💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

LisaG18 (Michigan)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Hello,

I was previously on the board many 15 years ago and recently joined. At the first meeting I was told that the previous board agreed that the secretary and Treasurer did not pay dues and haven't in over 15 years. Is this legal and isn't it a conflict of interest for them to decide. The board with fine/lien homeowners who do not pay their dues but with not fine/lien homeowners for other violations in the bylaws i.e. crumbling cement driveway, stored rec vehicles in driveway. Located in Michigan

Thank you
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LisaG18 on 01/29/2024 10:14 AM
I was previously on the board many 15 years ago and recently joined. At the first meeting I was told that the previous board agreed that the secretary and Treasurer did not pay dues and haven't in over 15 years.
-- Be aware that officers are not necessarily directors. Are the secretary and treasurer directors as well as officers?

-- Do either the declaration or the bylaws allow the HOA to compensate the treasurer or secretary?

-- Is this a condominium? Because if it is, I want to check something in the Michigan Condo Act.

-- Always or nearly always, the declaration requires each owner to pay an assessment. The only way to waive the assessment would be by a vote of the owners to amend the declaration. Directors on their own cannot waive the assessment.

-- Would you please answer all questions asked of you here? In your response, would you please use the name of the person asking the question?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
There are times where an uneducated board decides they need compensation for being a board member. Have seen some board members think it is okay to skip paying dues. It is probably the dumbest thing to do. Dues are the HOA income!

It would be hard to place a lien or foreclosed on them because do not know when policy ends and no payments begin.

Bad idea all around. I bet your paying higher dues just to compensate for them. A HOA is only funded by it's members for it members.

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Typical statutes specify that Directors may not be paid for the performance of their duties.
Officers, may be paid if the board desires.
Keep in mind that Directors and Officers are two different positions (even if filled by the same person).

IF the board desires, they need to do it properly.

1) Collect Assessments as normal and required by the CC&Rs.
2) Write a check to the individuals for the performance of their duties.

NOTEs:
Said check is taxable.
Paying for the job indicates the individual hired is a professional and loses any volunteer protections.
If an independent contractor contract isn't made with the individuals, they could easily be considered employees.
Employees require payroll taxes, etc.
Waiving of a debt owed, is considered income by the IRS.
Depending on the amount, 1099-misc, 1099-C or a W-2 may need to be issued by the Association.
Failure to do things properly can cause an awful lot of issues for everyone if just one disgruntled member wants to report the issue to the IRS

See:

About Form 1099-C, Cancellation of Debt by the IRS

About Form 1099-MISC, Miscellaneous Information from the IRS

Independent contractor (self-employed) or employee? from the IRS

IRS 20-point Checklist for Independent Contractors

Understanding Employment Taxes from the IRS

Should HOA Board Members Be Paid? News Article

VOLUNTEER PROTECTION ACT OF 1997

No One Has Time to Volunteer for HOA Board: Can We Pay Them? From Nolo

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
If the treasurer and secretary need assistance (I've done both jobs and they can take a lot of time), hire someone as a bookkeeper (collect the mail, keep the lot ledgers, make deposits, send the disclosures as needed, etc.).

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
If the amount waived is over $600 per year, 1099s should be issued and sent to the IRS.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
LisaG18 (Michigan)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Total of 5 members: Pres, Secretary Treasurer and 2 officers

By-laws indicate Directors shall serve without any compensation.

Site Condo ( detached single family) consisting of 28 Lots.

Thank you,

LisaG18

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LisaG18 on 01/29/2024 2:04 PM

By-laws indicate Directors shall serve without any compensation.
This does not answer the question. What do the bylaws say about compensating o-f-f-i-c-e-r-s?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Typically, in the documents I've seen, documents say they can be compensated or are silent on the topic.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
The Michigan Nonprofit Corporation Act permits the board to compensate officers as long as the HOA's Articles of Incorporation do not prohibit this compensation.

As a matter of law, director duties are distinguishable from officer duties.

As others said, the manner of payment depends on the amounts paid.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 01/29/2024 2:31 PM

As others said, the manner of payment depends on the amounts paid.

The manor of payment should be by debt, not by waiving assessments.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Generally, most HOAs prohibit reimbursement for duties as a board member. If a board member was providing services ( accounting) they may be paid, but that payment should not be in the form of a fee reduction and paid by check.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858
Posted:
I do not understand how directors are different than Board of Directors. Our Board members determine which Board member will be which officer. They know they are volunteers and there is no compensation for their work. Are the officers, if different from Board members elected?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 01/31/2024 4:41 AM
I do not understand how directors are different than Board of Directors. Our Board members determine which Board member will be which officer. They know they are volunteers and there is no compensation for their work. Are the officers, if different from Board members elected?

The membership elect individuals to serve as Directors (i.e. the Board of Directors).
Directors (required by Corporate law and most, if not all, governing documents) make the decisions for the Association (should we hire people (PM, bookkeeper, etc.), who to award a contract to, do we foreclose, do we bring legal action, how to respond to x, approve policy changes, etc.).

Officers (required by Corporate law and most, if not all, governing documents) implement the decisions of the board and carry out the day to day tasks of running an association (Collect mail, track payments, make deposits, pay bills, file the taxes and annual report, sign contracts with contractors, oversee contractors, hire people, oversee work, maintain records of the Association, handle complaints, investigate violations, etc.).

Larger Associations may actually hire employees to perform many of those tasks. Self managed associations may do all of the tasks themselves. However, all Associations must have both (Directors and Officers).

Often, there simply are not enough volunteers or money to hire individuals. When this occurs (which is typically the case) the Directors appoint officers from amongst themselves. Essentially, the individuals then have two different jobs at the same company.

However, as you pointed out, many do not understand the difference between Directors and Officers. I would suspect that many who serve on their board do not understand the differences.

Therefore, when an Association pays it's Officers, and when Officers and Directors are the same individual, the perception is that the Directors are being paid to serve.
This is why it's best, if needed, to hire a bookkeeper to help the Treasurer and, if needed, to hire a PM to help the Secretary and other Officers perform their duties.
The appointed Officers are still accountable for the work to get done. They simply assigned the physical task to someone else.

Hope this helps,

Tim
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/29/2024 5:10 PM
Posted By ElleN on 01/29/2024 2:31 PM

As others said, the manner of payment depends on the amounts paid.


The manor of payment should be by debt, not by waiving assessments.
For volunteers who lawfully vote to compensate officers, AFAIC this is a bookkeeping issue. If the board does not want to (1) collect assessments from these officers, and then (2) write checks right back to them, whatever. Especially if the amount of compensation for an officer is less than $600, then I would not give a board grief about not collecting the assessments and then writing a check back.

Whatever is done should be documented so the books are properly kept and tax forms, properly completed.

If there is a legal reason not to proceed thusly, I would be interested in reading it. Because I am all for paying officers and also all for keeping the work load on directors as small as possible, to the extent all are complying with the law.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelS56 on 01/31/2024 4:41 AM
I do not understand how directors are different than Board of Directors. Our Board members determine which Board member will be which officer. They know they are volunteers and there is no compensation for their work. Are the officers, if different from Board members elected?
You have been posting here for a little over three years. I estimate that the difference between officers and directors is explained to a new HOATalk member about once a month. And yet it has not sunk in for you.

If this concept (officers v. directors) is so difficult for volunteer HOA/COA directors, legislators should imagine how volunteers must routinely struggle with interpreting and applying all manner of other covenants and statutes.

For god's sake, enough. Directors and officers should both be paid. All directors and officers must receive training and pass a standards test.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 01/31/2024 8:25 AM

If there is a legal reason not to proceed thusly, I would be interested in reading it. Because I am all for paying officers and also all for keeping the work load on directors as small as possible, to the extent all are complying with the law.

See:

BEGINNER’S GUIDE TO HOA BOARDS OF DIRECTORS DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES from a CPA firm.
Scroll down to assessment collection, which says (in part):

Therefore, the board has a duty to take every reasonable action to collect the assessments. The board may not waive or excuse, or otherwise forbear the payment of assessments.

President Doesn't Pay HOA Assessments; Who Knows for How Long? This 2016 article from HOALeader mentions laws about compensation (scroll to Could This Be Pay? section).

Sections from that article include:

"But it isn't 'in kind.' You can't say instead of paying your $200 dues, you're getting your dues free. There has to be an exchange of checks."

"You have to pay assessments like everybody else," says Cheifetz." If you agree on an amount to be paid as compensation, you still have to pay your assessments, and the HOA should issue you a check for your work. "

"Condo laws—and I'm sure the declaration and bylaws—are pretty clear that all owners, whether officers or directors or not, are obligated to pay their share of assessments."

DUTY TO PAY ASSESSMENTS From Davis-Stirling site
This site quotes CA law:

Personal Debt of Owner. "A regular or special assessment and any late charges, reasonable fees and costs of collection, reasonable attorney’s fees, if any, and interest, if any..., shall be a debt of the owner of the separate interest at the time the assessment or other sums are levied." (Civ. Code § 5650(a).)

The site also reference PARK PLACE ESTATES HOMEOWNERS ASSN. v. NABER Although the case is not a direct correlation to waiving assessments, Footnote 5 (FN 5) cites other cases and specifies:

While this issue has never been addressed in a reported decision in California, courts in other states have refused to permit an owner to withhold payment of lawfully assessed common area charges by asserting an offset right against those charges.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
TimB4, thank you for the citations.

I too ran into chatter about "offsets" not being allowed. But I am not sure what I was proposing denotes an offset.

I agree your way is best practices.

I am saying that if the board voted properly and lawfully to compensate officers, and documentation was provided in the HOA books of the correct credits and debits to the officer's account, then I would not care.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 01/31/2024 8:54 AM

For god's sake, enough. Directors and officers should both be paid. All directors and officers must receive training and pass a standards test.

I agree that it would be excellent for training to be provided, may even go with the need to pass a standards test.
Information is available IF individuals desire to look for it.
Heck, FL enacted a law about understanding the governing documents or get training - based on questions the forum gets from FL association members, I don't think it did any good (other then make the politicians feel good about themselves for trying to do something).

Concerning compensation, I disagree (and I essentially had a part time job (20+ hours a month) as Treasurer in my previous association).
You may get individuals who simply want the job for the pay.
You may get individuals, once they have the job and are paid, may do anything to keep said job/pay.
Being paid and trained is zero guarantee that things will be done correctly (look at the complaints this forum has seen concerning MC and PM).
Being paid does have the individual lose some protections (your a professional, you should have known).

Personally, I wouldn't serve in an Association where Directors & Officers were paid and I would avoid buying in such an Association.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/31/2024 9:53 AM
Being paid and trained is zero guarantee that things will be done correctly (look at the complaints this forum has seen concerning MC and PM).
The above certainly leapt out at me.

True.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Technically on paper, they have not paid dues in 15 years..........

If allowed by the bylaws/articles to reimburse officers they should have paid the dues and the HOA should have paid the board members by check.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here