Non owner spouse attending board meetings

Started by RichardS32 • 17 replies • 366 views

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RichardS32 (Illinois)
Posts: 5

Posted:

At our last scheduled meeting just prior to it's start. an assoc. member and her husband entered. At the time only persons present our 2 members (we have a vacant seat) and the couple I just mentioned. The wife mentioned that her husband had tested positive for Covid and that he was on day 5 of self isolation and they would follow CDC guidelines. I immediately asked him to leave, they refused, I true to my Italian heritage had a few minutes off being out of control with my language and my volume of speech, so be it. I asked him again, i never asked her to leave. once again they refused. I canceled the meeting and left the area and did the board meeting. I immediately sent an email to all unit owners, to inform them of the meeting be canceled and the reason why. 2 weeks later, I receive at my door a letter from the couples attorney, a demand letter to stop and cease. (I haven't spoke to this couple since the incident) it is also demanding I retract the email and make an open apology within 10 days or a defamation suit will follow. The attorney claims that I had no knowledge of the husband health status and to mark a person with a highly contagious potentially deadly is reckless blah blah blah and it will be the biggest defamation case seen in Illinois for the entire year. This is not my first encounter with this attorney and his clients, it is the 3rd with a 4 month period. I squashed them the insects they are. I am waiting to the 10th day to respond and there will not be any thing close to apology. I as president was up holding my obligations by sending the email to all members, because all members were invited to the board meeting and could have been in route, parking or walking up and entering a room that contained a person that was positive for Covid/safety and welfare of the association (covered). The only knowledge I have of this persons health is was derived from his wife in front of him, I also have a recording of her stating so. I don't think she provided her attorney with the recording. the recording also reveals her asking me if it is OK to record, I answer Yes, who cares. The wife and I loath each other, it's well known. Most people that know here loath her. Now , when I email the letter to the assoc. attorney along with the recording and asked how I should proceed. To my surprise, the attorney claims that defamation is a civil claim and they can of no assistance and will not comment further. Yeah right- You're going answer my questions. I was on board time, It was a board function on association property, the email was emailed from the boards email address to members of the association, how in the hell is this not an association issue and your gonna leave me hanging by myself (which really isn't a problem) it's the point that angers me. I think the association is wrong in their decision. I believe not certain though that cover the 4 defenses of defamation cases Absolute Privilege, qualified Privilege, Truth and loathsome <- sarcastic humor. Letter also states they followed CDC guidelines: 5 days of self isolation does not mean go to a public meeting that could have 25 people at on day 5. So here is it with no legal counsel for an incident that happened during my fiduciary obligation of a position that is volunteer basis with no compensation for a group of property owners that could careless about the workings of the association because they are merely land milking investors. I will not apology the audacity of these people they want me to apology (this just came to mind) 8 years ago, the wife unmarried them, came to my doors on her knees screaming fire, I grab the fire extinguisher and put out a 2 alarm fire, it took 3 times of entering the unit to extinguish the fire the smoke was overwhelming (I did for my dogs), her bed was on fire, extension cords under the mattress she wont take responsibility it was the arc that caused the fire nor Has she said "THANK YOU TO ME" serious. NO BS. I am so angry right now. I am not seeing something? I am in the wrong? Could they actually have a defamation case that has a possibility of winning. I am seeking new legal counsel for the association. I am also contacting a few law firms to see if the attorney could be held for misrepresentation, the declarations state the board members can not file suit or I would file suit on the couple as well as there is much more that has happened that has led me to the point, I mean a lot 20 30 times the size of this post in the last 6 months. Is this post too long? am a newbie.

RichardS32 (Illinois)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Oh, The main question. The day before I received the attorneys letter, I gave the couple a notice to the reschedule of the meeting and being the nice and fair person I am, said the board recognizes non owner spouses and welcome them the board, but I want to retract that absolutely not allow non owner spouses especially this guy to attend board meeting. Can I retract it and informed that the board needs to vote on the matter?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Oh boy where to start. You were NOT acting on the board's behalf or on the HOA once you sent out that email disclosing the Covid status of the attendee. That would had to been approved by the board to have been sent. The lawyer is correct this will be a CIVIL lawsuit most likely against you as an individual. The HOA should be protected by their insurance for liability issues. Which people are not going to be happy if you pull that angle with the insurance.

If your HOA allows for OPEN meetings, it doesn't necessarily mean you can't allow certain members in attending. It would be nice let me tell you. In our HOA we even let Renters attend although we told them upfront they had NO voting power at all. So their opinions or contributions were not recognized although appreciated. We did have some renters who were basically full time residents more so than the landlords. Some would attend on their landlord's behalf. All I can offer on that is to announce you can attend but you have no voting power or influence as a non-member.

Believe me, I've had some people wanted to NOT attend meetings that did not like. However, as an adult with adult responsibilities my personal opinion had to be put on the back burner. They were a member and no matter how you sliced it, you can't just restrict them unless by legal restraining order by a court.

There are "HIPPA" laws in play here. Your not supposed to reveal one's health status. When covid first went around at work, we were NOT allowed to know whom tested positive. We were allowed to know if we were EXPOSED. Your email and response should have been that people attending the meeting were at risk of being EXPOSED to Covid. You can't tell them whom.

Right now I just tested positive for COVID 2 - 3 weeks ago. Got sick on way home from work. Tested myself positive. Could not return to work. Found out that my company handed out COVID tests because of my positive result due to exposure. They gave them to the areas I was in. Turns out 5 more people tested positive. Even though I may not been "Patient 0" it does look like I was the source of COVID. I probably am not the one that brought it in, just the one who tested first. I openly told people I had it but others don't like it. Have one in my office clearly sick still coming into work. Can't say a word even though I suspect has covid.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

1) non-members have no right to attend a meeting. You could have denied his attendance for that reason alone.
2) you should not have mentioned his/her names in a message to members or the reason for meeting cancellation
3) normally this could easily be a defamation case; however because he is not a member, he has no standing to sue the association but his wife does if her name was mentioned.
4) there's no way to prove how one person gets Covid from another person, there are only guesses

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

I would do as the attorney asks and issue the apology then review your policy about only members attending meetings and protocol for attending meetings when possibly sick - please stay home.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

HIPAA only applies to "covered entities" - eg., health plans and most health care providers. It doesn't apply to random blabbermouths. These folks can run afoul of other laws and various unpleasant consequences, though.

Defamation per se applies to statements that tend to expose the plaintiff to public hatred, contempt, ridicule, aversion, or disgrace, and to induce an evil opinion of him in the minds of right-thinking persons and deprive him of their friendly intercourse or society. Back in the day, accusations that someone had a "loathsome disease" would fall into that category, but they weren't talking about Covid. Calling someone a "selfish, inconsiderate asshat" is pretty mild given the current level of public discourse.

I agree that there was no need to mention the person by name, only that the meeting had to be canceled because of illness. With all of the diseases circulating right now, something like that would not be surprising.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I agree Cathy. It should have left it like that so at my workplace. They let people know they were exposed to a virus or contagion. They can not isolate it to a name or specific person. This could be slander but if it is true fact then that goes out the window if it is true.

I have a young co worker. He tested positive a few days after me. Due to weather we could not drive to work. Spent whole time in quarantine. Which CDC says is 5 days and then additional 5 days wearing mask or isolated. We require a negative test to return. My co worker text me to tell me he is coming in. I am like did you test negative? He was like am I supposed to? Ugh...

My first Covid experience was when first but. I was helping out first official case. Did not know it at the time. Plus ot wearing a mask as told not to. I later found out person name. We were not allowed to know even when direct contact. Just had to be sent home to quarantine and test.

Former HOA President

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

?

I assume you mean the board meeting was cancelled.

As far as I am concerned, you were 100% in the right to cancel the board meeting and leave the area. It is a rare instance where I think a HOA president does not need board approval to take action. This was one of them. Safety is paramount.

Quote:

Posted By RichardS32 on 01/25/2024 12:31 AM
I immediately sent an email to all unit owners, to inform them of the meeting be canceled and the reason why. The couple's attorney is now claiming defamation yada and is threatening suit.

It appears you used the name of the owner who was in quarantine.

Per your HOA's insurance policy and from experience, you need to let your HOA's insurer know of this threat immediately. It is entirely possible the insurer will get involved, in a good way, at least for the short run. The insurer might even provide an attorney.

In the future, I advise not using the names of owners in an email blast. I agree ultimately a court might find you did not violate any law. The problem is that people can sue for any reason; make your life and the HOA miserable; extracting a pound of flesh via the extraordinarily expensive legal process and fulfilling insurance obligations.

If things like this happen often enough, expect your HOA's insurance premiums to go up. Ya gotta get a grip on your temper. Why? Because it can cost money. I believe the best directors speak the language of just the facts, and set emotion aside. It takes practice.

You do in fact have a fiduciary duty to minimize expenses to the HOA.

Please report back what the insurer says. Subsequently I might have more to say about how to proceed.

As for the HOA attorney saying he/she does not want to deal with a defamation claim, this is entirely legally appropriate. It is becoming common for HOA attorneys to tell boards that for certain legal issues, the board needs a specialist. Let this matter (about the HOA attorney telling you to pound sand) go.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

For me, your post is waaaay too long, Richard32. If you'd have taken a quick look at other posts, you'd see that. In addition, your lack of paragraphs makes reading a real chore.

So I only read the end--sorta skimmed the rest. What caught my eye is that you seem to be seeking a new attorney for your HOA, but do you have Board approval to do this?? I get the feeling that you believe that the board president has a lot more authority than they should. Adjourning a meeting is usually done with a motion--it is not the president's sole decision. Sure it would've made the meeting last 2 more seconds, but, it's good to respect your fellow board members.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/25/2024 10:05 AM
Adjourning a meeting is usually done with a motion--it is not the president's sole decision. Sure it would've made the meeting last 2 more seconds, but, it's good to respect your fellow board members.

The president is completely within his/her authority to adjourn a meeting when there's an imminent risk to the physical safety of others.

RichardS32 (Illinois)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Thank you for the insight; I am not infringing on unit owners/members rights of attending meetings. The person that put the entire association in harms way with a virus that has killed to date 6,973,149 did so knowingly. He is the spouse of an unit owner and is not considered a legal unit owner on any documents or in the eyes of his spouse as so stated in an email from her, "he is merely next to kin when it comes to the ownership of my condo". Poor guy! I am literally LOL. When they first got married, i saw him doing laundry and told him "once you start that it will never stop" in the past 2 years I haven't seen her at all with a basket of clothes.

Since I posted this thread, I have spoken with a few attorneys that specialize in defamation, they haven't a leg to stand on and HIPA laws go out the window when the wife made me privy to the fact. In fact I probably could countersue but in the declarations as a board member I am not permitted to file suit on the members.

I mentioned the name with the knowledge that it could be a privacy issue, I did so as to warn others in the community of the lack of concern from these individuals towards anyone else. As far as laws to protect someone's identity for certain conditions that if publicly known may cause them some type of hardship I understand the importance of compliances with that for the innocent to be protect not for the blatantly reckless ones that do things as such thinking they are protected, that showed no regard for my health and put my life at risk, why should they be protected, if anything they should be held accountable and prosecuted. This is a whole entire different subject. so I will end with this. The mindset of society and local governments is that law abiding citizens can't or shouldn't protect themselves against attacks even in our homes. Let's face it, our governments doesn't always get it right and we as humans need to think for ourselves, our families and do what is needed to protect now and from future attacks. I consider what his individual did has an attack on myself as well as the entire association.

RichardS32 (Illinois)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Every board position as equal power. I do nothing with consent from other board members, attorneys and before I proceed I make sure it is within the realm of legalities or at least very close to. It won't be long before, we are going to be required to have a meeting in order to have a meeting or I need to have a meeting in order to change a light bulb.

RichardS32 (Illinois)
Posts: 5

Posted:

typo** I do nothing without**

I don't know where the edit button is.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

You were right to ask them to leave.
You were right to cancel the meeting.
You had a responsibility to notify those who physically present that they may have been exposed to covid.
You had a responsibility to announce that the meeting was cancelled.
You had a responsibility to say why but to protect privacy you should have simply said due to illness.

You were WRONG to identify the individual.
You were WRONG to identify the individual to all members.

YOU owe the individual an apology for breaking their privacy.

THEY, in my opinion should give you an apology for possible exposure - HOWEVER, they did say that they were following CDC guidelines.
Per CDC Guidelines (doesn't matter if you agree with it or not)

THEY were doing the right thing in their eyes.

Again, you were right/fine with asking them to leave.
Again, you were right/fine with cancelling the meeting.

You were WRONG to identify the individual.
You were WRONG to identify the individual to all members.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

There are not many laws out there in regards to COVID except for HIPA. It is not quite up there with a Veneril Disease. Like you can not be charged like knowingly spreading HIV. That is not airborne but skin contact.

You should never have put their name in the narrative. Simply have stated possible exposure. May want to be tested.

Now cancelling the meeting expressly because of this person reads wrong. Again I am not saying wrong for doing so if they did not leave. The HOA could give masks out. A simple "hey we may have an exposure risk. We can social distance 6 feet and or wear masks. Otherwise would you like to vote to adjourn?" Mind you it is not just the President call in cancelling. The other board members must vote as well.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

The only other advice I have is - PICK YOUR BATTLES.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardS32 on 01/25/2024 12:31 AM
At our last scheduled meeting just prior to it's start. an assoc. member and her husband entered. At the time only persons present our 2 members (we have a vacant seat) and the couple I just mentioned. The wife mentioned that her husband had tested positive for Covid and that he was on day 5 of self isolation and they would follow CDC guidelines. I immediately asked him to leave, they refused, I true to my Italian heritage had a few minutes off being out of control with my language and my volume of speech, so be it. I asked him again, i never asked her to leave. once again they refused. I canceled the meeting and left the area and did the board meeting. I immediately sent an email to all unit owners, to inform them of the meeting be canceled and the reason why. 2 weeks later, I receive at my door a letter from the couples attorney, a demand letter to stop and cease. (I haven't spoke to this couple since the incident) it is also demanding I retract the email and make an open apology within 10 days or a defamation suit will follow. The attorney claims that I had no knowledge of the husband health status and to mark a person with a highly contagious potentially deadly is reckless blah blah blah and it will be the biggest defamation case seen in Illinois for the entire year. This is not my first encounter with this attorney and his clients, it is the 3rd with a 4 month period. I squashed them the insects they are. I am waiting to the 10th day to respond and there will not be any thing close to apology. I as president was up holding my obligations by sending the email to all members, because all members were invited to the board meeting and could have been in route, parking or walking up and entering a room that contained a person that was positive for Covid/safety and welfare of the association (covered). The only knowledge I have of this persons health is was derived from his wife in front of him, I also have a recording of her stating so. I don't think she provided her attorney with the recording. the recording also reveals her asking me if it is OK to record, I answer Yes, who cares. The wife and I loath each other, it's well known. Most people that know here loath her. Now , when I email the letter to the assoc. attorney along with the recording and asked how I should proceed. To my surprise, the attorney claims that defamation is a civil claim and they can of no assistance and will not comment further. Yeah right- You're going answer my questions. I was on board time, It was a board function on association property, the email was emailed from the boards email address to members of the association, how in the hell is this not an association issue and your gonna leave me hanging by myself (which really isn't a problem) it's the point that angers me. I think the association is wrong in their decision. I believe not certain though that cover the 4 defenses of defamation cases Absolute Privilege, qualified Privilege, Truth and loathsome <- sarcastic humor. Letter also states they followed CDC guidelines: 5 days of self isolation does not mean go to a public meeting that could have 25 people at on day 5. So here is it with no legal counsel for an incident that happened during my fiduciary obligation of a position that is volunteer basis with no compensation for a group of property owners that could careless about the workings of the association because they are merely land milking investors. I will not apology the audacity of these people they want me to apology (this just came to mind) 8 years ago, the wife unmarried them, came to my doors on her knees screaming fire, I grab the fire extinguisher and put out a 2 alarm fire, it took 3 times of entering the unit to extinguish the fire the smoke was overwhelming (I did for my dogs), her bed was on fire, extension cords under the mattress she wont take responsibility it was the arc that caused the fire nor Has she said "THANK YOU TO ME" serious. NO BS. I am so angry right now. I am not seeing something? I am in the wrong? Could they actually have a defamation case that has a possibility of winning. I am seeking new legal counsel for the association. I am also contacting a few law firms to see if the attorney could be held for misrepresentation, the declarations state the board members can not file suit or I would file suit on the couple as well as there is much more that has happened that has led me to the point, I mean a lot 20 30 times the size of this post in the last 6 months. Is this post too long? am a newbie.

Yes your post is too long. I sense your frustration but you really need to control your anger. An angry person that lets it all hang out does not make for a good board member. It exacerbates the situation. An owner who brings along a nonowner spouse to the meeting would not be something to make a big issue about. Sending out health information to all members by e-mail was a huge mistake.

You certainly have a right to be annoyed but your anger seems a bit over the top. Just issue an apology and move on. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride for your own sanity.

JohnP47 (Washington)
Posts: 31

Posted:

Disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer.
Counter-disclaimer: I can read with the best of them.

HIPAA - the guidance is quite specific :: Most entities are NOT included in HIPAA restrictions. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/special/emergency/final_hipaa_guide_law_enforcement.pdf

Openness - are board meetings open meetings? Some states require it, even if not required it's a great practice.

Records and minutes - Unless in closed executive session, potentially everything that happened or is said can become part of the minutes. Minutes are public documents. Potentially, at an open meeting, all of the owners might have attended and witnessed the interactions themselves. This is an angle for understanding why HIPAA doesn't apply.

Board meeting etiquette - this can be read both ways. That they voluntarily disclosed s COVID episode, understanding there are general and well publicized measures to protect the public from contagion, means they should have been ready for a request for a recent COVID test, wearing a mask, keeping distance, or to possibly leave given the latency period for spreading the virus. Form their side, they could also have offered that the husband sit at a distance and wear a mask.

Procedural - Any board member (even the chair) might have made a "Motion to Adjourn" for safety reasons to a later time so everyone and the husband could attend without worries about contagion.
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