Power of Attorney

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

The property is in New Jersey.

I have a unit owned as an investment property by two parties, owned Joint Tenancy, by two parties related by marriage. They are not parent/child, siblings, or partners.

One of the owners owns another unit also. He is married, but owns both units as investment properties, and his wife is not on the deed of either unit, nor is she listed on any documents. She was in politics and has publicly claimed that she holds no ownership rights. She is also in real estate salesperson.

She acquired a Power of Attorney for her husband's partner for the one unit and is insisting on membership rights. Her husband, when asked, was both unaware of the POA, and has not given her his rights. If I allow the POA to stand, then it affects the other owner's rights, such as voting, etc.

Another cunundrum is that she sends threatening emails regularly, shows up at meetings, and insists on being provided documents that are only for membership, and continues to act like a member, but is exceptionally rude and berates the board and myself.

My question is this:

what are the liabilities if I honor the POA, and then her husband and her grandson, the actual owners, want to exercise their membership rights? Only one party is permitted to vote.

also, we rent out the clubhouse for events and classes, and hold leases and insurance for the renters, she is demanding to have copies of the leases and insurances. Both the Board and management have these documents in house and our leases have been vetted legally.

Am I obligated to provide her with these documents?

In NJ the privacy policies and laws are very strict.

Thank you.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MicheleC3 on 01/22/2024 12:29 PM
I have a unit owned as an investment property

Do you mean your association has a unit owned by two parties, et cetera?

Or do you have an ownership interest in this unit?

Quote:

Posted By MicheleC3 on 01/22/2024 12:29 PM
by two parties, owned Joint Tenancy, by two parties related by marriage. They are not parent/child, siblings, or partners.

I will assume you mean the two parties are not married and are not related by blood.

Quote:

Posted By MicheleC3 on 01/22/2024 12:29 PM
One of the owners owns another unit also. He is married, but owns both units as investment properties, and his wife is not on the deed of either unit, nor is she listed on any documents. [The wife] was in politics and has publicly claimed that she holds no ownership rights. [The wife] is also in real estate salesperson.

[The wife] acquired a Power of Attorney for her husband's partner for the one unit and is insisting on membership rights.

Huh? I think you should use fictitious names. I cannot follow what is going on here.

Otherwise, you do not honor the POA. Either the board does or it does not.

Are you on the board?

Re-post and try to understand that the use of pronouns makes this hard to follow. Use fictitious names, please. Be clear about who is married to whom.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Also, anyone presenting, to the HOA, him/herself as POA is legally obligated to provide the legal papers stating he/she is POA to the HOA. The HOA should review the POA papers to see if the POA appears to be legitimate.

Banks routinely, thoroughly question POA papers. So should the HOA. Get advice from the HOA attorney on this point.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Mich

Let me get this straight. Person A jointly owns a unit with Person B. Person B gave their POA to Person C and now Person C is demanding to see documents privy to members. Do I have this straight? Relationships and owning other units is not part of this scenario.

Thus the bottom line question is does a POA give the person all the rights of an owner?

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

The property is in New Jersey.

I am a manager and have a unit owned as an investment property by two parties, Sam and Joe, owned Joint Tenancy, by both parties related by marriage. Joe is Joan's grandson from a previous marriage.

Sam and Joe are not parent/child, siblings, or partners. This is important in NJ.

One of the owners, Sam, owns another investment unit by himself.

Sam is married to Joan, but owns both units as investment properties, and Joan, his wife, is not on the deed of neither unit, nor is she listed on any documents.

Joan was in politics and has publicly claimed that she holds no ownership rights. She is also a real estate salesperson.

Joan acquired a Power of Attorney for Joe, for unit he owns with Sam.

Joan is insisting on membership rights. Her husband, Sam, when asked about it, was both unaware of the POA, and has not given Joan his membership rights.

If I allow the POA issued to Joan by Joe, to stand, then it affects the Sam's owner rights, such as voting, etc.

Another conundrum is that Joan sends threatening emails regularly, shows up at meetings, and insists on being provided documents that are only for membership, and continues to act like a member, but is exceptionally rude and berates the board and myself.

My question is this:

what are the liabilities if I honor the POA Joan has for Joe, and then Sam or Joe, the actual owners, want to exercise their membership rights? Only one party is permitted to vote, etc.

also, we rent out the clubhouse for events and classes, and hold leases and insurance for the renters, Joan is demanding to have copies of the leases and renter's insurances. Both the Board and management have these documents in house and the leases have been vetted legally.

Am I obligated to provide her with these documents?

In NJ the privacy policies and laws are very strict.

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

The property is in New Jersey.

I am a manager and have a unit owned as an investment property by two parties, Sam and Joe, owned Joint Tenancy, by both parties related by marriage. Joe is Joan's grandson from a previous marriage.

Sam and Joe are not parent/child, siblings, or partners. This is important in NJ.

One of the owners, Sam, owns another investment unit by himself.

Sam is married to Joan, but owns both units as investment properties, and Joan, his wife, is not on the deed of neither unit, nor is she listed on any documents.

Joan was in politics and has publicly claimed that she holds no ownership rights. She is also a real estate salesperson.

Joan acquired a Power of Attorney for Joe, for unit he owns with Sam.

Joan is insisting on membership rights. Her husband, Sam, when asked about it, was both unaware of the POA, and has not given Joan his membership rights.

If I allow the POA issued to Joan by Joe, to stand, then it affects the Sam's owner rights, such as voting, etc.

Another conundrum is that Joan sends threatening emails regularly, shows up at meetings, and insists on being provided documents that are only for membership, and continues to act like a member, but is exceptionally rude and berates the board and myself.

My question is this:

what are the liabilities if I honor the POA Joan has for Joe, and then Sam or Joe, the actual owners, want to exercise their membership rights? Only one party is permitted to vote, etc.

also, we rent out the clubhouse for events and classes, and hold leases and insurance for the renters, Joan is demanding to have copies of the leases and renter's insurances. Both the Board and management have these documents in house and the leases have been vetted legally.

Am I obligated to provide her with these documents?

In NJ the privacy policies and laws are very strict.

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

That is correct.

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

That is correct.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

I advise seeing an attorney. For now I am sharing my experience with POAs (having had them and been faced with them):

First, the co-owners of any one unit have to decide among themselves how any given ballot will be cast. It is not management's or the board's job to referee co-owners of a unit. If the two co-owners cannot decide how to vote, then they lose their vote. The two co-owners should submit something in writing saying who has the authority to cast a ballot in any given election.

Second, get a copy of the POA papers and confirm that Joan satisfies any requirements in the paperwork for being POA. E.g. does Joe have to be deemed unfit by a doctor before Joan can serve as his POA? Does the POA state Joan shall exercise POA on all financial matters?

Third, if Joan lawfully holds POA for Joe at this time, then records requests by her, that otherwise meet the requirements of the governing docs and NJ statutes, should be honored, AFAIC. This is because she needs to be properly informed to make voting decisions and/or confer with the co-owner about how to vote. She violates her fiduciary duty to Joe by not being informed when making voting decisions.

Fourth, Joan as POA has only limited membership rights. She can participate in voting with the co-owner. She is entitled to records as if she were a member. But she cannot use the swimming pool or other amenities.

Fifth, the threatening emails should be turned over to the board. Legal action should be considered. If you fear for your safety, instantly contact the police and make a report.

Sixth, owners (or their POA) have a right to berate the board and management. If this crosses the line to harassment, then ask the HOA attorney to step in.

Seventh, owners (or their POA) do not have a right to interrupt board meetings. If you want advice on crowd management at board meetings ask.

Thank you for re-posting using fictitious names.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

What a bunch of crap. Your board needs to take some control

A. The board needs to establish a written policy that multiple owners not related by marriage are partnerships.

B. No single partnership member has the power to do anything.

C. POA must be dated, signed by all the partners, notarized and provide an expiration date not to exceed 1 year and any time names change on the deed.

C. Absent a POA, a partnership must name an agent on a form provided by the HOA. The form must contain notarized signatures and expire in 1 year or any time there is a change to the names on the deed. The agent is the only person entitled to vote at HOA meetings.

D. Records will be sent to and at the request of the agent or POA on record.

.

NA1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 190

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 01/22/2024 1:56 PM
I advise seeing an attorney. For now I am sharing my experience with POAs (having had them and been faced with them):

First, the co-owners of any one unit have to decide among themselves how any given ballot will be cast. It is not management's or the board's job to referee co-owners of a unit. If the two co-owners cannot decide how to vote, then they lose their vote. The two co-owners should submit something in writing saying who has the authority to cast a ballot in any given election.

Second, get a copy of the POA papers and confirm that Joan satisfies any requirements in the paperwork for being POA. E.g. does Joe have to be deemed unfit by a doctor before Joan can serve as his POA? Does the POA state Joan shall exercise POA on all financial matters?

Third, if Joan lawfully holds POA for Joe at this time, then records requests by her, that otherwise meet the requirements of the governing docs and NJ statutes, should be honored, AFAIC. This is because she needs to be properly informed to make voting decisions and/or confer with the co-owner about how to vote. She violates her fiduciary duty to Joe by not being informed when making voting decisions.

Fourth, Joan as POA has only limited membership rights. She can participate in voting with the co-owner. She is entitled to records as if she were a member. But she cannot use the swimming pool or other amenities.

Fifth, the threatening emails should be turned over to the board. Legal action should be considered. If you fear for your safety, instantly contact the police and make a report.

Sixth, owners (or their POA) have a right to berate the board and management. If this crosses the line to harassment, then ask the HOA attorney to step in.

Seventh, owners (or their POA) do not have a right to interrupt board meetings. If you want advice on crowd management at board meetings ask.

Thank you for re-posting using fictitious names.

all of this, and you *really* need a lawyer.

Joe's *partner* gave Joan a POA which allows her the rights it specifies. It is not a POA on Joe's share, right?

If I have missed something and it is on Joe's share, and he is unaware, then the rules here vary widely by state and document but an involuntary granting of someone's rights usually requires adjudication and so you would want to see certified evidence of that too.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Funny story. We had a husband ad wife going thru a divorce. They both showed up a our Annual Meeting claiming they were the voting owner. Both names were on the deed. We asked them to step outside and decide. We could see them arguing then they both left.

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Thank you very much for your answers.

MicheleC3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Thank you very much for your answers.