management companies

Are you on the Board, Walt? If so or not, are you saying that each owner separately pays the old MC? I find your wording a little confusing, but maybe that's just me.

IN NC, can you not make a records request to the Board fro review or for a copy of the document that supposedly terminates the contract with the old MC.

Thanks for the quick response, JohnC46!

Right you are. It's 60 days notice from either side and holds our HOA to $2,200 a month until 10/31/25! Thanks again.

Again, the Board claims they terminated the contract, but the owners have seen nothing legal to that effect. In the January newsletter, the Board says they have sent "cease & desist"
letters to the company. You & I both know that doesn't mean squat in terms of the contract.

Thanks for your quick response KerryL1. Nothing wrong with you. My brevity attempt left a lot out.

I was on the Board and Treasurer from Mid May 2023 until 11/8/23. They fired me as Treasurer, then had a Special meeting to throw me off the Board. Don't let that mislead you, the meeting was a sham. What I call the cancerous culture of this Board goes back many years, and it so, so, sad and unfortunate for those of us that care and have to watch our condo continue to go downhill.

The question is which company should be pay? We have no notice of any legal arrangement to terminate the old contract. Our Board keeps saying don't pay them. Don't contact them.
Their January newsletter said they sent "cease and desist" letters to the management company. Most of us know that doesn't cut it contractually. The old company keeps billing us which led me to investigate. Why would they keep billing us if they had no right to? The old management now refers me back to the board. Our corrupt Board does not respond. I, and I guess other homeowners have been sending our monthly assessments to the new company, but if our HOA technically has two valid contracts, which do I pay? It would seem the first company would be the one to pay until this is all settled.

Part of my efforts are to force our Board to come clean with the homeowners.

Sadly, KerryL1, so much of what we read these days automatically assumes the HOA Board is honest. Not the case here now or for many years past. I have grievances going back several years for violating both NC Statute 47C (Condominium Act), 55A NC Nonprofit Corporation act, and our CC&R's.

Not to get on my soapbox, but, I've been an activist for 7 years at the condo. Homeowners occasionally ask, "Why can they do this," referring to any number of violations. My simple answer is "Because the can." I've come to believe that HOA's are the most put upon form of government in the country because, unlike most of our governments, the last resort for an HOA remedy is usually civil action. Sure, most states have statutes & HOA have CC&R's, few have any teeth.

From what I have read, your Davis-Sterling Act (or is it Sterling-Davis?) offers some of the best protection for HOA homeowners in the country. While I've got you here, Does it provide for government oversights, criminal action, or is it all civil? Again, thanks for your interest, KerryL1.

If there was a transition from the old management company to the new management company, the new company probably has control of the bank accounts. If you don't pay the new company, your payment is probably not going to get credited. You have no guarantee that the old company will even transfer your payment if they receive it.

If the board is telling you they have transitioned to the new company and they want payments to go there, why would you send them to the old company? I understand you don't believe this was a valid decision, but clearly the board does. You can fight that out legally, but you need to make sure you are not getting charged late fees because of this.

I appreciate your thoughts, LoriMIS.

Because the old company has the first, and a valid contract. Why would you not sent the money to them? What's being missed her is the transition has not been validated by the Board and the Old company is still saying their contract is valid. Just because a Board says it's so, doesn't mean it rally is. There's an old saying that goes, "trust but verify," and it applies to almost anything in life. You buy a house and tell the lender you don't have any other mortgages do you think they're going to say OK, fine. Nonsense. Would you buy anything big and important without a contract. Not likely. Dealing with a Board and the Board's dealing with is homeowners should be the same way. An honest Board would not only understand that, but would gladly comply.

For me though, I want to know which contract is prevailing upfront and that's just not that difficult to do. Why doesn't the Board provide this information up front? You know the old saying, "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." This is no more than simple honesty and transparency. Your HOA experiences may be good one. Mine are 2 good and 2 bad, and the one I've been in for 7 years is bad. This just doesn't pass the smell test. Any Board in the same situation would either offer the evidence up front or gladly provide it upon request. Why would they not?

And really, LoriMIS, why would the old company continue to bill the homeowners and claim they have a contract.

Both of these contract are legal, unethical, but legal. Will the prevailing management company please stand up? I'm not even remotely concerned about fee, fines, or anything else from a Board that has been found to have substantially breached their fiduciary to its' homeowners.

Again, we're back to which one is the prevailing company. Assuming he Board is correct when there are so many warning signs, is naive.

Thanks again for you thoughts, LoriMIS.

It's The Davis-Stirling Common Interest Development Act, Civil Code sections 4000-6150.

If they fired the old company, they certainly have no authority to keep you from contacting the old company.

I keep thinking there must be SOME record of your Board voting to terminate your contract with the old MC. But in NC, such a vote would have been made in executive session? And even if in a regular board meeting, in NC these--except occasionally -- are not open to owners to attend. So...meeting minutes that show the Board voted to terminate the old-MC's contract are not available to owners? Is that right?

Do owners in NC HOAs have no rights to inspect HOA records? There, for instance, must be bank records that show your hOA now pays the monthly MC fee to the new firm, not the old MC firm.

Our new MC started with my HOA on 2/1/24, and our contract with them gives either party the right to terminate the contract with or without cause with 60-days notice. This is the same as in our ex-MC's contract. I guess your contract with your old MC contains something similar?

Terri gives a good explanation of legal methods to pursue in CA. I do recall some of your early issues with your Boards, Walt.

Corporate HOA records requests in North Carolina are enforceable only in NC's superior courts.

Personally I like the part of the NC statute that speaks to the HOA having to pay the owner's attorney fees when prevailing in a records inspection dispute. This is a lot better than many other states' laws on records inspection.

Good info, Wendy. I was hoping you'd chime in.

If you find a government or other very reputable document saying general civil can be done in NC, I would love to see it! I just did a quick search and as I have thought, NC small claims just does money stuff. I wish NC Small claims would do HOA civil. It would be a lot quicker and less expensive. The only variable then would be the judge. As we see on TV every day some judges offer different opinions on the same issues. Some do what has been called legislate from the bench, which simply means instead of interpreting the law as it's written the use what they "think" it means. A little footnote here. I'm probably one of the few people that have every successfully sued the BBB! It was an employment issue when I worked for them. Thanks for your thoughts TerriS6!

Don't short-change yourself. You might be surprised how many HOA cases go to small claims court. This IS about money. It's no different than any other bill you are forced to pay but didn't really owe. Or let's say a garage sued you for $2,000. in small claims court claiming they worked on your car. You go to court and they have to prove they worked on your car. In this case, you were billed, you paid under protest because you didn't owe the money and they have to come to court to prove you owed the money otherwise they owe you a refund. I have won several small claims on various HOA matters including assessments that were not properly billed.

The HOA broke no law in instructing owners not to call the old MC.

You might have a leg to stand on if the HOA created a rule to stop speech by an owner, or brought suit to stop speech by an owner. But the HOA has done no such thing.

To the savvier here: Yes, I know private corporations are not subject to Constitutional requirements regarding free speech. However Terri would come back with HOAs are quasi-governmental yada. And there is case law on the point when the HOA provides certain government-like services and effectively operates as a city. This is not the case at WaltH1's HOA, so I agree with the savvier here that this is another reason that free speech constitutional provisions are n/a.

Federal maybe...not state. If member contacted old company and board trued to punish, member would have case based on state constitution.

Have you requested the Minutes in a formal records request?

Is there a bylaw or state statute requirement to post the Minutes?

You want the board to comply with the governing docs and statutes. I think you should set the same standard for yourself.

Thanks again for all of you thoughts, ElleN,

First, what is AFAIC?

Makes sense. Why? Because the contract is between the corporation and the MC. AFAIC if an owner sends money to the old MC, he or she is not assured of getting it back without a battle. I see no good reason to pay the old MC when the board says pay the new MC. I see only downside paying the old MC.

Once, again, and let's face it, any other time this would be a hypothetical, but in this case its not. The Board has failed to provide on request (twice), as required by law, The legal documentation legally, mutually, terminating the contract, or proof they abided by the contract and gave 60 days notice for termination.......And, by contract, leaves our HOA liable for $26,000, on October 31, 2025, as the contract stipulates.

This thread has generated quite a bit of interest, ElleN, so I'm posting the termination terms of the old contract.

IV. TERML ATION
The Agent or the Association may tem1inate this Agreement with 60 days written notice in the following cases:
• Insufficient funds to cover expenses
• Unethical behavior or requests by Board Members
• Disregarding govemiog document or legal advice
• Unsafe conditions or harassment of any kind
• Violation or alleged violation of government regulation
• Required insurance is not maintained

The Association may terminate this Agreemeot but is responsible for payment of the remaining term of the Agreement or for 3 months of management fees whichever is greater.
Upon temiination by either party:

There is more, but it pertains to the money still held by the management company and the terms of the contract that survive the contract.

There's nothing about a "cease and desist" in this agreement and in the absence of legal termination info, this is very, very, troubling. According to the terms, it doesn't matter who ended the contract, our homeowners are on the hook, in this case, for over $26,000! We're a small, 88 units, HOA, that doesn't have a pot to pee in, the Board doesn't even know what a Special Reserve is, let alone fund one, and we can not afford any unneeded expenses!

If an owner fails to pay assessments to the new MC, the board is in its rights to start collection against the owner. Both contract are valid, of course the could.

By contrast, if owners pay assessments to the new MC, the board has no ground on which to stand to start collections. (Doh.) And if the assessment is not paid, the Board fines, then sues. You don't think which one of these legal valid contacts is first in line?

It's more than sufficient enough to justify not sending one's assessment to the old MC, AFAIC. See above.
Sorry, ElleN, if and until the first in line issue is solved, I don't think it is.

Most honest boards with the advice of competent counsel would not reveal to owners the details of certain legal disputes. They would have a fiduciary obligation to not comment on 'pending litigation.'

If you read the response above, your assertion applies to personnel matters like hiring and firing an individual property manager-employee. Things that have no direct impact on the homeowners. As mentioned above, many States' Nonprofit Acts, like NC, require making available any documentation, other than just mentioned, that has an effect on the homeowners, and to not provide this is breach of Fiduciary duty.

But you do not know whether terms have been violated that legally justify the board's termination of the contract. Example: A staff of the old MC is caught on a cell phone recording propositioning an owner with the words, "Sleep with me, and I will show on the books that you paid this month's assessment." First, the board absolutely should not disclose this allegation to owners. Second, is it legal grounds for terminating the contract? Probably. If you do not know why, ask, and I will give you legal grounds based in Fair Housing law, just for starters. Should the board tell owners why it terminated the contract? // No.// If you do not know why, ask.

ElleN, that's the crux of the problem. The Board has failed to provide the terms of the separation and this is against the law. Your statement above, goes with what I just said, a personnel issue such as that is not required to be acknowledged by the Board, the statement is comparing apple & oranges in this thread.

Aside: I said "The Board calls the shots here." They most certainly do not call all the shots all the time. I loathe promoting the false notion that Boards can do whatever they want. They cannot.

I wouldn't begin to suggest you're promoting false notions, but a Board's shot calling should be limited to the parameters of its' HOA's governing documents.

I don't think so, TerryS. I just checked again, and in NC they just do money stuff. I wished they would do other civil!

It is about money "cases where the amount of money sought in the complaint does not exceed $10,000. Your refund would fit into that. On the claim form, there is a section "other" that would explain why you are owed it.

Blah blah blah Kerry. More reading In-comprehension by you. WaltH1's earlier replies were unresponsive to my question.

Weird how everybody besides you is somehow mentally deficient. If you can't win an argument, just insult the living daylights out of your opponent.

Minutes were not referenced by me; your rudeness was. You insult everyone who doesn't agree with you. You attribute bad motives to innocent posters looking for help, frequently accusing them of lying. On a scale of 1 to 10, your credibility rating is zero.

EUREKA!....Oh My Gosh!....Be still my heart! TerriS6 You did it! From the beginning I was hoping someone would validate my possibly paying the old company, or even BETTER, give me something that might be a little outside of the box, but very, very, doable! I should feel ashamed and embarrassed, but I'm Don't because I'm sure a lot of us get stuck inside the box, and need some help getting out. Now, your your example, to me, is typical small claims stuff, but are so RIGHT ON! with how it pertains to an HOA. My wife's been a paralegal for 39 years. I told her about your idea and in the same breath, asked, if it was possible a judge could claim the dispute was between the HOA Board and the management company, and I didn't have a dog in this fight! She didn't hesitate for a second and said, more or less just like you, Yes you DO have a dog in this fight, YOUR MONEY! She's also good on CYA's saying, for support, I need to find the letter from the Board telling me to pay the old company, in the first place, and the one saying to stop paying them. This is just support
with, probably more to come, to shore up the complaint.

Now, to tell the truth, I've never really been interested in paying the old company. In the back of my mind, I was thinking LEVERAGE. The hope would be this would motivate the Board and I wouldn't pay the old company and if the did't maybe pay the old company, and of course, this would hardly solve the problem.

My hope is still the same, that with the threat of small claims, the Board will come clean, and if they don't fine, Small Claims here we come, and I've been there and won several times before!

One concern is the condo's in a rural county and there's no telling what a judge would do. A few years ago, using instructions from NC's Nonprofit Act, I took em to Superior court, going for an injunction to force them to play by the rules. I was worried when I filed that the complaint might it might not make it to adjudication on a technicality. I was close. In my one appearance in court, pro se, it became real obvious the judge didn't care for pro ses' and he seemed real chummy with the defense counsel. The motion to dismiss was granted because I had an and or of or something that wasn't exactly as name of the corporation. The judge granted the dismissal. I had sensed there might be a problem and discovered in the NC Rules of Civil Procedure, 1. That the judges in NC, are supposed to grant a little latitude, and 2. A complainant, can amend a complaint one time before a trial. This allowed me to do an end run around the dismissal, then the motion to strike came around. Being concerned about the judge, and the greater concern, it was time for me to go back to Florida, I dropped the complaint. That was several years ago, and to this day I'll occasionally have a former Board member who was PO's when I filed the complaint, saying they paid thousand to defend it and that I paid thousands to pursue it. They did pay thousands, my "thousands," according to them, was $435.00. My response to them was and is, "If you were not breaking the law, there would have been no complaint. To this day, they still break that law. It's the one in many States' Nonprofit Laws that states that HOA "must provide the member of the corporation with the names and addresses of both Directors and fellow homeowners. And, no they don't.

TerriS6, I really appreciate your help today! Now, will you share your past HOA-Small Claims experience. I would really like to know more!

Harassing them even more.