A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
← Return to Topics List

Punitive measures against the hoa

Started by ElaineT • 16 replies • 279 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

ElaineT (Vermont)
Posts: 21
Posted:
Which states have punitive measures against the HOA when the resident wins the case. In California, if the resident wins a lawsuit, The board must pay the resident’s legal fees and the HOA is fined $500.00 for each violation stated in the court case
Do any other states have the provision of a fine for each violation?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I don't think you can generalize by state. Awarding of attorney fees to the winter is usually decided by the court, since whether it's reasonable will depend on the facts of each case. State laws simply allow for the option.

FWIW, I've never heard of any state that forbids it or requires it in all cases.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/18/2024 1:28 PM
I don't think you can generalize by state. Awarding of attorney fees to the winter is usually decided by the court, since whether it's reasonable will depend on the facts of each case. State laws simply allow for the option.

FWIW, I've never heard of any state that forbids it or requires it in all cases.

Winner

Yes, there's a snowstorm about to hit us.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElaineT on 01/18/2024 12:18 PM
Which states have punitive measures against the HOA when the resident wins the case. In California, if the resident wins a lawsuit, The board must pay the resident’s legal fees and the HOA is fined $500.00 for each violation stated in the court case
This is not accurate. For certain types of violations by the HOA board pertaining to elections and records inspections, California statutes permit the judge to either impose a small-ish civil penalty; order the HOA pay the owner's attorney fees; or both (or roughly both). If you are interested in the details, start searching the davis-stirling.com site
Quote:
Posted By ElaineT on 01/18/2024 12:18 PM
Do any other states have the provision of a fine for each violation?
At least two other states have civil penalties fines for a highly limited number of owner-hoa disputes.

What are you up to?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The board does not pay. Every single member pays. So if the HOA loses the judge decides who pays what if anything. Can pay for your own expenses. You can not choose it be only the board. They just represent the HOA. The money will come from the dues of everyone.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors no matter how you slice it. It is a consequence.
Former HOA President
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/18/2024 6:29 PM
The board does not pay. Every single member pays. So if the HOA loses the judge decides who pays what if anything. Can pay for your own expenses. You can not choose it be only the board. They just represent the HOA. The money will come from the dues of everyone.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors no matter how you slice it. It is a consequence.

In a 100 member HOA, 1% of yourself.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Yes. Still sued yourself. Better make it worth it.
Former HOA President
FreddieM1 (Georgia)
Posts: 3
Posted:
So I believe the residents of our Georgia community have solved our budget approval process. I'll explain: Our Declaration states: "It takes 2/3 vote of the members to disallow the budget request at the annual meeting." I believe that statement should be amended by us to read: It takes 2/3 vote to approve the budget request at the annual meeting. Now the board has to sell us the idea of an increase. They will have to do their jobs and convince us that an actual increase is necessary. I can't believe that we have to disallow instead of approve our budget. We will do the change by door to door signatures on a petition. We believe the residents are sick of the budget increase being shoved down our throat. We have had increases the last three years.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FreddieM1 on 01/19/2024 6:13 AM
So I believe the residents of our Georgia community have solved our budget approval process. I'll explain: Our Declaration states: "It takes 2/3 vote of the members to disallow the budget request at the annual meeting." I believe that statement should be amended by us to read: It takes 2/3 vote to approve the budget request at the annual meeting. Now the board has to sell us the idea of an increase. They will have to do their jobs and convince us that an actual increase is necessary. I can't believe that we have to disallow instead of approve our budget. We will do the change by door to door signatures on a petition. We believe the residents are sick of the budget increase being shoved down our throat. We have had increases the last three years.

If I lived in an HOA that amended the declaration to require a 2/3 vote of the members to approve a budget increase, I would call a realtor that day and sell my home. Hope you enjoy your run down community.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 01/19/2024 6:35 AM
Posted By FreddieM1 on 01/19/2024 6:13 AM
So I believe the residents of our Georgia community have solved our budget approval process. I'll explain: Our Declaration states: "It takes 2/3 vote of the members to disallow the budget request at the annual meeting." I believe that statement should be amended by us to read: It takes 2/3 vote to approve the budget request at the annual meeting. Now the board has to sell us the idea of an increase. They will have to do their jobs and convince us that an actual increase is necessary. I can't believe that we have to disallow instead of approve our budget. We will do the change by door to door signatures on a petition. We believe the residents are sick of the budget increase being shoved down our throat. We have had increases the last three years.


If I lived in an HOA that amended the declaration to require a 2/3 vote of the members to approve a budget increase, I would call a realtor that day and sell my home. Hope you enjoy your run down community.


I agree.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 01/19/2024 7:13 AM
Posted By DeanJ on 01/19/2024 6:35 AM
Posted By FreddieM1 on 01/19/2024 6:13 AM
So I believe the residents of our Georgia community have solved our budget approval process. I'll explain: Our Declaration states: "It takes 2/3 vote of the members to disallow the budget request at the annual meeting." I believe that statement should be amended by us to read: It takes 2/3 vote to approve the budget request at the annual meeting. Now the board has to sell us the idea of an increase. They will have to do their jobs and convince us that an actual increase is necessary. I can't believe that we have to disallow instead of approve our budget. We will do the change by door to door signatures on a petition. We believe the residents are sick of the budget increase being shoved down our throat. We have had increases the last three years.


If I lived in an HOA that amended the declaration to require a 2/3 vote of the members to approve a budget increase, I would call a realtor that day and sell my home. Hope you enjoy your run down community.



I agree.

Me too. Most homeowners are uninformed about the actual costs of running an HOA. If you make it so 2/3 of the members have to approve a new budget, you will never get a new budget. If people who are unaware of the actual costs (like increases in insurance, utilities, lawn service and management contracts, etc.) are given a choice between keeping it the same and raising it - the majority will choose keeping the rate the same. They just know they don't want a bigger bill. Something is going to have to give and it's going to show in the community.

There are communities with bad boards who may be raising assessments for reasons other than increased costs. But I don't think there's that many.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Ditto, and I probably would call the realtor the minute discussions like this started - because it's clear the community doesn't understand the basics of HOA governance..

To summarize one of my usual rants (which the regulars have heard before):

Board members have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the association. Homeowners have no such duty - they may act in their own self-interest, even if that self-interest is contrary to what's best for the community. Who do you want in charge of the financial decisions?

I call provisions that put homeowners in charge "a license to commit financial suicide". Worse, in states that cap annual assessment increases, homeowners can dig themselves into a financial hole that they won't be able to get back out of.

It's ironic that laws like this are often painted as "consumer protection". What they do is allow owners to destroy something that, for most individuals, makes up the bulk of their net worth. On the other hand, the professional investors will be happy to scoop up distressed properties. (When I'm in a Conspiracy Theorist mood, I wonder whether these laws aren't some long-game maneuver to line the investors' pockets. The only reason I don't buy it is that most folks don't think that far ahead However, I'm willing to be persuaded ...)

And I think this is in the wrong thread...
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Discussion of amending governing docs here:

https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/364652/view/topic/Default.aspx
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FreddieM1 on 01/19/2024 6:13 AM

We will do the change by door to door signatures on a petition. We believe the residents are sick of the budget increase being shoved down our throat. We have had increases the last three years.

Fair warning, where I live we have to have notarized signatures of everyone voting in favor of the change in order for the amendment to be legal.

Might suggest someone apply and become a notary. This way, they can notarize the forms (for free) as the signatures are obtained. Otherwise, you may have to go back and collect them again, so the member can sign in front of the notary.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FreddieM1 on 01/19/2024 6:13 AM
... snip ...

We believe the residents are sick of the budget increase being shoved down our throat. We have had increases the last three years.

You are aware, of course, that there has been significant inflation in the economy during that time. Meanwhile the housing market has been on fire, which has further driven up costs of materials used by the building industry and by HOAs that are making repairs.

Which budget items do you believe they should cut? Because that's what you're asking for.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FreddieM1 on 01/19/2024 6:13 AM
So I believe the residents of our Georgia community have solved our budget approval process. I'll explain: Our Declaration states: "It takes 2/3 vote of the members to disallow the budget request at the annual meeting." I believe that statement should be amended by us to read: It takes 2/3 vote to approve the budget request at the annual meeting. Now the board has to sell us the idea of an increase. They will have to do their jobs and convince us that an actual increase is necessary.
Or you could run for the board with others who feel as you do. What do you say? What is holding you back?

Getting elected to the board is likely much easier than getting an amendment to the Declaration.

I agree with the others: The Declaration, Bylaws and state statutes should not in general require owners' approval of the budget.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
The problem with that high of an approval requirement is that it might never be obtained.

In my current Association, we have a 2/3 requirement for a quorum.
In the past 21 years, we only achieved quorum once.

What maintenance would you recommend the board defer or never accomplish if 2/3 can't be reached (as is likely)?
Should the board drop insurance (that may or may not be mandated by the State) if they can't afford it?
How easy is it for the Association to adopt a special assessment (which would be needed if funds are not available)?
Do you think realtors will continue to drive clients to your community if special assessments are needed every year or common area/elements are not properly maintained (i.e. property values)?

Please don't take this as an attack.
Granted, some wording on posts could be better so as not to appear as an attack.

The goal is to show both the perceived pros and the perceived cons.

All decisions have consequences.
Some of the consequences are considered, some are not thought of.
The more consequences that are considered will allow the member to make an informed decision.
Often, the fully informed decision is the right one.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here

Terms of Use and Privacy Statement