never signed any paperwork acknowledging rules etc..

These are all good signs but not quite dispositive.

At this time this HOA (which might be a voluntary HOA) is trying to collect dues from you. You are refusing, as you see no covenants requiring dues. Has the HOA threatened to lien your home for the amount of the dues owed?

Do you receive any benefit from the HOA? Like road maintenance? Drainage maintenance? Use of a HOA owned park? Sidewalk maintenance? Utilities? If so, the law says you have to pay for this benefit.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

The old covenants are on file at the county office and they're notarized with the file date. No further amendments have been filed with the office since the document dissolving the HOA around 2003.When I brought this up with individual, I was asked if they could back date paperwork to cover the gap...

The HOA does not own any land, as it was all sold when the golf course went under. The "common area" aka club house was also sold off. They're holding onto the idea that the HOA exists under the original lot layout for the land when the golf course existed. The 2003 document states the HOA president and secretary transfer all control back to the lot owners.

The HOA dues go towards lights in the neighborhood and a legal account, as well as admin expenses. Aside from that, there's no benefit. The covenants and restrictions only matter to them when it comes time to collect money, besides that they turn a blind eye to it all.

technically per the bylaws, which are written to protect the golf course and benefit the players, I'm not supposed to have a camper in my driveway. But after 30 days if there's no written complaint, they ignore it.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Bylaws generally govern the corporation, including things like how elections are to be held, etc. Limitations about campers, etc. would typically be in the CCRs/Covenants. These are very different documents. The covenants usually require a fairly high bar to amend, often 2/3 or 3/4. Termination could require more depending on what the covenants and state law say. If no amendment to terminate has been recorded, that is not a good thing from your perspective. You might want to have an attorney review the situation, or you could wait until the association attempts further action, like a lien, foreclosure, or violation notice. Ultimately, this could end up with a judge deciding, which tends to enrich lawyers and do the opposite to the actual parties to the lawsuit.

Even if no association exists, covenants often allow members to enforce against other members (as ElleN said, they are a contract between owners), so your neighbor could sue if you had a camper that was disallowed by the covenants, assuming the covenants had not been extinguished.

If it turns out there is a valid association (or covenants) and it wasn't disclosed to you, you might have some legal recourse against the title company (assuming you got title insurance), the listing agent, or the closing agent.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 7:22 PM
The old covenants are on file at the county office and they're notarized with the file date. No further amendments have been filed with the office since the document dissolving the HOA around 2003.When I brought this up with individual, I was asked if they could back date paperwork to cover the gap...

The HOA does not own any land, as it was all sold when the golf course went under. The "common area" aka club house was also sold off. They're holding onto the idea that the HOA exists under the original lot layout for the land when the golf course existed. The 2003 document states the HOA president and secretary transfer all control back to the lot owners.

The HOA dues go towards lights in the neighborhood and a legal account, as well as admin expenses. Aside from that, there's no benefit. The covenants and restrictions only matter to them when it comes time to collect money, besides that they turn a blind eye to it all.

technically per the bylaws, which are written to protect the golf course and benefit the players, I'm not supposed to have a camper in my driveway. But after 30 days if there's no written complaint, they ignore it.

When your Golf Course dissolved and you were no longer paying HOA assessments, was the deed to your home amended
to note that you we no longer in an HOA?

This might provide some insight. Watch both parts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOhqUJib30E

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 6:35 PM
I will try and make the back story short without leaving out any details.

my neighborhood was once a gold course with an HOA, let's call it HOA Red. HOA red has covenants and restrictions and they're properly filed and documented with the county clerks office. At one point the golf course went under and the land was sold off. HOA red owners signed and dated a document that states the rights of thr property return to the individual lot owners and they acknowledge the HOA being dissolved. Roughly 3 to 4 years later, a group of neighbors decide they want an HOA, let's call it HOA Blue. They filed the paperwork to be recognized as a non profit with the state but never filed any paperwork with the county clerks office, never signed and dated any paperwork establishing their "claim" as the new hoa. Fast forward, 2019 I purchase my house and ask about any hoa and get told by countless people that nothing exists, the selling agent marked NO on the HOA form that went with my home and I never signed any paperwork acknowledging rules etc..

Every year they ask for the dues and I kindly tell them to please present the required documents that I'm asking for that shows the legitimacy of HOA blue and time and time again, I'm given the same paperwork that I've already seen but nothing new. I sat down with the former president and showed that individual why I feel the way I do and that nothing has been properly filed etc.. That individual agreed with me and said they would present it to the new president and ask for a meeting. The new president shot down my request for a meeting and said let a 3rd party resolve the issue.

I've stated multiple times, I will pay the dues owed and forward if they can present the proper paperwork but I'm meet with nothing but " just pay it already "

looking for some guidance from anyone who's faced something similar or is on a board and can shed some light on how they've handled anything similar.

thank you in advance.

apologies for any spelling errors, I'm doing this on my phone.

I’d get this right or you may find a lien on your home and an auction scheduled.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I didn't own the home when the golf course went under. I believe they closed doors around 1998-99 and around 2000-2003 that document from the president and secretary, stating they were returning the rights back to the lot owners, was signed.

The covenants/restrictions are all tied to HOA red and HOA blue is trying to use the same ones but they have no amendments registered and recorded. They've shown me the new ammendments but they're not signed or dated. I asked for a copy that was and they didn't provide one.

when speaking with the title company and the county clerk, neither can find anything pertaining to HOA Blue.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

In your place, I'd have a talk with a knowledgeable attorney. Here's why.

* It sounds like HOA Red may not have been properly terminated, and HOA Blue may not legally exist. Reasoning: Typically documents have to be recorded in the county before they come effective. Also, CC&Rs "run with the land", as noted. To terminate them, a vote of the homeowners must be held, and the CC&Rs may have required unanimous approval for this. Then a legal document affirming the termination of the HOA would be recorded. Or something along that line.

* Many people are pretty clueless about how HOAs work, including homeowners and board members. Even so, they can make enough legal trouble resulting in enough expense that you want to be on solid legal ground before you tell them "nope, not gonna do it." This is why I believe that talking to a lawyer could be money well spent. This situation is more convoluted that a typical HOA dispute can be. So while it sounds to me like HOA Blue does not legally exist, I'd have to follow all of the filings and alleged filings and read the actual text of each before I could say one way or the other. And I wouldn't bet money on my opinion at the end.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

You could get together with like minded neighbors, pay your dues "under protest" then sue the issuer of dues invoices in small claims court for a refund as there is no basis to charge the dues.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Covenants are not "contractural terms," they are enforceable equitable servitudes but courts interpret them similarly to contracts.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Was the HOA under Declarant control back in 2003 when this alleged "transfer" took place?

If you do not know what a Declarant is, ask.

If the answer is yes, the declarant lawfully controlled the HOA back then, then a transfer of control to owners does //not// mean that the covenants terminate.

Declarants transfer control all the time at a certain point in a subdivision's life, proceeding per the terms of the Declaration in so doing. The covenants never terminate by virtue of this act alone.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 7:22 PM
The HOA dues go towards lights in the neighborhood and a legal account, as well as admin expenses. Aside from that, there's no benefit.

If the currently recorded covenants say the association has responsibility for the lights, then from my reading over the years, owners have a legal obligation to pay for this upkeep. Said upkeep may very well include reasonable admin expenses, including legal fees for collecting assessments.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/02/2024 7:22 PM
The covenants and restrictions only matter to them when it comes time to collect money, besides that they turn a blind eye to it all.

As DouglasK1 pointed out, Neighbor X has the right to enforce a covenant against Neighbor Y. Whether the association (such as it is) has the right and/or obligation to enforce covenants 'just depends.' But I take it this is not your main concern, and commenting more on this requires your answering more questions (and consulting an attorney will still be necessary), so I will leave this topic alone.

Absorbing what others and I post is likely going to take sometime, as it reflects years of reading on these topics and often, getting a handle on somewhat complicated real property law. All this thread can do is prep you for a meeting with an attorney, IMO.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What paper work? Articles of Incorporation are public. They are at state level. CC &r are county level. Also public. If they are public then you are responsible for getting them. The HOA does not need to hand over public documents.

You can keep digging your heels in but I would make sure there are no liens in your property at this point.

Former HOA President

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I've pulled all the public paperwork that's notarized, signed and dated. The paperwork I'm requesting is for validation that they are more than a non profit that's registered with the state. The most recent paperwork/document that I have regarding the neighborhood is the 2003 letter that shows the original HOA president and secretary transfer control back to the individual lot owners.

the most recent amendment that's been presented that "allows" them to collect fee and etc...doesn't have any dates or signatures and isn't recorded with the public office.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

And if this exists, how much you owe?

Sounds like they are now owner owned versus developer. Still not off the hook cause you do not have the paper you think exists.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 10:02 AM
I've pulled all the public paperwork that's notarized, signed and dated. The paperwork I'm requesting is for validation that they are more than a non profit that's registered with the state. The most recent paperwork/document that I have regarding the neighborhood is the 2003 letter that shows the original HOA president and secretary transfer control back to the individual lot owners.

the most recent amendment that's been presented that "allows" them to collect fee and etc...doesn't have any dates or signatures and isn't recorded with the public office.

For the amendment, there should be an association record of an election to approve the amendment. If not recorded, normally it would not be valid.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

You can check with the county recorder's office, either in person or online. You should be able to find all recorded documents related to HOA Red and HOA Blue (there may be some surprises as well, such as easements that you didn't know existed).

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I've checked the county clerks office for anything related to all parties involved and there is nothing for the newest group.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

even as an owner owned, wouldn't they still need to keep record with the county office?

I'm genuinely asking and not trying to be hard headed here.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 11:36 AM
even as an owner owned, wouldn't they still need to keep record with the county office?

Respectfully I think some of the vocabulary here has not sunk in.

"Owner owned" does not mean the owners can just suddenly decide the covenants go away. Covenants are a big legal deal, as noted above.

Keep asking questions.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 11:36 AM
even as an owner owned, wouldn't they still need to keep record with the county office?

I'm genuinely asking and not trying to be hard headed here.

I say yes.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

alright, apologies for my denseness here.

If I'm understanding it, the covenants can remain because it takes some work to remove them. If the orignal group is no longer in existence and the newest group took it upon themselves to form themselves and declare themselves as the neighbor HOA without proper documentation and recording...they as a group can't enforce anything but a neighbor to neighbor despute can still occur.

did I get it right?

The newest amendment(not signed/dated or recorded) is where they're trying to draw their power to enforce fines and collect dues.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 12:07 PM
If I'm understanding it, the covenants can remain because it takes some work to remove them.

True, and so far the signs are the covenants are still in effect.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 12:07 PM
If the orignal group is no longer in existence and the newest group took it upon themselves to form themselves

For now, I am going to translate this to there was no HOA board for awhile, then some group took over and declared themselves to be the lawful HOA and corporate board.

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 12:07 PM
and declare themselves as the neighbor HOA without proper documentation and recording...they as a group can't enforce anything but a neighbor to neighbor despute can still occur.

To answer this, one needs to read the covenants (a.k.a. "CC&Rs" or "Declaration). Do the covenants require a homeowners' association? Do the covenants require an association that is incorporated?

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 12:07 PM

The newest amendment(not signed/dated or recorded) is where they're trying to draw their power to enforce fines and collect dues.

Look at the newest amendment. What does the contents of the newest amendment say about //what document// is being amended?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 12:07 PM
alright, apologies for my denseness here.

If I'm understanding it, the covenants can remain because it takes some work to remove them. If the orignal group is no longer in existence and the newest group took it upon themselves to form themselves and declare themselves as the neighbor HOA without proper documentation and recording...they as a group can't enforce anything but a neighbor to neighbor despute can still occur.

did I get it right?

The newest amendment(not signed/dated or recorded) is where they're trying to draw their power to enforce fines and collect dues.

Maybe. An HOA isn't a "group". It's a legal entity, most often a non-profit corporation. Individual owners are referred to as "members". The covenants (the CC&Rs) are attached to the deed of each member's home and are enforceable.

The CC&Rs may be amended by the membership. This requires a vote with approval by the majority of members (most often a super-majority of 67% or 75%, and some amendments require unanimous approval). Dissolving an HOA may be one of the things requiring unanimous approval. The percentages will be spelled out in the CC&Rs.

The legal documents dissolving HOA Red must be recorded and don't take effect until the record date. If the documents were not recorded, then HOA Red has not been dissolved and the original CC&Rs are still in effect (I assume the latter were recorded).

Assuming HOA Red was legally dissolved - which I'm not willing to assume at this point - homeowners who want to form a new HOA (HOA Blue) must hire lawyers to write the necessary CC&R documents and must conduct a vote of all potentially affected owners. Assuming that the new CC&Rs receive enough "yes" votes - which I'm not willing to assume at this point - the new CC&Rs must be recorded. They are not in effect if they have not been recorded. HOA Blue "board members" can't just knock on Good Ol' Joe's door and say "pay up" - they have no authority to do so if there is no HOA, and doing so is probably fraud.

As I said, if I were an owner in this mess, I'd be talking to a lawyer because there may have been multiple screw-ups. People who mess up can still cause expensive trouble, and I'd want to be on solid ground before I blow them off.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Kevin

You said: "The 2003 document states the HOA president and secretary transfer all control back to the lot owners."

I say it takes a lot more to dissolve an HOA. I think the original HOA (Red) might still be there, just inactive.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Wondering if the original Declaration had any language in it about expiration or renewal standards.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

There's no record of an election and the amendment hasn't been recorded. I asked them for a signed copy after they sent me one with no date or signature and they have yet to present one. I check with the clerks office and no such document exists. I repeatedly told them that I will pay and follow everything once the documents have been presented but I'm still waiting.

and I'll say it again, I have dug up everything from the county clerks office that has any relation to the new and old group.

I really appreciate everyone's input, it's opened my eyes to things I need to consider and dig more into and has been helpful.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Thank you for the response, I'll look into those documents and see what they say. I do know the ammendment/document that they are referring to is filed with the county but under a different HOA name. That doc is dated back to 1996/1998 under the original name and golf course.

The original name is something along the lines of "HOA red limited partnership inc and red inc " and the newest one is "HoA Blue inc" also known as the association. The document that I got that snippet from is an amendment stating a transfer of ownership but its not signed or dated.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 2:58 PM
There's no record of an election and the amendment hasn't been recorded. I asked them for a signed copy after they sent me one with no date or signature and they have yet to present one. I check with the clerks office and no such document exists. I repeatedly told them that I will pay and follow everything once the documents have been presented but I'm still waiting.

and I'll say it again, I have dug up everything from the county clerks office that has any relation to the new and old group.

I really appreciate everyone's input, it's opened my eyes to things I need to consider and dig more into and has been helpful.

If you do what I suggested above, pay the dues "under protest" then take the ones invoicing to small claims court for a refund, you will force them to produce proof that they have a legal basis to invoice you. That can be accomplished within a couple of months at very low cost.

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I think this is the route we will take. I appreciate the input from everyone. I attempted to upload some of the documents but it said the file size was too large.

Thank you again everyone!

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 3:05 PM
The original name is something along the lines of "HOA red limited partnership inc and red inc " and the newest one is "HoA Blue inc" also known as the association.

Can you go to https://businesssearch.org/secretary-of-state/pennsylvania/; search for HOA red and HOA blue, and report back here whether either or both are active corporations or suspended corporations (or something else)?

If you have not looked at the "plats" (maps) of the subdivision, get to the county clerk's and do so. Notations on the plats can reveal the existence and location of covenants.

As CathyA3 noted, watch for any references to easements as well.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinE1 on 02/03/2024 3:46 PM
I attempted to upload some of the documents but it said the file size was too large.

Word, PDF and jpeg files must be under 200 kilobytes in size to attach them to a post here.

Please redact identifying info (HOA name et cetera) from anything you attach.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

You are fully within your rights to request copies of the association declaration and articles of incorporation. The declaration will contain the date the HOA was created.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 02/03/2024 1:43 PM
Kevin

You said: "The 2003 document states the HOA president and secretary transfer all control back to the lot owners."

I say it takes a lot more to dissolve an HOA. I think the original HOA (Red) might still be there, just inactive.

That 2003 statement, along with the original name of of "HOA red limited partnership inc and red inc", sounds more like the transfer of control from the developer to the membership (ie, owners).

This is a normal process. Developers often do business under an LLC or some other legal structure. Usually what happens is that the developer controls the HOA until certain milestones are met - for example, 75% of lots have been sold. At this point the developer turns control over to the homeowners, and the homeowners elect board members. The developer may still be involved, building the remaining homes and finishing last minute items, but he doesn't have a controlling vote on the board anymore. The homeowner-led board now makes the decisions for the community: sets the budget and assessments, collects assessments from owners, hires vendors, pays the bills and maintains the books. They also may hire a community manager to handle the day-to-day managing of the property.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Kevin,

It sounds like the Association took all the right steps but FAILED to complete the task by recording the abolishment of or amendment to the covenants.

Until that action is recorded, the covenants still exist and, in my opinion, are enforceable.

If someone from that board is still around (and has paperwork) they can file the document now.
The date of the action and the date of filing do not need to match.

That said, you should talk to an attorney about this.

DO NOT rely on what your closing company, the seller or the realtor said. I was told by the closing company that an HOA does not exist, they were wrong. Fortunately, I knew it when I purchased.

JoeN6 (Virginia)
Posts: 94

Posted:

Kevin I encourage you to read the Pennsylvanian uniform planned community act very carefully . One thing that jumps out at me is under “ organization “ of a unit owners association, … it says “ a unit owners association will be formed no later than when the first unit is sold”. Reading this thread hoa red was formed before units were sold then dissolved . Now a unit owners association( hoa blue) is trying to form after the first unit is sold . It was sold when , 2019 ? Doesn’t seem to align with the * Act* .

KevinE1 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I'll look into that document and read through it. I have no idea when the first house sold but HOA blue was formed in 2005, 2 years after HOA red returned everything to the lot owners. I purchased my house in 2019.

At this time I plan on paying under protest and gathering everything I need to proceed forward.

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