💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Does anyone have any sample policy or resolutions about when board members can use an attorney?

I'd like our HOA's policy to be we almost never use an attourney and when we do all board members should be in unanimous agreement, or something similar. I'd like it to have language that all board members must have access to everything discussed or done with an attourney and banning NDA and attourney privlege BS. Especially if it pits one board member against another.

It just seems like I've read tooo many horror stories of one rogue board member racking up ungodly amounts of lawyer fees to save their own ass or satisfy thier own ego, while the rest of the HOA suffers.

vis ta vie
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
An HOA board is not made up of HOA law experts and you need a method for board members to get basic HOA questions answered without breaking the bank.

My Association pays a $600 annual retainer to a law firm that specializes in Representing HOAs. Any board member may call and get discuss HOA issues (limited to 15 minutes) as often as they like, has assess to quarterly online board member training, access to online articles addressing common HOA issues and received a newsletter containing current HOA issues.

Additionally the law firm has the HOA’s collection policy and is authorized to initiate collections. They receive monthly statements on delinquencies. Once a member reaches the prescribed level, the law firm automatically begins collections and foreclosure as provided in the Board approved policy. Fees for this service is billed to the home owner.

The Board then approves billable attorney services such as document review, enforcement actions, and conference meetings with staff attorney.as needed.

Even if you don’t have access to this type of law firm, you can negotiate something like this individually with a local attorney.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 01/21/2024 7:32 PM
An HOA board is not made up of HOA law experts and you need a method for board members to get basic HOA questions answered without breaking the bank.

My Association pays a $600 annual retainer to a law firm that specializes in Representing HOAs. Any board member may call and get discuss HOA issues (limited to 15 minutes) as often as they like, has assess to quarterly online board member training, access to online articles addressing common HOA issues and received a newsletter containing current HOA issues.

Additionally the law firm has the HOA’s collection policy and is authorized to initiate collections. They receive monthly statements on delinquencies. Once a member reaches the prescribed level, the law firm automatically begins collections and foreclosure as provided in the Board approved policy. Fees for this service is billed to the home owner.

The Board then approves billable attorney services such as document review, enforcement actions, and conference meetings with staff attorney.as needed.

Even if you don’t have access to this type of law firm, you can negotiate something like this individually with a local attorney.

so how does your board prevent a board member from racking up 45 min worth of time? the attourney just cuts the call short after 15 min? 600$ is "cheap" obviously they make up for it in foreclosure fees billed to the owner My point is how do you prevent one board member from racking up attourney fees?
I'll call around and see if there is anythign like that. I know prepaid legal has a similar system for $40/month. The problem is even when I called a really good HOA lawyer, I got assigned some law firm partner who was clueless on HOA laws.

vis ta vie
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
It has never been a problem, but I also don’t have a nit wit on the board.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Here is the kind of attorneys you are looking for.

https://communityassociations.law/
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I dont know if our board has changed it since I stepped down, but only one person was designated as the contact, usually an officer. When I was treasurer, I did the bulk of the contact because we had a bunch of delinquencies. Our firm also has a online client portal, so any board member could access it and see what was going on. Any attorney contact had to be discussed and approved via a board vote before contact and the response was sent to everyone via email or listed on out monthly management report,nwhich made up a huge part of our board meeting.

Like Dean's community, we had a certain number of hours every year that we could use to ask questions (we also have our attorney on retainer). That's why attorney contact had to be pre-approved because those hours add up quickly and we didn't like to use them on issues people should have sense enough to figure out on their own (e.g. read the documents).

In your case, I'd start with who was eating up all the time and ask what prompted the contact - if the question concerned something in the documents, why not bring that question to the board meeting so everyone can discuss it instead of trying to one-up another board member? You should be getting an itemized bill indicating how much of the retainer hours (we'll call them that for now) were used, and from there who made the phone call, email, fax, etc.

It may be you'll have to forbid that person from making any more contact and tell the attorney that any question from this person or persons should be billable to them for the remainder of the year. This decision should be made in executive session since this concerns board member conduct.

Our attorney would also meet with the board once or twice a year where we could ask general questions on other association topics, so people could save their questions for that. I'd gave another meeting with the attorney to discuss all the delinquencies and develop a strategy to approach each of them, starting with the more obnoxious ones. That usually saved a lot of time from asking questions.

So, start with taking a look at what prompted the attorney contact. Maybe what you really need is a board member handbook that would list general policy and procedures for a variety of topics instead of reinventing the wheel every time.

Education is also key, which is why I'm always stressing board member education after they join (e.g. CAI's board member toolkit) and perhaps a few specific topics every year for continuing education, such as reserve studies, especially if you're commissioning one this year. You will find as people become more familiar with their community's issues,, they should become more thoughtful in how to address them and you won't have to rush to an attorney every time. By the way,, I believe CAI has sone materials on working with association attorneys, which could be a foundation for your policy.

This is why I said in another one of your conversations that people catch on to HOA board membership faster than others, so you can't assume everyone will do it in a year or six months. They nay never be capable of buying a clue. You have to be willing to put in the work and if a person finds he/she doesn't have the time or willingness to do it, that person should do something else and leave board membership to thoss willing to do do.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I used lawyers as a tool like hiring an electrician to change a light bulb. Never needed one on retainer. We needed a lawyer to file a lien or foreclosure. We hired one to change our HOA documents. Other than that we didn't really need one. Threats of lawsuits were never that much of a concern. More laughable than anything else. Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. You can either decide to accept that consequence and sue, or work for a solution. No one sued.

Our policy was that only one board member talked to the lawyer after the board agreed. That usually fell on the President's shoulders. (Me). It saved expense because a lawyer will charge you for email, text, call back, and calls. Make sure you know what they charge for communications. They are also NOT the homeowner's lawyer. Any homeowner outside or responding to the lawyer, were responsible for their expenses. However, the lawyer would inform them they were not their attorney.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/21/2024 6:52 PM
Does anyone have any sample policy or resolutions about when board members can use an attorney?

I'd like our HOA's policy to be we almost never use an attourney and when we do all board members should be in unanimous agreement, or something similar. I'd like it to have language that all board members must have access to everything discussed or done with an attourney and banning NDA and attourney privlege BS. Especially if it pits one board member against another.

It just seems like I've read tooo many horror stories of one rogue board member racking up ungodly amounts of lawyer fees to save their own ass or satisfy thier own ego, while the rest of the HOA suffers.

Our Declaration states that only the board can hire an attorney. Then the board appoints one of the directors to act as liaison between the board and attorney. Don't do what our board did by appointing the director who never stops talking.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We treated contacting the attorney like any other expenditure. We had an item in our budget and we had to live within our means unless something unforeseen and urgent came up.

Our policy was to call the attorney when the board had voted to do so. In our case, though, our attorney provided unlimited free 15-minute phone calls for general questions. This answered a lot of questions at no extra cost. I get the impression that this is unusual, which may explain why that law firm now has offices in three states - provide a valuable service, and people will beat a path to your door.

Of course, a rogue board member will probably ignore policies. They're sort of like codes of conduct: you can't rely on a piece of paper to rein in people who don't want to be reined in. A code of conduct or a policy can provide concrete evidence of where a director is misbehaving, which can justify the actions you have to take to really address the problem. Remove and replace, in other words.

Should you create a policy? Sure. Just have reasonable expectations about what it will and won't do. Policies are effective for the things they were designed to do, such as guiding future decisions by board members who want to do things properly. They are not effective at doing things they were not designed to do, such as controlling rogues. In the latter case, you need different tools.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Keep in. Ind folks the Board is immune from personal liability when it can be proven that their actions or decisions were reasonable and made in good faith. Acting on your attorney’s advice is that defense.
JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
This is a great topic with lots of sincere comments. HOWEVER (lol)...no one has mentioned the PMCs responsibility to read/understand the HOA's governing documents. This should be a basic responsibility and should/could be the first resource for the BOD. PMC is a vendor with a contract. Yes, if the HOA doesn't have a PMC, and/or it's a unique situation, legal advice is necessary.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The PMC is not a member of the HOA. They are only a contractor to the HOA. Whatever is in the contract the PM is to do is what they do. However that does not always translate into rule enforcement or knowledge.

Former HOA President
JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
Melissa, I identified PMC as a vendor. They work for us(HOA) and should be savvy about a communities basic documents, including local, State, Federal codes.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
WendyM5, I understand your concerns, but in my experience other legalities come massively into play here. E.g. a board majority wants to do xyz, and a board minority says, no, this is not lawful. The board majority refuses to agree to consult the HOA attorney.

Or a director has done something very legally wrong, and becomes what is called "an adverse party." This means this board member cannot have access to the advice of the HOA attorney unless a board majority agrees to this.

I think the best approach is to arrange for an attorney with a contract like what DeanJ and SheliaH described. I think CathyA3's and KerryL1's COAs have had similar approaches. In other words, this approach is catching on. Thank goodness HOA attorneys are figuring out that they spend a lot of time just educating boards. And with a good teacher-lawyer, AFAIC it is time well spent.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
We rarely use an attorney but when we do, the BOD must agree to it. Typically we name the Pres to make contact but there have been times we assigned another BOD member to make the contact.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JackieB4 on 01/22/2024 7:27 AM
This is a great topic with lots of sincere comments. HOWEVER (lol)...no one has mentioned the PMCs responsibility to read/understand the HOA's governing documents. This should be a basic responsibility and should/could be the first resource for the BOD. PMC is a vendor with a contract. Yes, if the HOA doesn't have a PMC, and/or it's a unique situation, legal advice is necessary.

The PMC is almost certainly not a lawyer and the HOA is not their client. The PMC should understand the CC&Rs and whatnot, but they should not be giving the board legal advice or otherwise going beyond the scope of their contract. They can get themselves into a lot of trouble if the board acts on the advice and things go sideways.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
First, as most recent, I agree with Cathy. Sure the PMC should have certain kinds of knowledge about the HOA & its docs, and organizing board meeting, but no board should rely on them for legal advice. Sadly, our current PMC is very weak in knowledge about our governing docs or CA's lengthy HOA statutes.

We've been on retainer with our current HOA attorney ($600/ann) for about 7 years now. Both he and our previous General Counsel (GC) have in their contract that only one board member has the authority to contact them and that member is the president unless the Board approves a different director as liaison. So, I assume this arrangement caught on quite some time ago at least in my region of CA, and, it sounds like in Shelia's area.

Our retainer includes attendance at the annual meeting to oversee the election and inspectors of election, and one board meeting of any kind per year. Also included are unlimited 15 minutes phone calls by the liaison. The Board generally approves the phone calls unless an urgent matter. The phone calls are sometimes made by the director who's seeking information and in those cases, it's a conference call with the president and PMC sitting in.

I would never support that any director can phone our GC at any time. Dean's HOA must be very special to not ever have had "nitwits" on the Board. Of the 30+ directors I served with over 14 years, I'd be horrified if about 10% phoned our GC. One reason alone is that those 10% would ask question that already are answered in our lengthy CC&Rs or our governing docs, or state statute.

And a disgruntled or otherwise angry director should not have access to the HOA attorney. The attorney is the association's GC, not the attorney of any director.

One of the 10% includes a former prez who phoned our previous GC to ask if Board-approved meeting minutes could be subsequently corrected by a vote of the Board. I swear she did! Worse, since Robert's Rules aren't necessarily in the wheelhouse of HOA attorneys, he answered "no." That's when the fight started.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
I have managed hundreds of HOAs over many years and don't use attorneys. I use an attorney's website to provide opinions that over the years have worked just fine.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
The only policy I would recommend would be:

A board may only incur expenses, legal or otherwise, with approval from the board. Approval would be defined as a simple majority vote.

In my opinion, that type of policy shouldn't be needed, as that is how boards are supposed to work.
However, if you need a policy, that is the one I would have.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/22/2024 8:23 PM
The only policy I would recommend would be:

A board may only incur expenses, legal or otherwise, with approval from the board. Approval would be defined as a simple majority vote.

In my opinion, that type of policy shouldn't be needed, as that is how boards are supposed to work.
Well said. I agree with both points above.

I support putting such a statement in the bylaws, because who can talk to the HOA attorney and so cause billable hours is often a matter of dispute.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/22/2024 8:23 PM
The only policy I would recommend would be:

A board may only incur expenses, legal or otherwise, with approval from the board. Approval would be defined as a simple majority vote.

In my opinion, that type of policy shouldn't be needed, as that is how boards are supposed to work.
However, if you need a policy, that is the one I would have.


Actually you make a good point. Legal is a contractor and if you have a board member using a contractor for unapproved services it should be at that members personal cost. No different than a board member telling a contractor to provide unapproved services.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
To Dean's point that's why our contract with our current & previous --because the attorneys wanted it-- specify only one "Board liaison" to contact or phone the attorney even for the retainer's "free" phone calls. So it's impossible for any director to contact him in any way without Board approval.

To actually incur expenses, which in our case usually involves interpretation of our gov. docs or state statute, Board approval is and always has been required.

If a Board wants to amend its Bylaws, which in CA requires USPS mail outs, secret ballots, inspectors of elections, etc., OK. But, with Tim, I think a board resolution/ decision setting such a policy is entirely satisfactory. On this forum I've never seen disputes about who may talk to the attorney/or about what.

I'd never approve that individual directors may contact the Assoc. attorney even at their own expense. This easily could involve a potential conflict of interest for the HOA attorney.
BrendaP5 (Tennessee)
Posts: 44
Posted:
The ones u dealt with must not have felt large and in charge.We have the biggest bunch of wannabes but it’s all about superiority and that always causes for attorneys

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here